Nightmare and Dream (LS2, EoD, PoF spoilers)

[Mephu Tahm Jr.7286]

18 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

This is not how Revenants work in GW2's lore, it has nothing to do with positive and negatives. A gw2 Revenant channels the Echos that powerfully individuals or beings imprint upon the Mists. This can be the echos left by a villainous individual like Shiro, or it can be a heroic individual like King Jalis.

The Real World definition of Revenant is as follows: "Denoting “one that returns after death or a long absence,” revenant is a borrowing from French that was originally formed from the present participle of the verb revenir ("to return"). It literally means “one coming back,” either from another place or from the dead."

 

Yes, but Mai's channeling of Scarlet became negative and had to be defeated. I believe they did a good job presenting the lore of Revenant in that instance, because with the PC obviously you cannot have what happened when Mai channeled Scarlet for actual Revenant gameplay.

 

The real world definition applies since harnessing an echo of an individual can be interpreted as them "returning". An echo is technically a return of something that was sent out.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:15 AM, Mephu Tahm Jr.7286 said:

Heck, the Mists don't have a physical location either. But they exist too, and they affect reality.

Therefore, these highly theoretical topics have any amount of possibilities of being linked in various ways.

The Mists does have a physical location, and we know this because we can physically enter the Mists, and see NPCs do the same. Unlike the Dream of Dreams where they have to leave their body behind and basically experience an out of body situation, traversing the Mists is fully physical.

On 4/12/2023 at 3:15 AM, Mephu Tahm Jr.7286 said:

But there is nothing to prove that these statements definitely mean death, and furthermore, in the GW2 universe, the word death itself has many meanings and manifestations.

She says it right before she dies.
It's a common saying about peacefully dying.
I'd say that's proof enough.

And no, death is death. The only thing about death in the GW2 universe that's different meaning/manifestation, is the fact that souls are proven to exist.

4 hours ago, Mephu Tahm Jr.7286 said:

Yes, but Mai's channeling of Scarlet became negative and had to be defeated. I believe they did a good job presenting the lore of Revenant in that instance, because with the PC obviously you cannot have what happened when Mai channeled Scarlet for actual Revenant gameplay.

The real world definition applies since harnessing an echo of an individual can be interpreted as them "returning". An echo is technically a return of something that was sent out.

Either you're not very clear in what you mean, or you're associating false equivalences. The echo of Scarlet Briar did not "become negative" - Mai Trin simply lost control.

And an echo is not the return of something, as it is not the original being - it's a copy. A disembodied clone, so to speak. The Mists did not click "return to sender", it pressed ctrl+c then ctrl+v.

Also, classical revenants are a type of undead - for example, from East European folklore and mythology. Usually the undead body of a soldier returning home (in a not-too-cheery way) after dying in a far off war, for example.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Unlike the Dream of Dreams where they have to leave their body behind and basically experience an out of body situation, traversing the Mists is fully physical.

From the level 10 Norn personal story, guard the Mists branch:

Quote

Havroun Svena: Valda's condition has not improved. I believe her spirit is stuck between this world and the Mists. She cannot return fully to her body.

<Character name>: How is that possible?

Havroun Svena: Havrouns can physically enter the Mists, but we can also leave our bodies behind and send just the spirit. It is extremely difficult.

And there are creatures that exist both in the Sylvari Dream and physically in Tyria, such as The Pale Tree, The White Stag, and The Shadow of the Dragon.

We haven't physically been to the Dream so far as I'm aware, but nothing I can recall states it is entirely impossible. It's just unprecedented.

We don't really know enough about the place to warrant such concrete distinctions. Even the Pale Tree admits she doesn't fully understand it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

20 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

From the level 10 Norn personal story, guard the Mists branch:

Yes, the Havrouns are capable of some variations of spirit walking. That doesn't change the fact that every other way to enter the Mists we've seen is physical.

The Havrouns and Kodan Voices are the only cases known of entering the Mists while living your physical body behind, without dying.

20 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

And there are creatures that exist both in the Sylvari Dream and physically in Tyria, such as The Pale Tree, The White Stag, and The Shadow of the Dragon.

We haven't physically been to the Dream so far as I'm aware, but nothing I can recall states it is entirely impossible. It's just unprecedented.

We don't really know enough about the place to warrant such concrete distinctions. Even the Pale Tree admits she doesn't fully understand it.

Technically everyone connected to the Dream exists in both the Dream and Tyria simultaneously, because by all statements and evidence the Dream is nothing more than a mindscape.

It's not stated to be impossible, but it's not even implied to be potentially possible. It's not just unprecedented, it's not even hypothesized to be possible. Sure some time in the future ANet may write a plot where we do physically enter the Dream, but that would be the introduction of the implication that such is possible. Just as PoF showed us sylvari souls, when it was never really suggested they could have souls before (esp. with the dragon minion revelation).

But if we start theorizing about things being possible without it even being implied or hinted at being possible, then there'd be no end to the "possibilities", let alone any amount of proper discussion about the matter.

Might as well say things like "Grenth is actually his own grandfather and will travel back in time to become the Void".

[mandala.8507]

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Might as well say things like "Grenth is actually his own grandfather and will travel back in time to become the Void".

Sounds like a fun time, sign me up 🙂

24 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yes, the Havrouns are capable of some variations of spirit walking. That doesn't change the fact that every other way to enter the Mists we've seen is physical.

Oh, and here's Aurene doing it too in Visions of the Past:

Quote

Aurene: I won't be able to fight with you this time, Champion. But I'll be here...and in the Mists...

And if we take the wording from this End of Dragons trailer where Soo-Won mentions she's been conversing with Aurene through the Mists, we could maybe ground some of the above theories within this thread in actual lore and world-building:

Maybe the Dream and Soo-Won's mindscape are part of the Mists. Who knows.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

45 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Sounds like a fun time, sign me up 🙂

Oh, and here's Aurene doing it too in Visions of the Past:

And if we take the wording from this End of Dragons trailer where Soo-Won mentions she's been conversing with Aurene through the Mists, we could maybe ground some of the above theories within this thread in actual lore and world-building:

Maybe the Dream and Soo-Won's mindscape are part of the Mists. Who knows.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't interpret Soo-Won as "talking to Aurene through the Mists", and we've seen no actual evidence that Aurene was being literal (why couldn't she be in Tyria and the Mists at the same time during EoD Aetherblade fleet battle?)

That is irrelevant, however, to the fact that the Mists is still a physical place that people physically enter 99.99% of the time. Every instance in GW1, and almost every instance in GW2, is people entering physically, with their bodies.

0% of the times people enter the Dream do they enter with their physical body. Even unborn sylvari who're in the Dreams have a physical body being formed in pods.

[mandala.8507]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That is irrelevant, however, to the fact that the Mists is still a physical place that people physically enter 99.99% of the time. Every instance in GW1, and almost every instance in GW2, is people entering physically, with their bodies.

There are 20k unique instances across the games where people enter the Mists physically?! Wow, this studio is so amazing!!!

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

22 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

There are 20k unique instances across the games where people enter the Mists physically?! Wow, this studio is so amazing!!!

Technically, since every single match of Heroes' Ascent in GW1 was physically entering the Mists. 😛

As is every single time a player enters sPvP or WvW in GW2!

So your sarcastic hyperbole actually works in my favor of being accurate.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

52 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Technically, since every single match of Heroes' Ascent in GW1 was physically entering the Mists. 😛

As is every single time a player enters sPvP or WvW in GW2!

So your sarcastic hyperbole actually works in my favor of being accurate.

23 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

unique

So, this is an adjective and it's used to describe things that are unlike anything else. I'm meaning it in the way it is used to describe ascended trinkets. If you asked me how many non-stat-selectable ascended berserker rings that you can buy with pristine fractal relics there are in the game, you could say that there are indiscernible multitudes of them in the game; because you can have more than 1 and so many players have them. But if I asked you how many unique non-stat-selectable ascended berserker rings there are in the game that you can buy with pristine fractal relics, then the answer would be just two.

Thanks for crediting me for your hyperbole, though. 😜

Maybe someday we'll be discussing actual lore in these threads instead of arguing over semantics or spewing groundless grievances with the devs' narrative choices. *wistfully stares into the distance*

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

So, this is an adjective and it's used to describe things that are unlike anything else. I'm meaning it in the way it is used to describe ascended trinkets.

Well since you want to retain hyperbole and semantic arguing when you KNOW that I wasn't being literal in the first place as you point out that, yes, I was being a bit hyperbolic...
Every single player entering HA, sPvP, or WvW (let alone the plethora of quests, missions, and dungeons) for the first time would be indeed unlike the rest of the players entering and thus be a unique entrance into the Mists. As both games have held over a million players at their peaks, with a significant number of people entering the Mists instances each, that would count. Under your hyperbolic response, then it would probably be closer to 99.9999% of the time.
That is, if you want to continue arguing semantics in a very, very pointless discussion you began since it still doesn't matter if one can enter the Mists while leaving their physical body in Tyria, as the Mists is proven outright to be physical and entered physically in 15 unique per player occasions in GW1, let alone GW2, and let alone NPC cases which probably over double the GW1 number alone.

I'm honestly not entirely sure why you thought to bring up the argument of two proven, and two argumentative examples of "entering the Mists non-physically" when I never said you couldn't enter the Mists non-physically, just that the fact you could proved it was a physical place - unlike the Dream, where you cannot under any stated or implied means.

13 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Maybe someday we'll be discussing actual lore in these threads instead of arguing over semantics or spewing groundless grievances with the devs' narrative choices. *wistfully stares into the distance*

Well, I certainly was discussing actual lore, and the possibility of Nightmare being tied to Nightmare Horde and Nightmares, and the potential distinction between "Nightmare" and "Mesmer", before you came into this discussion with your semantic argument that didn't actually alter what I stated in the first place about the Mists being physical.

Since you seem to be unaware of simple logic. Here's a simple example:

• All cases of A happen metaphysically.
• Some cases of B happen physically.
• Therefore, A and B are not the same.

This is what I said. This is what you threw in the middle:

• Some cases of B happen metaphysically.

This doesn't change the logical argument, as it is not contradictory to my second statement because some cases of B still happen physically. Therefore, the conclusion that A (the Dream) and B (the Mists) are different is still accurate. A statement that would change the logical argument would be:

• Some cases of A happen physically.

However, as I pointed out, there is no evidence of this happening or being implied to be possible. So making that claim would - currently - be a false statement.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[mandala.8507]

I don't know @Konig Des Todes.2086; seems like you're changing your story here. From my view, you were putting down someone else's speculation with less than sound references to the lore.

So I chimed in to correct the record on some of the erroneously disqualifying factors you were weaponizing against that other person.

Let's read your statement again, shall we:

On 4/13/2023 at 7:13 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The Mists does have a physical location, and we know this because we can physically enter the Mists, and see NPCs do the same. Unlike the Dream of Dreams where they have to leave their body behind and basically experience an out of body situation, traversing the Mists is fully physical.

And so I quoted this exchange from the personal story to refute your claim that "traversing the Mists is fully physical":

On 4/13/2023 at 2:01 PM, mandala.8507 said:

Havroun Svena: Valda's condition has not improved. I believe her spirit is stuck between this world and the Mists. She cannot return fully to her body.

<Character name>: How is that possible?

Havroun Svena: Havrouns can physically enter the Mists, but we can also leave our bodies behind and send just the spirit. It is extremely difficult.

Then, realizing your absolute statement was not entirely correct, you conceded that:

On 4/14/2023 at 10:19 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yes, the Havrouns are capable of some variations of spirit walking. That doesn't change the fact that every other way to enter the Mists we've seen is physical.

The Havrouns and Kodan Voices are the only cases known of entering the Mists while living your physical body behind, without dying.

But again, you made another false statement, so I followed up with this quote from Aurene in IBS:

On 4/14/2023 at 10:56 AM, mandala.8507 said:

Aurene: I won't be able to fight with you this time, Champion. But I'll be here...and in the Mists...

...showcasing that there are considerable examples of traversing the Mists in not "fully physical" ways.

We then have a pretty pointless back and forth about irrelevant details and implied meanings.

Unfortunately, you finally decide to double down on your initial argument despite it being now less supported by the lore than you had thought it to be at first and hit me with this lovely gem:

52 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Since you seem to be unaware of simple logic. Here's a simple example:

• All cases of A happen metaphysically.
• Some cases of B happen physically.
• Therefore, A and B are not the same.

This is what I said. This is what you threw in the middle:

• Some cases of B happen metaphysically.

This doesn't change the logical argument, as it is not contradictory to my second statement because some cases of B still happen physically. Therefore, the conclusion that A (the Dream) and B (the Mists) are different is still accurate. A statement that would change the logical argument would be:

• Some cases of A happen physically.

Now, to respond quickly to this interesting logical construct of yours: The big point of contention within the context of "could the Mists and the Dream of Dreams be the same (or the Dream of Dreams be part of the Mists)" that you are hung up on is that "Some cases of A happen physically" has no precedent in the lore.

And so far as I can recall, you are correct. There is no confirmed precedent for a physical entity entering and traversing the Dream of Dreams physically. Although I did mention a few unconfirmed/unclear cases here:

On 4/13/2023 at 2:01 PM, mandala.8507 said:

And there are creatures that exist both in the Sylvari Dream and physically in Tyria, such as The Pale Tree, The White Stag, and The Shadow of the Dragon.

We haven't physically been to the Dream so far as I'm aware, but nothing I can recall states it is entirely impossible. It's just unprecedented.

We don't really know enough about the place to warrant such concrete distinctions. Even the Pale Tree admits she doesn't fully understand it.

As I said in that comment, this in no way means that it could never happen. This is where you logic falls apart.

You're saying that:

Since we don't know of any cases of A happening physically, we must assume that cases of A can't happen physically, and therefore (because of this bold assumption) that A and B cannot be the same.

I don't agree with your assertion here and sadly I don't see much logic in it. Besides that, I don't see much point in insisting theories suggesting "cases of A could happen physically in the future" and therefore that "A and B could be the same or related phenomenon" are in need of correction or admonishment. I think you overstepped, grounded your reasoning in faulty logic and a lack of memory concerning the lore, and then refused to amend your verdict.

There are plenty of references within the game to the similarities between the Mists and the Dream of Dreams, and I for one would be more surprised if they were not in some way related or part of the same whole than if it turned out that they were.

My purpose in refuting your claims initially was not to make a superfluous/arbitrary semantical argument, but to give life back to the theories you were misguidedly attempting to kill — to supply oxygen to the fire you were mistakenly snuffing out.

And I do believe you are mistaken here.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

I don't know @Konig Des Todes.2086; seems like you're changing your story here. From my view, you were putting down someone else's speculation with less than sound references to the lore.

So I chimed in to correct the record on some of the erroneously disqualifying factors you were weaponizing against that other person.

Let's read your statement again, shall we:

Quote

The Mists does have a physical location, and we know this because we can physically enter the Mists, and see NPCs do the same. Unlike the Dream of Dreams where they have to leave their body behind and basically experience an out of body situation, traversing the Mists is fully physical.

And so I quoted this exchange from the personal story to refute your claim that "traversing the Mists is fully physical":

And where in that original statement do I state that you can only enter the Mists physically?
I said, as you quoted, we can physically enter the Mists. Unlike the Dream, where they have to leave their body behind.

As to "putting down someone else's speculation" - please see my signature.

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

But again, you made another false statement, so I followed up with this quote from Aurene in IBS:

...showcasing that there are considerable examples of traversing the Mists in not "fully physical" ways.

Except that there's no hard evidence that Aurene or Soo-Won were entering the Mists while leaving their physical body behind. Aurene says she "will be here, and in the Mists" - but she never says that she'll be there and in the Mists at the same time, nor does she say she'll be entering the Mists without her physical body. And Soo-Won only says she hears Aurene through the Mists, which doesn't imply entering the Mists at all.

So was my statement truly false? We have no concrete evidence they they do, and even if they did oh my no, how dare I forget something. Clearly to you it's an inhumane crime to forget something. Allow me to enter isolation until I have picture perfect memory.

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

Now, to respond quickly to this interesting logical construct of yours: The big point of contention within the context of "could the Mists and the Dream of Dreams be the same (or the Dream of Dreams be part of the Mists)" that you are hung up on is that "Some cases of A happen physically" has no precedent in the lore.

And so far as I can recall, you are correct. There is no confirmed precedent for a physical entity entering and traversing the Dream of Dreams physically. Although I did mention a few unconfirmed/unclear cases here:

As I said in that comment, this in no way means that it could never happen. This is where you logic falls apart.

No, that doesn't make the logic fall apart any more than it makes me able to stand on the Sun without melting. Because you're just talking unfounded hypotheticals, which do not hold weight in any logical argument that are based on proven facts.

[mandala.8507]

Cool to see you're just straight up gaslighting me now.

Oh, and I realized we do enter the Dream physically in the A Light in the Darkness instance in the personal story. The Pale Tree summons a portal and we enter the Dream through that portal.

 Within the Dream she gifts Caladbolg to Trahearne, and when we leave the Dream, he has it in his possession. She also delivers this line:

Quote

Avatar of the Tree: Once more, you stand on sacred ground. Remember what you have seen. Speak with me, and I will guide you.

Implying we physically left the Omphalos Chamber and entered the Dream with our bodies.

So I was mistaken — you were never correct after all. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Cool to see you're just straight up gaslighting me now.

gas·light

verb

1. manipulate (someone) using psychological methods into questioning their own sanity or powers of reasoning.

I think people reading this thread will be able to tell that I wasn't gaslighting you at any point. Either you don't know the meaning of the word and are just throwing things out to sound smart, or you're trying to manipulate the argument to make people question my ability to reason and discuss.

Either way, I'm done here. And since this is now the, what, fifth time I've tried beginning a debate that devolved into you insulting me directly, I'm also blocking you and reporting this.

I feel sorry for @Mephu Tahm Jr.7286 that you hijacked his thread just to be asinine towards me out of nowhere.

[mandala.8507]

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Except that there's no hard evidence that Aurene or Soo-Won were entering the Mists while leaving their physical body behind. Aurene says she "will be here, and in the Mists" - but she never says that she'll be there and in the Mists at the same time, nor does she say she'll be entering the Mists without her physical body. And Soo-Won only says she hears Aurene through the Mists, which doesn't imply entering the Mists at all.

From the Eye of the North dialogue after we're brought there at the end of Shadow in the Ice:

Quote

PC: Where are we?

Aurene: The Eye of the North. A confluence of energies drew me here. It's a place of tremendous power, connected through time.

 PC: What have you been doing this whole time?

Aurene: Learning. Mending. Listening. Elder Dragons are burdened with more than we could possibly have known.

Aurene: You see me here, you speak with me, but I'm also in the Mists, repairing the damage Kralkatorrik caused.

Aurene: I am...a part of everything. All the magic of this world, like blood in my veins. I feel it all the time.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hi Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil.

Regards.