Shouts rework ideas.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Shouts are pretty neat on support warrior as my spvp history with mine can tell.
Still there are quite a few weird/useless/abandoned areas that need adjusting.
The below suggestions are to be taken as a whole.
A buff in specific area may be balanced by a nerf in another.

Ammo counts.

I've just about had it with these inconsistencies in shout ammo mechanics.
All shouts should have two ammo charges and be adjusted to that where necessary.

Suggested adjustments:

All shouts - two charges ammo count.
"Shake it Off!" - pvp version same as pve one.
"Fear Me!" - 1.5s fear duration, regardless of distance. 30s recharge.
"To the Limit!" - recharge time increased to 30s.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shrug it Off

The passive cast of Shake it Off is plain harmful.
Completely pointless activation condition (receiving a single condi) on a power budget heavy feature (AoE stunbreaker).

Suggested changes:

Remove the passive cast of "Shake it Off" altogether.
Shouts that affect allies remove damaging conditions (two in pve, one in pvp).
Shouts that affect enemies inflict vulnerability (5 stacks, 6s).
Heal ally when removing a damaging condi stays the same.

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Vigorous Shouts

Heal shouts are a solid idea and a build defining grandmaster trait.
Issue I have here is how a supportive trait is relying on power attribute to give out bonus healing power.

Suggested changes:

Let's drop any kind of scaling from another attribute.
Just make it a flat healing power bonus (200 - 300 value).

Edited February 11 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Edited my above post with some changes (like on vigorous shouts).
Ty so much for your reactions which added a big solid nothing to the conversation.
How about putting in some effort and actually typing a response with some reasoning?

[Mevelios.4809]

Are these suggestions for sPvP only? Because if it's the case, on most amulets Vigorous shouts' conversion provides 260 heal pow already (only the rabid one's an exception), while too many ammo skills on shouts would really allow abusing the healing on it. To the limit being also a way to recover endurance (65 points at that, more than a dodge roll's worth) it could prove unhealthy.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

These are suggestion for all game modes, though spvp is where i spend a fair share of my time.
Now to answer your questions/input:

1. Vigorous Shouts  - I dislike the notion of support grandmaster trait being damage type dependent.
Leave that to things like Great Fortitude which is in Strength line - a proper place for such scalings.

2. "To the Limit" - it may sound op on paper, but in actual practice it's not.
A dead support can't support jack and without Defiant Stance that's what you'll be.

As a support I go to mid node and tank through heaviest enemy fire while buffing allies expecting them to clean up while I soak the damage.
I can assure you in my games my other teammates are in no rush to stand on middle node when enemy is raining hell on it, expecting free cap or free kill.
If my warrior can't endure it, we're losing it, and it may take a while before we get it back playing a losing game vs the clock.
And if  I'm a shout heal warrior (which I am) i don't get much room in my utilities or elite slots for anti-burst skills.

Edited February 12 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Mevelios.4809]

16 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

These are suggestion for all game modes, though spvp is where i spend a fair share of my time.

Do you have much experience running the healer warrior in PvE then? No offense meant here, just a question; I've been running mine in raids/strikes (including the easier CMs) and I can't reach the same conclusions, although I can easily imagine how you'd like to have more manual control other some aspects rather than the current passive implementation of several key traits.

17 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Vigorous Shouts

Heal shouts are a solid idea and a build defining grandmaster trait.
Issue I have here is how a supportive trait is relying on power attribute to give out bonus healing power.

Suggested changes:

Let's drop any kind of scaling from another attribute.
Just make it a flat healing power bonus (200 - 300 value).

[...]

1. Vigorous Shouts  - I dislike the notion of support grandmaster trait being damage type dependent.
Leave that to things like Great Fortitude which is in Strength line - a proper place for such scalings.

What I don't get about that suggestion is, regardless of what you use, you already have a guaranteed 130 heal pow from it. The flat bonus you suggest (200-300) is basically what we already have in sPvP content from the amulets (minus the rabid one), whereas in PvE/WvW the power scaling prevents making a decent hybrid running on celestial or even seraph/plaguedoctor gear for qheal zerk.

From my topic I linked above, I consider that power to healing conversion excessive anyway, considering base healing values are already high. I'd rather give it the concentration bonus most healers get, while moving it to a default trait of tactics (minor grandmaster) instead of Mending might, which is utterly useless IMO: self-heal on applying might to allies, for a terribly low amount with a mere 1% scaling on heal pow. If it's kept as a major trait (one to pick among three), it would still remain as a must-have because of the stats increase.

17 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

2. "To the Limit" - it may sound op on paper, but in actual practice it's not.
A dead support can't support jack and without Defiant Stance that's what you'll be.

Beyond the healing from Vigorous shouts, it's also a provider of endurance - 65 in sPvP, 100 in WvW. That's huge. It's hard to land but if it succeeds AND is an ammo skill, yeah, in sPvP I'd find it excessive for teamplay. Using the concept of soaking up focused fire alone without breaking a sweat doesn't sound to me like the right way to balance things, as it denies group play already (and is one of the reasons why I'm definitely not a fan of GW2's PvP/WvW modes).

I'm not averse to making To the limit an ammo skill, simply averse to making it baseline. I suggest making that option a major trait rather, so it doesn't become a freebie.

On 2/10/2024 at 3:54 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Shrug it Off

The passive cast of Shake it Off is plain harmful.
Completely pointless activation condition (receiving a single condi) on a power budget heavy feature (AoE stunbreaker).

Suggested changes:

Remove the passive cast of "Shake it Off" altogether.
Shouts that affect allies remove damaging conditions (two in pve, one in pvp).
Shouts that affect enemies inflict vulnerability (5 stacks, 6s).
Heal ally when removing a damaging condi stays the same.

Here I get where you're coming from - you definitely want more manual control over such tools in PvP. It did save my hide more than once when I failed anticipating a bump or whatever as a tank in PvE (not mentioning the free heal it brings), but the major master traits under tactics spec don't look really interesting IMO.

I don't really have a solution in this regard, my own suggestion takes it away from the spec to fit it into discipline. However, there's still making PvP Shake it off an ammo skill a risky move - it's still a powerful tool with its AoE stunbreak +condi cleanse, which heals on cleanses when shouts themselves can heal too. It's massive.

There's the staff then to consider soon, I'd be afraid of a global reblance nerfing a lot to the ground!

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

5 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Do you have much experience running the healer warrior in PvE then?

My area of expertise is pvp healing on warrior. I have done some base testing of healing warr in pve but simply put you're the expert there.

 

5 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

What I don't get about that suggestion is, regardless of what you use, you already have a guaranteed 130 heal pow from it. The flat bonus you suggest (200-300) is basically what we already have in sPvP content from the amulets (minus the rabid one), whereas in PvE/WvW the power scaling prevents making a decent hybrid running on celestial or even seraph/plaguedoctor gear for qheal zerk.

From my topic I linked above, I consider that power to healing conversion excessive anyway, considering base healing values are already high. I'd rather give it the concentration bonus most healers get, while moving it to a default trait of tactics (minor grandmaster) instead of Mending might, which is utterly useless IMO: self-heal on applying might to allies, for a terribly low amount with a mere 1% scaling on heal pow. If it's kept as a major trait (one to pick among three), it would still remain as a must-have because of the stats increase.

 

Your math is off in this statement.
Full ascended Celestial warr will still get ~212 healing power from conversion, because Cele has power too.
That's only 70 points below one that would run a four attribute set like for example Crusader.
Not much of a prevention if you ask me.

Seraph and Plaguedoctor lose to cele by default.
Cele trumps them in both damage and sustain, equalling them in support.
And the staff (weapon) that's about to land soon does not support condi at all.
These two are not dangerous to warrior balance in any way shape or form.

I can't give you a quick fix to stopping celestial builds here and now, not in top mental shape.
But it is very clear to me spvp is indeed my area of expertise.
The Mending might you deem rather useless in PvE is insanely good in terms of self sustain there.
FGJ gives 12 might stacks in spvp (albeit they have short duration). Pair that up with almost always having allies around, and the heal gets pretty kitten solid.
Vigorous Shouts or Phalanx Strength will both ensure your self sustain from it is very high in this game mode.

As for "Shrug it Off!" - just to be sure here:
In spvp "Shake it Off" has no ammo count, there are no charges.
It has slightly better condi cleanses (4 condies) and slightly higher cd (24s).

The point here is I want the second charge back, while giving up the passive cast from the trait which cannot be properly controlled anyway.

Edited February 13 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Mevelios.4809]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:32 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Your math is off in this statement.

Full ascended Celestial warr will still get ~212 healing power from conversion, because Cele has power too.
That's only 70 points below one that would run a four attribute set like for example Crusader.
Not much of a prevention if you ask me.

Celestial indeed is the hole in my logic for PvE, but it's unsatisfying at solving the issue of boon duration (18% may not sound like much, yet for PvE if healsworn would be fine, healzerk's hard-pressed and performance drops terribly anytime a boss phases out/goes invulnerable for a while, during spread mechanics or whenever targets are missing to keep firing burst skills away). PvE is less of an issue though, since you'll be compared to other healers.

What I had in mind the most here was PvP context. A flat 2/300 stats bonus is huge but already existing from almost all of them, so there wouldn't be much change except for the rabid amulet, which is the only one with so much toughness, but maybe it has less incidence than what I imagine?

On 2/13/2024 at 10:32 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Seraph and Plaguedoctor lose to cele by default.

Cele trumps them in both damage and sustain, equalling them in support.
And the staff (weapon) that's about to land soon does not support condi at all.
These two are not dangerous to warrior balance in any way shape or form.

Seraph stats are more handy at landing crits, so it could prove interesting to run arms instead of discipline and give it a go on a hybrid zerk (extra crits for Furious surge stacks & bleeding). Bit doubtful though - again it's PvE anyway, there would be a comparison with other hybrid healers regardless.

On 2/13/2024 at 10:32 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

I can't give you a quick fix to stopping celestial builds here and now, not in top mental shape.

But it is very clear to me spvp is indeed my area of expertise.
The Mending might you deem rather useless in PvE is insanely good in terms of self sustain there.
FGJ gives 12 might stacks in spvp (albeit they have short duration). Pair that up with almost always having allies around, and the heal gets pretty kitten solid.
Vigorous Shouts or Phalanx Strength will both ensure your self sustain from it is very high in this game mode.

The issue I have with it is how selfish that thing is, for being on the prime support spec. I'm surprised though, thought a mere 50 hp recovery in PvP would have little use - well, with four allies around FGJ's worth 2400 hp (not factoring in the 1% scaling of the trait with heal pow), so I get that's worthwhile without mentioning other might sources!

What I'd rather bank on however are shouts healing the team rather than boons healing the self. Basically, removing Mending might to make Vigorous shouts a minor trait (that is, always active as long as tactics spec is used) would reduce the self-healing, however it could be triggered anytime, anywhere and with more ease (instead of FGJ only, applicable to all shouts) without its performance being dependant on how many allies are around. At the same time, Vigorous shouts & Phalanx strength wouldn't be competing with one another (although competing then with a new trait, which in my suggestion would enable a second ammo To the limit). Less survivability for the self when standing in the middle of a full group, but better self & group survivability in any context with less than four people around (at least that's my perception from such a change).

On 2/13/2024 at 10:32 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

As for "Shrug it Off!" - just to be sure here:

In spvp "Shake it Off" has no ammo count, there are no charges.
It has slightly better condi cleanses (4 condies) and slightly higher cd (24s).

The point here is I want the second charge back, while giving up the passive cast from the trait which cannot be properly controlled anyway.

I'm aware of the split between both modes; how about finding some middle ground here? While sticking to my suggestion, the moved Shrug it off would have a competitive split done, keeping it as-is in PvE - I don't care much for it, it's simply convenient for being a safety when you make a mistake to avoid resetting the encounter and provides extra healing (although that's obviously the sort of trait that denies "player skill", whatever anybody ties to that meaning). The PvP split however could enable the ammo back, by simply turning the PvP Shake it off into the PvE version (meaning the skill no longer removes four but three conditions with two ammos - supposedly without touching the 24s PvP CD).

My question here would rather be how valuable discipline is in PvP - that's really a game mode I dislike with the limited GW2 character building. If discipline isn't valuable, then for the sake of maintaining Shrug it off on tactics while sticking to the rest of my suggestions, finding room for the trait is difficult... maybe moving Empower allies to discipline instead of Shrug it off?

Edited February 16 by Mevelios.4809

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

9 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Celestial indeed is the hole in my logic for PvE, but it's unsatisfying at solving the issue of boon duration (18% may not sound like much, yet for PvE if healsworn would be fine, healzerk's hard-pressed and performance drops terribly anytime a boss phases out/goes invulnerable for a while, during spread mechanics or whenever targets are missing to keep firing burst skills away). PvE is less of an issue though, since you'll be compared to other healers

Don't ask and you shall receive:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKwAw+NlRwwYUsLmJWOTutVA-DyIY1o7/MSXqGiqSsvFoZHnbAA-e
Here's a servicable cele condi heal/quick zerk with nearly 100% quickness bonus duration.

And I better not hear another peep about bosses taking a break from fighthing.
With this build you can basically insta charge your core adrenaline bar and go to town with no less than 5 bursts in a row.
Signet of Fury -> Lvl 3 core burst-> Headbutt -> Berserk (breaks stun) -> Flaming Flurry -> Weapon Swap -> get 10 adrenaline on bow (easy, super easy if you got Opportunist trait) -> Scorched Earth -> Blood Reckoning -> Scorched Earth again -> get 10 adrenaline on bow (again easy) and fire off Scorched earth for third time wnen it's up.

Small reminder: Opportunist will trigger with both Smoldering Arrow and Pin Down, so weave it wisely and it'll be a long time before you bow starts having issues filling the adrenaline bar.

Two of your adrenaline boosters have 20s cd, and last one 16s. So by the time your quickness is down, you'll be ready to go at it again.
Just manage that berserk mode cooldown. If you're bent on being a great support you may toss damage under the bus and go for Eternal Champion instead of King of Fires to be able to leave zerk mode early, so you can double dip into core burst into fast primal one earlier.

 

10 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

What I had in mind the most here was PvP context. A flat 2/300 stats bonus is huge but already existing from almost all of them, so there wouldn't be much change except for the rabid amulet, which is the only one with so much toughness, but maybe it has less incidence than what I imagine?

Reason Rabid is alive and kicking in spvp (unlike many defensive amulets prior to it) is because of it's very clear cut weakness to condi.
It has no health nor healing power so enemy condies can bring you down much faster than for example someone running Sage or Carrion amulets.

The 200/300 stat boost is not that huge, provided in spvp best healing power you get from amulet is 500.
You can go for a full heal rune - another 300.
And then around 260 from current version of the trait if your amulet has power as major stat.
And spoiler alert - both the healing amulets (Avatar and Sage) do.
So my change would not affect spvp much.

Giving vigorous shouts  a flat healing power bonus is more of me giving a nod to PvE support warriors wanting to either go condi or just defensive support gear like minstrel once the staff for Warrior lands.

 

10 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Seraph stats are more handy at landing crits, so it could prove interesting to run arms instead of discipline and give it a go on a hybrid zerk (extra crits for Furious surge stacks & bleeding). Bit doubtful though - again it's PvE anyway, there would be a comparison with other hybrid healers regardless.

And therein lies the problem. Condi zerker is in reality a hybrid damage spec as are his weapons (Sword and Longbow).
The reason cele trumps seraph is because he actually makes pretty good use of the power oriented stats that Seraph lacks.
Also as nice as Furious is, 33% bleed chance on crit is not enough a game changer to favor Seraph over Celestial.
Now Mesmer - he has a trait that gives bleeds on crits with 100% chance - there Seraph makes some major sense.

 

10 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

The issue I have with it is how selfish that thing is, for being on the prime support spec. I'm surprised though, thought a mere 50 hp recovery in PvP would have little use - well, with four allies around FGJ's worth 2400 hp (not factoring in the 1% scaling of the trait with heal pow), so I get that's worthwhile without mentioning other might sources!

What I'd rather bank on however are shouts healing the team rather than boons healing the self. Basically, removing Mending might to make Vigorous shouts a minor trait (that is, always active as long as tactics spec is used) would reduce the self-healing, however it could be triggered anytime, anywhere and with more ease (instead of FGJ only, applicable to all shouts) without its performance being dependant on how many allies are around. At the same time, Vigorous shouts & Phalanx strength wouldn't be competing with one another (although competing then with a new trait, which in my suggestion would enable a second ammo To the limit). Less survivability for the self when standing in the middle of a full group, but better self & group survivability in any context with less than four people around (at least that's my perception from such a change).

It's 3k actually baseline because might applied to self is also a factor. So 5 people x 12 stacks of might x 50 hp healed per each.
Now combine that with Either Vigorous Shouts on a heal warrior build (like mine) or Phalanx Strength.
First will heal you for around 5.8k each FGJ cast, the latter 5.4k since it essentially doubles might stacks for all but yourself.
Keep in mind that as selfish as Phalanx Strength may seem, that's instant 24 might stacks on whole team.
Pair that up with Banner of Tactics and you got 5 madmen pomped with fury, might, stab and resistance, very eager to get down to business!

Also keep in mind - in spvp selfish = good for a support.
The best support isn't the one with biggest heals, it's the one who's hardest to kill,
Because enemies will try to focus you and dead supports can't support.
That's why heal Herald that is an absolutely legit pick in instanced PvE is utter garbage in spvp. Dude can't survive being focused.
Meanwhile my core warr (if not misplayed) can take a lot of pain while buffing/healing the team.

Vigorus shouts as a minor is a bad idea, unlesss you're talking purely about the +healing power bonus.
Minor traits are supposed to be build agnostic, just synergizing with their native traitline and it's theme.
Imagine a tactics warrior that does not use shouts at all. Welp there you go - one dead minor trat coming right up!

 

10 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I'm aware of the split between both modes; how about finding some middle ground here? While sticking to my suggestion, the moved Shrug it off would have a competitive split done, keeping it as-is in PvE - I don't care much for it, it's simply convenient for being a safety when you make a mistake to avoid resetting the encounter and provides extra healing (although that's obviously the sort of trait that denies "player skill", whatever anybody ties to that meaning). The PvP split however could enable the ammo back, by simply turning the PvP Shake it off into the PvE version (meaning the skill no longer removes four but three conditions with two ammos - supposedly without touching the 24s PvP CD).

My question here would rather be how valuable discipline is in PvP - that's really a game mode I dislike with the limited GW2 character building. If discipline isn't valuable, then for the sake of maintaining Shrug it off on tactics while sticking to the rest of my suggestions, finding room for the trait is difficult... maybe moving Empower allies to discipline instead of Shrug it off?

That's fine by me. I want my 2nd charge of controllable "Shake it Off" for my pvp games.
I don't mind PvE keeping the passive proc from "Shrug it Off" if PvE warrior supports need it to be happy.

As for Discipline - it's the third traitline to take, that nicely rounds up a healing build but is not mandatory.
Doubled Standards make Banners of Tactics provide smooth, continous resistance, instead having 1s gaps every pulse.
Focused Resolve is obviously nice for a healer.
Heightened Focus means more frequest bursts for Cleansing Ire and Soldier's Comfort proccing.

Still it's pretty obvious that Tactics are the mandatory line, with Defense being close second (You need that survivability).