Buuuuff offhaaaand daaaagger (PvE)

[DungeonMaster.3012]

You are fully aware that warhorn dominates offhand especially in the power department. And you did nothing about it aside from increasing the power scaling of daggers "ring of fire" which is whatever. You realize this skill doesnt tick?

Is it incompetence or is this on purpose so ele mains will buy the expansion so they can use warhorn? Because I did that.

It would be fine if offhand dagger has something else going for but it doesnt. Warhorn has much better damage and much better support skills. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by DungeonMaster.3012

[Friend.2837]

Dagger has:

- Much better burst that you have access to frequently (every time you go to air-air), making it the go-to for fractals and bosses with many phases (Sloth, Samarog)

- No reliance on an enemy standing in your AoEs (Matthias and Deimos walk around a lot)

- Decent CC as opposed to Warhorn's pathetic CC

- A more fluid and arguably easier rotation

RoF buff put dagger at 41.5k bench; at ~1.2k below warhorn, dagger is in a perfectly fine spot (I wouldn't mind if if were a tad bit better, but too much and they will just nerf it).

You seem to be stuck at SOTO release. Calm down, things are fine.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Friend.2837

[DungeonMaster.3012]

59 minutes ago, Friend.2837 said:

Dagger has:

- Much better burst that you have access to frequently (every time you go to air-air), making it the go-to for fractals and bosses with many phases (Sloth, Samarog)

- No reliance on an enemy standing in your AoEs (Matthias and Deimos walk around a lot)

- Decent CC as opposed to Warhorn's pathetic CC

- A more fluid and arguably easier rotation

RoF buff put dagger at 41.5k bench; at ~1.2k below warhorn, dagger is in a perfectly fine spot (I wouldn't mind if if were a tad bit better, but too much and they will just nerf it).

You seem to be stuck at SOTO release. Calm down, things are fine.

"Much better burst"
It does have better burst but it isnt nearly as good as you make it out to be. Not much difference in the Samarog encounter.

"No reliance on an enemy standing in your AoEs"
Doesn't matter, because for those bosses you wouldn't play power ele. You will  still  be constraint by the field of Fire Sword 2.  Deimos is also a bad example because he will stay longer than 10sec between blacks.

"Decent CC as opposed to Warhorn's pathetic CC"
That's just a lie. It's the exact same cc unless you attune to earth for earthquake which is just 200 breakbar.

"A more fluid and arguably easier rotation"
Ok? You only use 2 skills on warhorn for dps which both have short cast time.

"RoF buff put dagger at 41.5k bench; at ~1.2k below warhorn"
Not sure where you got these number from, but with warhorn im doing 38k, with dagger 35-36k. I very much doubt its just 1,2k.

"You seem to be stuck at SOTO release"
Just read a post saying that you've been playing for only a year and yet you say this? Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by DungeonMaster.3012

[Friend.2837]

1 hour ago, DungeonMaster.3012 said:

"Much better burst"
It does have better burst but it isnt nearly as good as you make it out to be. Not much difference in the Samarog encounter.

"No reliance on an enemy standing in your AoEs"
Doesn't matter, because for those bosses you wouldn't play power ele. You will  still  be constraint by the field of Fire Sword 2.  Deimos is also a bad example because he will stay longer than 10sec between blacks.

"Decent CC as opposed to Warhorn's pathetic CC"
That's just a lie. It's the exact same cc unless you attune to earth for earthquake which is just 200 breakbar.

"A more fluid and arguably easier rotation"
Ok? You only use 2 skills on warhorn for dps which both have short cast time.

"RoF buff put dagger at 41.5k bench; at ~1.2k below warhorn"
Not sure where you got these number from, but with warhorn im doing 38k, with dagger 35-36k. I very much doubt its just 1,2k.

"You seem to be stuck at SOTO release"
Just read a post saying that you've been playing for only a year and yet you say this? Jesus Christ.

On the subjective points:

- I'll give you this one and take off the "much" for general situations. However, it remains that dagger is strictly superior in fractal CMs because of the *frequency* that you can perform the burst with dagger offhand (up every loop). For shorter burst windows dagger is also indeed much better (<=10s). If you're really not convinced, let me know and tomorrow I can pull up the burst comparison charts for you.

- Flame uprising ticks for 2 seconds. Wildfire ticks for 8. 8 seconds is a longer time to need a boss to stand in a field than 2 seconds. You speak like a competent raider so I assume you know full well that pugs have a tendency to drag Deimos everywhere.

- Warhorn rotation is scuffy because the first pyro vortex you cast after ending the weave self loop is in a/f instead of f/a, and the rotation needs to be adjusted accordingly. It's not the end of the world, but it is a bit more complex. Your warhorn offhand skills also do not line up perfectly at the exact same time every loop like dagger does. This is big for refining muscle memory.

- Also, warhorn weave self rotation is much tighter and you are punished more for skipping the final air in f/f-a/f-w/a before going into water. Dagger can go f/f-w/f without losing much. I would argue this is a big pro in hectic encounters.

As for CC, this is not a debate. Snowcrows themselves and every good weaver player will recommend dagger for fights where CC is needed. See here:

https://snowcrows.com/builds/elementalist/weaver/power-weaver

We simply compare warhorn cyclone, 150cc on a 25s cd, to updraft, 332cc on a 20s cd. It is not even close. Warhorn does have utility. Its utility is in boon extensions, not cc.

Also glad you brought up Samarog here! If you play warhorn on Samarog you are semi trolling your group when you could bring dagger, do the same damage (likely more in high DPS groups), and not GIGA leech cc + help with Rigom push 

Regarding  the 41.5k bench, here you go bud, it's ok to be misinformed:

With all due respect you are simply bad at the dagger rotation.

If you're going to try to discredit me because I haven't played for long, here is me benching significantly higher than you on both weapon sets:

https://dps.report/1uAb-pweaverwhbench_golem

https://dps.report/9n6j-pweaverbench_golem

I actively raid and am making my way into optimized fractal & strike CM groups. I tend to perform very well as a DPS player in any group I join, so I don't know what your point is. You even went into some of my old posts and reacted with confused. I can't lie, that isn't too classy.

Just for good measure, here's some evidence that I did in fact play the content that I said I did with some regularity:

https://killproof.me/proof/kwgkk

I apologize for being somewhat adversarial, but I hope that you can take my points for what they are. There is no need to be defensive. I also get that you might want dagger buffs, but please try to be objective.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Friend.2837

[DungeonMaster.3012]

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"Subjective points"

We literally have data on  most of these points. 

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" I'll give you this one and take off the "much" for general situations. However, it remains that dagger is strictly superior in fractal CMs because of the *frequency* that you can perform the burst with dagger offhand (up every loop). For shorter burst windows dagger is also indeed much better (<=10s). If you're really not convinced, let me know and tomorrow I can pull up the burst comparison charts for you."

You dont know this. The 97 and 98 Fractal CMs are a relic of the past. They are around 5-6 years old where power creep wasnt this huge. You really shouldnt use bosses where half of the mechanics get skipped as a norm.

Quote

"- Flame uprising ticks for 2 seconds. Wildfire ticks for 8. 8 seconds is a longer time to need a boss to stand in a field than 2 seconds. You speak like a competent raider so I assume you know full well that pugs have a tendency to drag Deimos everywhere."

Again wrong. Every single dps ele uses "Persisting Flames" and that has been the case for almost a decade. In other words it's 4 sec for flame uprising and wildfire ticks for 10 seconds.

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"- Also, warhorn weave self rotation is much tighter and you are punished more for skipping the final air in f/f-a/f-w/a before going into water. Dagger can go f/f-w/f without losing much. I would argue this is a big pro in hectic encounters."

I literally skipped that and still get 39,5k. Anyway if there is an hectic ecounter you wouldnt use "BttH" build but "Fresh Air". I just tested "Fresh Air" with warhorn and i get 38,5k. You only lose 1k but your rotation will be so much more flexible. A good trade off.

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"As for CC, this is not a debate. Snowcrows themselves and every good weaver player will recommend dagger for fights where CC is needed. See here:"

If you are desperate for CC and stuck with only weaver maybe. But the difference between dagger and warhorn is so tiny (232 Updraft vs 150 Cyclone) and Earthquake isn't reliable since you need to attune to earth. You would be much better off playing other classes like spellbreaker which have like 700 breakbar with one skill.

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"We simply compare warhorn cyclone, 150cc on a 25s cd, to updraft, 332cc on a 20s cd"

Another lie. It's just 232 for Updraft and nothing compared to other classes. Have you ever used focus? It has an air skill which does 400. Now that's a difference.

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"With all due respect you are simply bad at the dagger rotation." 

Give me a break. It's like 10% below the benchmark.

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"There is no need to be defensive."

You are very passive agressive in every second sentence if u haven't noticed. I'm done.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by DungeonMaster.3012

[Friend.2837]

Brother I said subjective because I acknowledge that those points are my opinions, so I'm further supporting them.

Good point on the persisting flames. 10s is more than 4s then. Happy?

I really want to inform you about updraft so I hope you see this:

"The Defiance Break displays 232 instead of 332."

That's from the wiki. The more you know!

You're just pulling whatever out of your kitten about the CC now. You know you're wrong but you're just stubborn because you want to argue with me. Come on now.

And wow, you got a big improvement in your bench overnight. Congratulations!

"Not sure where you got these number from, but with warhorn im doing 38k, with dagger 35-36k. I very much doubt its just 1,2k."

Anyways.

It really does not seem like you're interested in having a productive discussion either, so cya and keep coping I guess. No point wasting words on... Whatever.

Please do post the logs of your benches before you go. You seem to be innovating quite a bit with your rotations and I'm genuinely curious how you're playing fresh air - I love that setup! 🫡

Edited December 2, 2023 by Friend.2837

[DungeonMaster.3012]

17 hours ago, Friend.2837 said:

Brother I said subjective because I acknowledge that those points are my opinions, so I'm further supporting them.

Good point on the persisting flames. 10s is more than 4s then. Happy?

I really want to inform you about updraft so I hope you see this:

"The Defiance Break displays 232 instead of 332."

That's from the wiki. The more you know!

You're just pulling whatever out of your kitten about the CC now. You know you're wrong but you're just stubborn because you want to argue with me. Come on now.

And wow, you got a big improvement in your bench overnight. Congratulations!

"Not sure where you got these number from, but with warhorn im doing 38k, with dagger 35-36k. I very much doubt its just 1,2k."

Anyways.

It really does not seem like you're interested in having a productive discussion either, so cya and keep coping I guess. No point wasting words on... Whatever.

Please do post the logs of your benches before you go. You seem to be innovating quite a bit with your rotations and I'm genuinely curious how you're playing fresh air - I love that setup! 🫡

Quote

"The Defiance Break displays 232 instead of 332."

My bad. I was arguing based on misinformation but you can't blame me for that. It said 232 for like years now. I thought if it was a bug they would've fixed it by now but apparantly not.

Quote

Good point on the persisting flames. 10s is more than 4s then. Happy?

2s vs 4s is a huge difference in ecnounters like Matthias who move constantly.  Also thats not the point. You were arguing based on false information.

Quote

You're just pulling whatever out of your kitten about the CC now.

I made a good point and you are not engaging with it. Other classes have the same dps and much better cc.

Quote

And wow, you got a big improvement in your bench overnight. Congratulations!

It really does not seem like you're interested in having a productive discussion either, so cya and keep coping I guess. No point wasting words on... Whatever.

Please, Take a look at your own words.

Edited December 3, 2023 by DungeonMaster.3012

[soulknight.9620]

When comparing dagger and warhorn you should mention that warhorn is a support weapon with unjustified high dps output for a support weapon. Dagger is pure dps weapon with close to 0 support. And when you compare the two weapons with that in mind (taking into account the role and utility of the weapon) you should see that there is a problem where a pure dps offhand has lower dps than support heavy warhorn. And also raids are not the only content of gw2. If you think that everything should be balanced for kitty cat golem (raid bosses) bashing than we have nothing to discuss here.