What is the Purpose of Engi Shortbow? Failed to Understand it.

[Drag You Down.2615]

I just reviewed the data of this engi shortbow, and it is a mental torture. It is not only the extremely weird radius and low numbers of healing and barrier, but its entire function cannot fulfill the needs of any healing Engi build, not HQS, not HAM.

I know mace is not good, but at least mace has a steady access to regen and vigor, regen is very important to Engi, because it increases 250 healing power from Energy Amplifier. With this shortbow, which has no regen, it will be very difficult to have 100% coverage, especially for HAM, because you have no tool belt skills. It will also lose the protection from shield skills with traits. Basically, you are paying FULL UPTIME REGEN, VIGOR AND PROT to get a 15 SECS CD skill with only 10 stacks maximum, 5 or 0 (if your friends miss these tiny circles, or move when you detonate them) stacks minimum MIGHT! WHY WOULD I DO THAT?!

The combo field and finisher are not bad, only if scrapper can have slightly higher base duration for quick, at least 3.5 secs. For now, if I'm really going to use it, I have to get 100% boon duration and spam shortbow 2 and Blast Gyro crazily. Even if I do so, during the split mechanics, quickness will still be gone, because the duration of your maximum quick is the same with shortbow 2 CD, and there is also activation time for that skill. With mace/shield, you have a short CD leap finisher (I hate leap finisher, it will lock your animation) and a blast finisher from shield 4. You have more finishers to help you build up the total duration of quickness.

In general, this weapon is even worse than the old base game healing weapons, like guardian's staff and mace, and ele's staff. They enhance the performance of the professions, but this one just takes engi's advantage away. It also cannot compete with any other healing supportive weapon in this patch, not with Mesmer's rifle, Ranger's main hand mace, Revenant's scepter, Warrior's staff.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Drag You Down.2615

[Fueki.4753]

It's purpose is to provide joy to the people who like that kind of gameplay. Not everything has to be about numbers.

But the beta numbers might not be final or anywhere close to what they intend for when the weapon goes live. The beta was to let players test the gameplay and discover bugs that internal testing (if it exists) may not have encountered.

Edited December 26, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Drag You Down.2615]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It's purpose is to provide joy to the people who like that kind of gameplay. Not everything has to be about numbers.

But the beta numbers might not be final or anywhere close to what they intend for when the weapon goes live. The beta was to let players test the gameplay and discover bugs that internal testing (if it exists) may not have encountered.

That's why I didn't talk about numbers. I was saying that the way this shortbow functions may not interact with the existing traits and it will reinforce the problem of lacking boon variety since it only provide might.

[Jerus.4350]

8 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It's purpose is to provide joy to the people who like that kind of gameplay. Not everything has to be about numbers.

But the beta numbers might not be final or anywhere close to what they intend for when the weapon goes live. The beta was to let players test the gameplay and discover bugs that internal testing (if it exists) may not have encountered.

That’s the thing, gameplay wise it was pretty bland.  The detonation mechanic needs some work and 240 effect radius is very limiting especially with a delayed reaction mechanic.

[Drag You Down.2615]

10 minutes ago, Jerus.4350 said:

That’s the thing, gameplay wise it was pretty bland.  The detonation mechanic needs some work and 240 effect radius is very limiting especially with a delayed reaction mechanic.

I guess their inspiration may be Gangplank's Powder Keg in LOL, or similar things. I have seen this mech in other games before. But this feels odd in GW2 since it is very much an action game, and this is very difficult to use in pvp/wvw, as well as some fast-paced fight in pve. It is not about how ppl may like it or not, it is not usable or fail to function as expected.

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Jerus.4350 said:

That’s the thing, gameplay wise it was pretty bland.

Whether gameplay is bland or enjoyable, always depends on each individual player.

For example, I had a bit of fun blasting Ice Drakes in Bitterfrost Frontier with it. Yet I had none using Revenant's Sceptre, which quite a few people seemed to like.

And if someone like me, who generally dislikes Engineer and manual placement abilities, can find a bit of fun with it, there will be people out there really enjoying that gameplay. They may not be too many, but they exist.

3 hours ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

I was saying that the way this shortbow functions may not interact with the existing traits and it will reinforce the problem of lacking boon variety since it only provide might.

It interacted well enough with the Explosives trait line for me. Short Fuse grants Fury. Explosive Temper grants Ferocity. Big Boomer heals.

If paired with Firearms, you can use Sanguine Array or High Caliber, Pinpoint Distribution or No Scope and Modified Ammunition for more strike damage.

You can also use Inventions or Alchemy for general improvements. Bunker Down even feeds into the Explosions gameplay.

Or you could choose Tools for Vigor gameplay via your Tool Belt and increase your strike damage further with Excessive Energy. But I don't think that's fun or effective.

Scrapper's Impact Savant and Applied Force may also work decently well with Shortbow.

While not using the Shortbow, Holosmith's Crystal Configuration: Storm and Photonic Blasting Module feed into the Explosions gameplay, too.

Maybe there's also things within Mechanist that work with Shortbow, but I don't touch that.

And while it's not offering many different boons, not everything needs to have excessive amounts of boons.

If someone really wants to, there will be ways to play it decently well. They just need to be careful to not undertune it.

1 hour ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

this is very difficult to use in pvp/wvw, as well as some fast-paced fight in pve. It is not about how ppl may like it or not, it is not usable or fail to function as expected.

Not everything needs to work in every situation. Engineer can always use Kits and Holoforge to switch out the weapon abilities depending on the situation.

Not every type of gameplay needs to be neutered out of the game, like they did with Ranger's sword, just because it's less than ideal for some situations.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Twilightmage.8309]

its a cool theme but it really seems to need some tweaking. it needs longer duration, better chaining, and hopefully some damage to make it more hybridy.

[Fueki.4753]

51 minutes ago, Twilightmage.8309 said:

it needs longer duration, better chaining, and hopefully some damage to make it more hybridy.

I agree with these. They improve Shortbow without changing the playstyle.

But as I wrote above, the numbers from the beta might not even have been what they intend for the weapon when it goes live.

[Zzik.5873]

What playstyle?! Spaming aoe?! It play excatly like mortar kit, grenade kit, bomb kit... but with extra step? It does not interact with explosion, nor alchemy?! All it want to be is like another layer of combo zone witch engi already use a lot... As an engi main I agree with op, the shortbow provide nothing new nor usefull. And gameplay wise... lol... theirs also nothing new... The chain mechanic is nothing but a clunkier combo zone mechanic you know right? Also its a support weapon, youll probably just spam them at your feet... like mortar kit... The theme of using other class skill is kinda whatever (not playimg emgi to have other class skill lol). But the gameplay ouuuuf its boring. I mean how can you find it new? Never use necro staff? Never used mortar kit? Never use grenade kit? The chain mechanic does not save it from being 4 skills copy past... Bonus point since its gonna be a balance nightmare... either the base skill suck and you MUST chain reaction them, or the base skill are alright and the chain reaction is useless... Stop ruinning engi class for does that dont play engi...

[Drag You Down.2615]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

It interacted well enough with the Explosives trait line for me. Short Fuse grants Fury. Explosive Temper grants Ferocity. Big Boomer heals.

I'm sorry, this part is not true. None of the skills labeled explosion in shortbow which means no matter how, it cannot interact with explosives trait line. If it could, that was a bug.

Also, this weapon is very funny being used as a offensive weapon, because you have very limited sources of damage. From the moment I saw you didn't talk about its supportive aspects, I know the answer. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Drag You Down.2615

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 minute ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

I'm sorry, this part is not true. None of the skills labeled explosion in shortbow which means no matter how, it cannot interact with explosives trait line. If it could, that was a bug.

Also, this weapon is very funny being used as a offensive weapon, because you have very limited sources of damage. From the moment I saw you didn't talk about its supportive aspects, I know the answer. 

 

[Drag You Down.2615]

40 minutes ago, Zzik.5873 said:

What playstyle?! Spaming aoe?! It play excatly like mortar kit, grenade kit, bomb kit... but with extra step? It does not interact with explosion, nor alchemy?! All it want to be is like another layer of combo zone witch engi already use a lot... As an engi main I agree with op, the shortbow provide nothing new nor usefull. And gameplay wise... lol... theirs also nothing new... The chain mechanic is nothing but a clunkier combo zone mechanic you know right? Also its a support weapon, youll probably just spam them at your feet... like mortar kit... The theme of using other class skill is kinda whatever (not playimg emgi to have other class skill lol). But the gameplay ouuuuf its boring. I mean how can you find it new? Never use necro staff? Never used mortar kit? Never use grenade kit? The chain mechanic does not save it from being 4 skills copy past... Bonus point since its gonna be a balance nightmare... either the base skill suck and you MUST chain reaction them, or the base skill are alright and the chain reaction is useless... Stop ruinning engi class for does that dont play engi...

You could at or quote.

[Drag You Down.2615]

5 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Not everything needs to work in every situation. Engineer can always use Kits and Holoforge to switch out the weapon abilities depending on the situation.

Not every type of gameplay needs to be neutered out of the game, like they did with Ranger's sword, just because it's less than ideal for some situations

But when something doesn't work in MOST common situations, that is clearly unacceptable. It is a design failure. 

[Fueki.4753]

15 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

I'm sorry, this part is not true. None of the skills labeled explosion in shortbow which means no matter how, it cannot interact with explosives trait line. If it could, that was a bug.

I remember the flip over abilities being labelled as Explosions, but apparently, that was wrong.

Nevertheless, the game literally say detonate for all those flip over abilities, which strongly implies explosions.

If Arenanet doesn't make them Explosions, then they reword the tooltips "Detonate" has no business being in the tooltips, if there are no explosions.

16 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

But when something doesn't work in MOST common situations, that is clearly unacceptable. It is a design failure. 

What are these most common situations you think of?

For me that describes open world enemies, for which Shortbow objectively works.

[Drag You Down.2615]

13 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I remember the flip over abilities being labelled as Explosions, but apparently, that was wrong.

Nevertheless, the game literally say detonate for all those flip over abilities, which strongly implies explosions.

If Arenanet doesn't make them Explosions, then they reword the tooltips "Detonate" has no business being in the tooltips, if there are no explosions.

Then I am sorry to question you again, nothing offensive, just purely want to make sure that we are on the same page. 

You said you remember, but did you try it during beta test? All conclusions I made above are not only comes from the data review, from the website. I tried it a lot in game before so I know it functions less well (actually very difficult) and even less fun than mace/shield to Healer Builds. 

So when you are saying that it functions, what situations have you tested?

[Fueki.4753]

34 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

So when you are saying that it functions, what situations have you tested?

As I already said, I fought open world enemies, mostly Ice Drakes in Bitterfrost Frontier, to test if the weapon abilities work.

After all, the beta was to test , if the abilities work and/or if there are bugs.

And I'm not sorry to ask you again:

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

What are these most common situations you think of?

 

 

 

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 minute ago, Fueki.4753 said:

What are these most common situations you think of?

I mainly play pve instance contents, raids and strikes, sometimes wvw. I also play open world but I have to say, there are so many factors affect it. To me, Heart of Thorn map HPs are better than normal open world mobs to test a build due to the current power creep situation. 

You know the game has three large modes, pve, pvp, wvw. Pve has two sub-modes, Instance and open world. So 4 modes in total. When a weapon cannot function well in 3 out of 4, this means something.

[Drag You Down.2615]

13 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

As I already said, I fought open world enemies, mostly Ice Drakes in Bitterfrost Frontier, to test if the weapon abilities work.

Did you test it with explosives traits? Did it work?

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Did you test it with explosives traits? Did it work?

I got Fury out of something that is not just Explosive Entrance. I assume it was the detonations of the shortbow contraptions.

But, if the detonations really end up not being Explosions, they make a big mistake in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

I mainly play pve instance contents, raids and strikes, sometimes wvw. I also play open world but I have to say, there are so many factors affect it. To me, Heart of Thorn map HPs are better than normal open world mobs to test a build due to the current power creep situation.

I don't think activities intended for groups are a good place to see, if something works.

But then again, I'm the type to test things in a safe and controllable environment.

[Drag You Down.2615]

46 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I don't think activities intended for groups are a good place to see, if something works

You must be kidding 😆 

If I don't test a weapon with aoe group healing and group barrier with other players, how do I know how they work? Heal my mini? These contents are the place people really care about build and being hardcore, not open world. 

And even further, if something can't even work with allies' support, how can it work by itself?

[Drag You Down.2615]

55 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I got Fury out of something that is not just Explosive Entrance. I assume it was the detonations of the shortbow contraptions.

But, if the detonations really end up not being Explosions, they make a big mistake in my opinion.

If you are not even sure, then why did you post that misleading information? Can this prove something?

[Fueki.4753]

37 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

If you are not even sure, then why did you post that misleading information? Can this prove something?

I still feel like the Explosion traits triggered with the detonations and I got results from these traits.

So it simply makes sense that they were triggered by the detonations.

44 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

If I don't test a weapon with aoe group healing and group barrier with other players, how do I know how they work?

You can always try it with just yourself or with people staying around in Lion's Arch. Barrier always applies. Or you ask a group of people to assemble for your testing. Getting people together doesn't require you to do content designed for groups.

And to test the healing, you can get regular enemies to bite your face and eat your HP.

44 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

And even further, if something can't even work with allies' support, how can it work by itself?

It works if the abilities consistently do what they are supposed to do, instead of failing a lot like Warrior Greatsword's Rush and Warrior Staff's new variant of Rush.

What were you testing during the beta? If the weapon is viable for group play?

Why don't you edit your posts instead of posting multiple times?

Edited December 27, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Drag You Down.2615]

5 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You can always try it with just yourself or with people staying around in Lion's Arch. Barrier always applies. Or you ask a group of people to assemble for your testing. Getting people together doesn't require you to do content designed for groups.

And to test the healing, you can get regular enemies to bite your face and eat your HP.

Why don't you edit your posts instead of posting multiple times?

I mean, why can't I test it in the group contents? Because it doesn't work in wvw and instance doesn't mean it really doesn't work? Group contents are not a part, the largest part, of the game? If this is what you mean I would stop discussion since it is very misleading. 

For last question, because I am using my phone now, I don't want to slide around when I type. Just that simple. 

[Fueki.4753]

1 minute ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

I mean, why can't I test it in the group contents?

I didn't write you can't. I just don't think it's a sufficiently controllable and safe enough environment for me to test, whether abilities work or not.

 

[Zzik.5873]

In open world everything work, sure the shortbow maybe able to kill easy enemy... but that the lowest bar possible... If it dont work in wvw, pvp and end game pve, you cant say in good faith that the weapon is well design and usefull. I mean, you can kill open world enemy with elixir gun auto... Heck you can kill open world enemy with the environnemental branch that drop from oakheart...