Condi removal for engineers -- bad to worse

[Nilix.2170]

There is still Transmute that converts 3 conditions to boons but outside of that, Alchemy does not cleanse. Alchemy has traits that AFFECT cleansing (Comeback Cure/Purity of Purpose), but doesn't cleanse.

Invention minors provide a Cleanse and Protection(which provides another cleanse since we're talking about ACP) on Heal Use. Energy Amplifier seems out of place now that none of the traits provide Regeneration anymore (Heal Resonator was replaced for Reconstruction Enclosure, Bunker Down lost regen a long time ago) but we've got a decent number of Regen sources so it's whatever. So with Inventions as it is now, Healing Turret cleanses 4 conditions with ACP. You can trait for Experimental Turrets if you want the reflects and the Thumper Turret Protection. Mecha Legs is probably still the better bet here. And you also have Over Shield that provides Protection so if you ever had a reason to run Shield, you got cleanses.

All in all, I'd say the Inventions line, in itself got an improvement but at the same time, having to pick between ACP and Bunker Down is tragic. Really it would have been best if ACP replaced Heal Resonator as the minor rather than taken a GM slot but here we are

[Vagrant.7206]

@"Ardid.7203" said:Ok, good summary. For clarity, I was trying to isolate ONLY cleansing strats.Does Alchemy still have ANY value in cleansing?

Just this.

@"Ardid.7203" said:If not, then the question, IMO, will be not what we are losing with Alchemy, but what are we winning with Inventions. (Because Alchemy turns optional for cleanse builds).

Obviously all of this is very abstract. I'm just trying to isolate the understandable "defense" of Alchemy from the equation, for a while. (I can't clearly see the changes as nerfs or buffs if Alchemy's use is continuously interfering with the other lines contribution)

Alchemy still features Self-Regulating Defenses, Protection Injection (which synergizes with anticorrosion plating), and Hidden Flask, which have defensive value to them.

As for what inventions offers, realistically Automated Medical Response (heal skills auto-refresh at 25%), Mecha Legs (base movement + cripple reduction), and anticorrosion plating or bunker down.

In my opinion Alchemy was too strong, hence why people always took it. It was Alchemy or bust pretty much, and this change got rid of that.

It was "strong" because it was our only real defensive line. Now that it's been effectively split in half between inventions and alchemy, we usually have to run both for survivability. It's not that it was particularly strong before -- it was just our only decent defensive line. Now that defensive line's been moved over to inventions, but only slightly so we have two defense lines that are both relatively weak.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@coglin.1496 said:Corrupts are nowhere near the main source of damage from a condition necro when you are not making an effort to stack boons.

Corrupts are nowhere near the main source of damage for a condition necro in general just on the basis of which boons convert into what. The majority of them do not, in fact, convert into damaging conditions.

The problem is more so that we engineers often rely on the maintenance of boons to maximize our damage and sustain. For example, the entire Inventions traitline following the 2015 pre-HoT trait rework was built around maximizing your regeneration uptime. With Energy Amplifier, you receive a flat +250 bonus to your healing power whenever the boon was active; and with Heal Resonator, you received regeneration every time you activated your healing skill. This combination, alongside the fact that the Healing Turret natively produces regeneration on its own, is the reason why we didn't take the Medic Gyro for the most part in PvP. We could pretty much maintain regeneration near-permanently, which buffed the healing output of Bunker Down, Rapid Regeneration, and everything else you could think of. As a sum of its parts, the scrapper was substantially more effective with regeneration active compared to most other professions in the game. But that obviously comes with a cost.

I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that regeneration gets corrupted into poison. I'm also sure you're well aware of the fact that poison nerfs healing output by 33%. And while that -33% healing effectiveness certainly hurts for any class, it most especially hurts us on the basis that we're losing way more theoretical healing that our class is naturally balanced around. To make matters worse, scrappers also pretty much permanently sustain might on themselves thanks to the hammer auto-attack chain. And as you know, might gets corrupted into weakness, which lowers our endurance regeneration by 50%.

Getting constantly hammered by both weakness and poison, especially when you have almost zero control over it outside of just not using the hammer or the entire Inventions line, is not particularly fun. Regen and might became our two biggest threats the second any necromancer focused their attention on us. This is why the scrapper could effectively rope-a-dope nearly any 1v2 or outright sustain (but not kill) any 1v1 yet would flounder the second a necromancer came to the fight. It's funny that you insist that a low/no boon scrapper build would be less susceptible, but I'd actually argue that the lacking of additional cover boons would in fact make you more vulnerable to both weakness and poison nosediving your sustain.

So, to wrap this up, it's not that the corruption itself did all that much damage. It's just that the specific boons they'd corrupt -- and how easily they could corrupt them -- would easily expose us to death. You could argue that these conditions could just be cleansed -- and you're right. But all a necro has to do is equip their scepter to corrupt both regen and might almost as easily as we apply them. This new balance patch really hasn't changed that fact.

Now, Heal Resonator isn't in the game anymore and has been replaced by Reconstruction Enclosure, but that hasn't lessened our dependency on boons. If anything, we're now tasked to maintain access two boons -- regeneration and now protection -- to maximize our survival when before it was just one.

You could theoretically just not care about maintaining regeneration, but then you're literally forgoing the maximum utility of what Inventions brings to the table and the maximum value in efficiency that serves as the bar for what our class is balanced around.

Essentially speaking, if your build doesn't maximize its access to regen and protection at this point, you're just playing an inferior setup to one that does.

Also, just one other thing:

@coglin.1496 said:SD and 100Nades were both meta builds. You only claim otherwise because it works against your argument. The aspect I find interesting is how many posts you made declaring how you quit this game for YEARS and focused on FFXIV, yet presume to be some authority on what the meta was while you were not playing this game

Coglin, these character attacks aren't helpful.

I did not "quit this game for YEARS."

I took a break from playing Guild Wars 2 for most of last year to focus on other games: notably Elder Scrolls Online and Final Fantasy XIV. I happen to still be playing them, albeit very casually. To a lesser extent, I quit because of the never-ending in-game drama and the regular poor decision-making of the PvP community; but to a larger extent, I made that decision because it became increasingly obvious to me that ArenaNet has lost control over their game. They let people bot/AFK farm all afternoon in LS3 maps, they let people buy a monthly automated tournament title and not ban their accounts for it, and they had -- until the recent announcement regarding server changes -- really done nothing to resolve the population imbalances that were worsening in WvW. The game was in my view deteriorating at every front, and after the PoF beta weekend -- seeing that Holosmith was a purely selfish specialization and did nothing to grow our role in WvW, the only mode I remained interested in -- yes, I decided to take a break.

For that "crime" I am guilty as charged. I am also guilty for not playing Guild Wars 2 for some time back in 2014 to play ArcheAge when it first launched, and I did the same in 2016 when Black Desert came to the United States. That doesn't, however, infringe my abilities to keep up to date with what's going on in the game and how the engineer profession is being handled. The reason I'm actually here is because I made a point to remain informed of the game's future. I've put five years and thousands of hours into this game; needless to say, I'm quite financially, temporally, and emotionally invested in this game and am concerned for its future.

So can you please stop veering this thread off-topic with your completely needless personal attacks? It would be greatly appreciated by more than just myself. If you can't write your responses without fitting in these passive aggressive remarks calling people "dishonest," then maybe you just shouldn't reply at all.

[ukuni.8745]

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@coglin.1496 said:Corrupts are nowhere near the main source of damage from a condition necro when you are not making an effort to stack boons.

Corrupts are nowhere near the main source of damage for a condition necro in general just on the basis of which boons convert into what. The majority of them do not, in fact, convert into damaging conditions.

The problem is more so that we engineers often rely on the maintenance of boons to maximize our damage and sustain. For example, the entire Inventions traitline following the 2015 pre-HoT trait rework was built around maximizing your regeneration uptime. With Energy Amplifier, you receive a flat +250 bonus to your healing power whenever the boon was active; and with Heal Resonator, you received regeneration every time you activated your healing skill. This combination, alongside the fact that the Healing Turret natively produces regeneration on its own, is the reason why we didn't take the Medic Gyro for the most part in PvP. We could pretty much maintain regeneration near-permanently, which buffed the healing output of Bunker Down, Rapid Regeneration, and everything else you could think of. As a sum of its parts, the scrapper was substantially more effective with regeneration active compared to most other professions in the game. But that obviously comes with a cost.

I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that regeneration gets corrupted into poison. I'm also sure you're well aware of the fact that poison nerfs healing output by 33%. And while that -33% healing effectiveness certainly hurts for any class, it most especially hurts us on the basis that we're losing way more theoretical healing that our class is naturally balanced around. To make matters worse, scrappers also pretty much permanently sustain might on themselves thanks to the hammer auto-attack chain. And as you know, might gets corrupted into weakness, which lowers our endurance regeneration by 50%.

Getting constantly hammered by both weakness and poison, especially when you have almost zero control over it outside of just not using the hammer or the entire Inventions line, is not particularly fun. Regen and might became our two biggest threats the second any necromancer focused their attention on us. This is why the scrapper could effectively rope-a-dope nearly any 1v2 or outright sustain (but not kill) any 1v1 yet would flounder the second a necromancer came to the fight. It's funny that you insist that a low/no boon scrapper build would be less susceptible, but I'd actually argue that the lacking of additional cover boons would in fact make you more vulnerable to both weakness and poison nosediving your sustain.

So, to wrap this up, it's not that the corruption itself did all that much damage. It's just that the specific boons they'd corrupt -- and how easily they could corrupt them -- would easily expose us to death. You could argue that these conditions could just be cleansed -- and you're right. But all a necro has to do is equip their scepter to corrupt both regen and might almost as easily as we apply them. This new balance patch really hasn't changed that fact.

Now, Heal Resonator isn't in the game anymore and has been replaced by Reconstruction Enclosure, but that hasn't lessened our dependency on boons. If anything, we're now tasked to maintain access two boons -- regeneration and now protection -- to maximize our survival when before it was just one.

You could theoretically just not care about maintaining regeneration, but then you're literally forgoing the maximum utility of what Inventions brings to the table and the maximum value in efficiency that serves as the bar for what our class is balanced around.

Essentially speaking, if your build doesn't maximize its access to regen and protection at this point, you're just playing an inferior setup to one that does.

Also, just one other thing:

@coglin.1496 said:SD and 100Nades were both meta builds. You only claim otherwise because it works against your argument. The aspect I find interesting is how many posts you made declaring how you quit this game for YEARS and focused on FFXIV, yet presume to be some authority on what the meta was while you were not playing this game

Coglin, these character attacks aren't helpful.

I did not "quit this game for YEARS."

I took a break from playing Guild Wars 2 for most of last year to focus on other games: notably Elder Scrolls Online and Final Fantasy XIV. I happen to still be playing them, albeit very casually. To a lesser extent, I quit because of the never-ending in-game drama and the regular poor decision-making of the PvP community; but to a larger extent, I made that decision because it became increasingly obvious to me that ArenaNet has lost control over their game. They let people bot/AFK farm all afternoon in LS3 maps, they let people buy a monthly automated tournament title and not ban their accounts for it, and they had -- until the recent announcement regarding server changes -- really done nothing to resolve the population imbalances that were worsening in WvW. The game was in my view deteriorating at every front, and after the PoF beta weekend -- seeing that Holosmith was a purely selfish specialization and did nothing to grow our role in WvW, the only mode I remained interested in -- yes, I decided to take a break.

For that "crime" I am guilty as charged. I am also guilty for not playing Guild Wars 2 for some time back in 2014 to play ArcheAge when it first launched, and I did the same in 2016 when Black Desert came to the United States. That doesn't, however, infringe my abilities to keep up to date with what's going on in the game and how the engineer profession is being handled. The reason I'm actually here is because I made a point to remain informed of the game's future. I've put five years and thousands of hours into this game; needless to say, I'm quite financially, temporally, and emotionally invested in this game and am concerned for its future.

So can you please stop veering this thread off-topic with your completely needless personal attacks? It would be greatly appreciated by more than just myself. If you can't write your responses without fitting in these passive aggressive remarks calling people "dishonest," then maybe you just shouldn't reply at all.

When you say corruption isnt a big part of necro condis and then say regen getting regen corrupted into poison is such a big deal foe engis tank then follow it up with how much our damage gets reduced by might getting corrupted into weakness you break your own argument, which is it man.

Also really we took healing turret over medic gyro because we wernt optimal if we didnt have regen? Not because it healed more cleared more condis and was better team support......because i thought thats why a tank/support scrapper used it over med gyro.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@"ukuni.8745" said:When you say corruption isnt a big part of necro condis and then say regen getting regen corrupted into poison is such a big deal foe engis tank then follow it up with how much our damage gets reduced by might getting corrupted into weakness you break your own argument, which is it man.

I said that corrupts aren't the main source of necro damage, not that corrupts aren't "a big part" of necro conditions. Conditions don't have to necessarily deal damage to be useful, and corrupting regeneration converts into only one 6-second stack of poison. The damage itself is negligible; the gutting of our sustain is the real issue. Scourge does get access to more torment stacks through boon corruption, but the majority of necro condi damage just comes from the application of their own abilities and the manipulation of existing conditions (e.g., Epidemic).

What makes necromancers especially dangerous is their ability to procure conditions out of thin air. They can take 10 stacks of bleeding on one person and effectively turn that into 50 stacks of bleeding. No other class is equally effective in that measure, which is why necromancers almost always lagged behind condi engineer and other condi professions in raids/fractals.

Their role as a condition/boon manipulator as a "check" against their native condition damage output is actually not that much different from our historical role as a combo field/finisher generator being a native "check" against our core damage output. Before ArenaNet threw a wrench into everything with their 3-trait line/HoT rework in 2015, engineers were actually pretty low on the damage meter. What made us attractive, instead, was our ability to maintain 25 vulnerability stacks in dungeons/fractals while simultaneously offering smoke fields for stealth runs, water fields for healing, and fire fields for might stacking all under the same build. We were a genuine jack of all trades, which also made us essential for smooth FOTM 50 runs.

Obviously things have gone quite differently since for the game overall, but those were some of the intentions that were inherently baked into the engineer and the necromancer, and not much has really changed there. We're a class that historically has always relied on boons and vulnerability stacking to carry our weight, and they're a class that historically has always relied on manipulating conditions and boons to carry their weight. Even when necromancers ran power builds in WvW, they always ran some boon corruption skills on their bar. And like I said before: any time elementalist or engineer was a meta class in PvP, necromancer was always there behind them/us.

This is how the game has always been. And, if anything, this patch only reaffirms that dynamic.

Once you understand that dynamic, you then understand why many of us are arguing that using protection to cleanse conditions is a terrible idea.

@"ukuni.8745" said:Also really we took healing turret over medic gyro because we wernt optimal if we didnt have regen? Not because it healed more cleared more condis and was better team support......because i thought thats why a tank/support scrapper used it over med gyro.

Scrapper was and arguably still is primarily a side point fighter. Whatever "team support" the Healing Turret gave is pretty irrelevant since you were generally in 1v1s/1v2s/2v3s. It's true that the Healing Turret did cleanse more conditions, but it was honestly kind of a wash whether which one was superior as far as "effective healing" is concerned, especially since the Medic Gyro's toolbelt gives 5-6 seconds of protection.

The breaking point for many people was that the Medic Gyro just didn't synergize with Energy Amplifier. 250 healing power is a lot in PvP; Mender's amulet really "only" gives 1050 healing power. To get around 25% of that value practically for free is ridiculous.

[ukuni.8745]

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@"ukuni.8745" said:When you say corruption isnt a big part of necro condis and then say regen getting regen corrupted into poison is such a big deal foe engis tank then follow it up with how much our damage gets reduced by might getting corrupted into weakness you break your own argument, which is it man.

I said that corrupts aren't the main source of necro damage, not that corrupts aren't "a big part" of necro conditions. Conditions don't have to necessarily deal damage to be useful, and corrupting regeneration converts into only one 6-second stack of poison. The damage itself is negligible; the gutting of our sustain is the real issue. Scourge does get access to more torment stacks through boon corruption, but the majority of necro condi damage just comes from the application of their own abilities and the manipulation of existing conditions (e.g., Epidemic).

What makes necromancers especially dangerous is their ability to procure conditions out of thin air. They can take 10 stacks of bleeding on one person and effectively turn that into 50 stacks of bleeding. No other class is equally effective in that measure, which is why necromancers almost always lagged behind condi engineer and other condi professions in raids/fractals.

Their role as a condition/boon manipulator as a "check" against their native condition damage output is actually not that much different from our historical role as a combo field/finisher generator being a native "check" against our core damage output. Before ArenaNet threw a wrench into everything with their 3-trait line/HoT rework in 2015, engineers were actually pretty low on the damage meter. What made us attractive, instead, was our ability to maintain 25 vulnerability stacks in dungeons/fractals while simultaneously offering smoke fields for stealth runs, water fields for healing, and fire fields for might stacking all under the same build. We were a genuine jack of all trades, which also made us essential for smooth FOTM 50 runs.

Obviously things have gone quite differently since for the game overall, but those were some of the intentions that were inherently baked into the engineer and the necromancer, and not much has really changed there. If anything, this patch only reaffirms it.

@"ukuni.8745" said:Also really we took healing turret over medic gyro because we wernt optimal if we didnt have regen? Not because it healed more cleared more condis and was better team support......because i thought thats why a tank/support scrapper used it over med gyro.

Scrapper was and arguably still is primarily a side point fighter. Whatever "team support" the Healing Turret gave is pretty irrelevant since you were generally in 1v1s/1v2s/2v3s. It's true that the Healing Turret did cleanse more conditions, but it was honestly kind of a wash whether which one was superior as far as "effective healing" is concerned, especially since the Medic Gyro's toolbelt gives 5-6 seconds of protection.

The breaking point for many people was that the Medic Gyro just didn't synergize with Energy Amplifier. 250 healing power is a lot in PvP; Mender's amulet really "only" gives 1050 healing power. To get around 25% of that value practically for free is ridiculous.

But if corrupting our boons is such a big counter then it literally is a main source of damage against engineers isnt it, i agree that corrupting isnt a big source of necro damage but you literally said that scrappers tank came from healing and getting regen corrupted into poison reduced our sustain by alot which very well means that corrupting an engi is a major source of damage for a necro.

And ahhh no scrapper was better in team fights if you were running a meta setup, and seriously the breaking point wasnt ths condi clear or the aoe heal that you could also blast for more aoe healing and didnt have to keep it alive for 10 seconds to get just barely better healing from it, stop kidding yourself man.

[Vagrant.7206]

@ukuni.8745 said:

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@ukuni.8745 said:When you say corruption isnt a big part of necro condis and then say regen getting regen corrupted into poison is such a big deal foe engis tank then follow it up with how much our damage gets reduced by might getting corrupted into weakness you break your own argument, which is it man.

I said that corrupts aren't the main source of necro damage, not that corrupts aren't "a big part" of necro conditions. Conditions don't have to necessarily deal damage to be useful, and corrupting regeneration converts into only one 6-second stack of poison. The damage itself is negligible; the gutting of our sustain is the real issue. Scourge does get access to more torment stacks through boon corruption, but the majority of necro condi damage just comes from the application of their own abilities and the manipulation of existing conditions (e.g., Epidemic).

What makes necromancers especially dangerous is their ability to procure conditions out of thin air. They can take 10 stacks of bleeding on one person and effectively turn that into 50 stacks of bleeding. No other class is equally effective in that measure, which is why necromancers almost always lagged behind condi engineer and other condi professions in raids/fractals.

Their role as a condition/boon manipulator as a "check" against their native condition damage output is actually not that much different from our historical role as a combo field/finisher generator being a native "check" against our core damage output. Before ArenaNet threw a wrench into everything with their 3-trait line/HoT rework in 2015, engineers were actually pretty low on the damage meter. What made us attractive, instead, was our ability to maintain 25 vulnerability stacks in dungeons/fractals while simultaneously offering smoke fields for stealth runs, water fields for healing, and fire fields for might stacking all under the same build. We were a genuine jack of all trades, which also made us essential for smooth FOTM 50 runs.

Obviously things have gone quite differently since for the game overall, but those were some of the intentions that were inherently baked into the engineer and the necromancer, and not much has really changed there. If anything, this patch only reaffirms it.

@ukuni.8745 said:Also really we took healing turret over medic gyro because we wernt optimal if we didnt have regen? Not because it healed more cleared more condis and was better team support......because i thought thats why a tank/support scrapper used it over med gyro.

Scrapper was and arguably still is primarily a side point fighter. Whatever "team support" the Healing Turret gave is pretty irrelevant since you were generally in 1v1s/1v2s/2v3s. It's true that the Healing Turret did cleanse more conditions, but it was honestly kind of a wash whether which one was superior as far as "effective healing" is concerned, especially since the Medic Gyro's toolbelt gives 5-6 seconds of protection.

The breaking point for many people was that the Medic Gyro just didn't synergize with Energy Amplifier. 250 healing power is a lot in PvP; Mender's amulet really "only" gives 1050 healing power. To get around 25% of that value practically for free is ridiculous.

But if corrupting our boons is such a big counter then it literally is a main source of damage against engineers isnt it, i agree that corrupting isnt a big source of necro damage but you literally said that scrappers tank came from healing and getting regen corrupted into poison reduced our sustain by alot which very well means that corrupting an engi is a major source of damage for a necro.

And ahhh no scrapper was better in team fights if you were running a meta setup, and seriously the breaking point wasnt ths condi clear or the aoe heal that you could also blast for more aoe healing and didnt have to keep it alive for 10 seconds to get just barely better healing from it, stop kidding yourself man.

No, you are misinterpreting what he's saying.

Corrupting the aforementioned boons (might and regen) is like breaking an engineer's weapons and armor. By itself, it's not that powerful. It just makes us hit like a wet noodle and tank damage like a wet paper towel. This is why necro has always been engineer's bane -- we generate regen and might practically without intending to as part of our sustain and damage, and necro pulls that rug out from us. That's not "damage" in and of itself.

Medic gyro was always inferior to healing turret. No condi cleanse, lower overall healing output, no regen. The protection field it provided wasn't enough to justify its existence until recently.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@ukuni.8745 said:And ahhh no scrapper was better in team fights if you were running a meta setup

Druid and tempest were by and far better team supports than the scrapper was, even if you ran Mender+Water.

Vagrant already responded to the other point, so I'll leave it at that. I disagree that the prot field didn't justify its use, though -- but maybe that's a conversation for a different thread.

[ukuni.8745]

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@ukuni.8745 said:And ahhh no scrapper was better in team fights if you were running a meta setup

Druid and tempest were by and far better team supports than the scrapper was, even if you ran Mender+Water.

Vagrant already responded to the other point, so I'll leave it at that. I disagree that the prot field didn't justify its use, though -- but maybe that's a conversation for a different thread.

Yea i know which is why it became an unpopular choice after the nerf to daze on gyro death.

How am im misinterupting this? You say corruption isnt a big part of there damage and then say corruption is a big part to why they kill engis which means corruption is a big part of there damage, you both said it, the only thing your right about is its not much in terms of actual damage numbers coming from the necros screen which dosent mean shit.

I seen your post your post befor you edited it to, you contradicted your own arguement again.

[Nilix.2170]

You have to not be following along or something because

@"ukuni.8745" said:How am im misinterupting this?how can you ask this question considering the context of his statement...

You say corruption isnt a big part of there damage and then say corruption is a big part to why they kill engisadequately follow along with the statement...

the only thing your right about is its not much in terms of actual damage numbers coming from the necros screenanswer your OWN question...

which dosent mean kitten.and then completely disregard the answer?

You understand how sustainability works right? Engineers... "Bruisers" are built to deal damage and sustain themselves because they aren't fast enough to burst. By mitigating damage through heals, shields, % reductions, and the like, they can stay in the fight and maintain pressure. ENGINEERS manage their sustainability and pressure through boons. Protection, regeneration, vigor, might to name the most common. When these boons are LOST, their sustain/pressure effectiveness is lost. When these boons are CORRUPTED, their sustain/pressure effectiveness is inverted. The problem Engineers face from boon corruption isn't "Damage", it's "Control". It's the immediate loss of everything that they use to sustain themselves turned against them. Sustain that we often get for doing things as passively as auto attacking.

So I can't really see what you're getting at unless you are somehow trying to redefine, 33% reduced healing effectiveness, reduced damage, reduced chance to crit, and a 41% shift of damage intake as "Damage".

EDIT:

corruption is a big part to why they kill engis which means corruption is a big part of there damageUpon reread, you are INDEED trying to define poison, weakness, and vulnerability as damage itself and I'm gonna have to stop you right now and say

No, it's not.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@"MrForz.1953" said:My roaming WvW builds took a rather nasty hit, and there's no way I'm sitting in a hardlight arena or playing a scrapper/core build with kitten poor damage in these fields, it's already painful enough to punch through the natural defenses of many of these classes with that so called "massive damage".

I've tried various holosmith and scrapper (warily on scrapper; I primarily play holosmith) builds since the patch and found nothing that felt as cohesive as my old tools/alchemy holosmith build pre-patch that used elixirs and rocket boots. Using inventions paired with any damage oriented trait line has my holosmith far squishier than he was before as the minor/major traits in inventions are far weaker than alchemy's, even after the patch, and the need to have hard light arena on my bar leaves little room for stunbreaks.

As to trying scrapper in a bruiser/roamer role (a role it excelled in during HoT), it's laughable the moment there's an enemy scourge around. Up until that point, all the boons being pumped out by alchemy and inventions has scrapper feeling fairly durable and able to dish out damage of its own. The moment a scourge shows up (and scourge still seems pretty popular in WvW), the scrapper's boons are its lunch since the protection field cleansing, the cleansing from using a heal skill, the purge gyro cleansing, and the bit of cleansing possible in elixir gun are all not enough cleansing to survive being near a scourge.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@ukuni.8745 said:You say corruption isnt a big part of there damage and then say corruption is a big part to why they kill engis which means corruption is a big part of there damage, you both said it, the only thing your right about is its not much in terms of actual damage numbers coming from the necros screen which dosent mean kitten.

Bro, I already explained this to you:

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@ukuni.8745 said:When you say corruption isnt a big part of necro condis and then say regen getting regen corrupted into poison is such a big deal foe engis tank then follow it up with how much our damage gets reduced by might getting corrupted into weakness you break your own argument, which is it man.

I said that corrupts aren't the main source of necro damage, not that corrupts aren't "a big part" of necro conditions.

Again, to be perfectly clear here, I never said that corruption is not a "big part" of a condi necro's repertoire. I said that corrupting boons isn't their main source of damage. As in:

@ukuni.8745 said:its not much in terms of actual damage numbers coming from the necros screen

That's all this conversation was ever about. I have no idea why you insist on making it into something else. Instead of writing "you say..." in your posts, why don't you just quote the words I actually write and respond to them directly? Maybe that will help you avoid getting confused by what people are saying in the future.