More thoughts on revamping Deadeye

[Runo.2759]

Hello everyone!

Long-time player here, though I'm relatively new to trying out Deadeye and I have to admit, I haven't played a whole lot of Thief in general. I recently picked up Deadeye for my thief since I had been longing for a good sniper-type specialization with a rifle -- perhaps for either thief or ranger -- for a very long while, and ANet delivered!

I'm really excited about what Deadeye could become, but I think the mostly-unanimous response right now is that the spec needs some work to be on Daredevil's level and to provide a competent alternative to vanilla thief. Without further ado: I combed through some other threads suggesting ideas on reworking Deadeye and picked some of the ideas that I thought would really help bring the spec into the playing field with a little more 'oomph' and make them a little more competitive next to their brother-specializations.

The Good: Let's start with what I think people generally think genuinely feels good about Deadeye.-Deadeye Rifle Range: Let's talk about that 1500 range. It's beautiful, it's glorious, and it starts to feel like you're genuinely playing a sniper class in a cover-based shooter when you get into your Deadeye. This is an awesome start to making the Deadeye feel unique and fun, as not many classes can reach or extend past 1500 range. Obviously, longbow rangers and grenade engineers match and surpass this range, which is why I think the most beneficial change would be to modify the Sniper's Cover (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sniper%27s_Cover) trait so that it increases rifle range up from 1500 to 1800.** The reason I think this should be a Sniper's Cover-specific improvement is strictly for the sake of balance -- it's a choice we as players can make to improve our range rather than having perpetual Grenadier engineer/Longbow ranger range.-Deadeye Rifle Damage: It feels like it REALLY packs a punch, like you just landed some sick MLG-tier headshot or shot to the vitals on your enemy. You're essentially doing melee damage to a single target at pretty incredible range, which feels FUN. I think the issue isn't that Deadeye relies so heavily on Kneel for doing good damage, but that Kneel isn't as effective of a mechanic as it could be.

The Bad: The bad and the ugly -- mechanics that I think could absolutely stand to be altered or revamped in some fashion.-Initiative Returns: Deadeye's damage starts out strong but it begins to drain quickly, even if you trait into the Trickery tree. Taking a knee or entering Sniper's Cover takes half the initial (heh) initiative you could have used to start doling out damage. But at the same time, I think removing the initiative cost for Kneel is too much. It would most likely increase the reward and lower the risk of kneeling. Instead, I think that tying in initiative returns to Deadeye mechanics ought to help balance things a little. Perhaps Malice could grant you a large sum of Initiative upon killing a marked target and/or grant you a single point of Initiative as a 'refund' for scoring a successful hit on your mark; perhaps one point for a normal hit and two points for a critical hit, with an internal cooldown of 2.5 - 3 seconds attached to either/both sources of initiative refunds.

-Kneel's Limitations: I think that leaving Kneel should have more benefits. It seems like ANet was emphasizing on leaving this stance being a big to-do, so to speak, so I think that increasing the reward for taking the risk ought to help balance things out. Personally, I think that since you're typically a sitting duck for AoE and condition bombs, the best way to protect Deadeyes from getting 'bombed' is to remove additional conditions such as a stack or a few Torment, Slow and Burn -- and to offer a small window of a few (2 - 3.5) seconds of a single stack of Stability when you initially enter Kneel -- so you don't just take a knee and immediately get blown out of cover and disabled by some stray crowd control if you're anywhere near the fray.In the following thread: (https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/professions/thief/Is-the-Kneel-killing-the-Deadeye-s-Rifle), user Ohoni.6057 suggested the following change:" Here’s my compromise suggestion: If you use 5 to stand up, then it behaves like it currently does, no change there.But if you hit a direction to move, you will instantly stand up and start moving, but you will impose a stack of Crippled on you, maybe only half a second, maybe a second, not a huge amount, but enough to slap you on the wrist a bit for getting up too quickly. This would help keep kneeling riflemen “less mobile,” but not make you completely immobile." This seems like a solid idea. A few seconds of cripple to punish you for trying to get out of kneel not only helps a Deadeye move out of the way, but it helps give us options for getting out of the way of AoEs that don't involve wasting a utiltiy like Withdraw, Roll for Initiative, Shadowstep or a dodge roll. And user Doggie.3184 suggested the following change:"Jump [space] to get out of Kneel isn’t a lot to ask for." I think this is a great idea since it adds some more functionality to Kneel.

-Multiple Low-Performance Cantrips: I have to admit, I think the only cantrip I regularly make use of is Shadow Meld. It has some decent uses and synergies as a panic button and with some abilities and traits we already have.Malicious Restoration seems to be in a decent place. I still use Withdraw over MR, simply because I think the added mobility is incredibly handy for a panic heal as a Deadeye.Binding Shadow seems to be in a decent place as well. I think it's odd that it emphasizes on conditions over power given the nature of the Deadye spec, but that isn't a bad thing, in case people want to play a Condi deadeye -- Presumably one that ditches Rifle.Mercy feels halfway decent. I think with some changes to the Malice mechanic -- perhaps the initiative refunds I mentioned above -- it could be a very solid skill indeed.Shadow Flare & Shadow Swap feel... odd. I don't know why I'm throwing an orb that will teleport me CLOSER to the fray when I may need to use this emergency shadowstep to get oUT of the fray. And if I use it for the latter, why wouldn't I just use vanilla thief's Shadow Step?Shadow Gust

Further Recommendations:Path of Fire seems to emphasize on the F-keys to add new mechanics to the new elite specs, but here Deadeye's F-skills simply modify the already-present Steal (F1, which becomes Malice) and Stolen Skill (F2). I think adding another one or two F-skills could help the spec find its footing in PvE and PvP alike, and so I recommend the following:F3: Take Cover ought to be on a 45-50s cooldown. Take Cover reduces incoming damage while Kneeling by 33% (perhaps as high as 50% from their Marked target) to help them survive an AoE bombardment they know they can't get out of. Perhaps it could synergize with the Major Adept trait, One in the Chamber, so that cantrips reduce its cooldown by 2 - 3 seconds every time the Deadeye utilizes a cantrip.F4: Fall Back allows the player to 'amplify' their movement whether or not they're kneeling. Fall Back could be on a 35-40s cooldown, and it grants the Deadeye 2 - 3.5 seconds of Resistance and 2 - 4 seconds of reduced incoming condition damage/duration -- so they can safely leave their knelt position and take another position somewhere else even if they're likely to leave Kneel and run into a crippling/immobilizing/chilling/slowing effect.

That's all from me, folks! Thanks for reading,~Runo

[Riddle.2714]

@Runo.2759 said:The Good: Let's start with what I think people generally think genuinely feels good about Deadeye.-Deadeye Rifle Range: Let's talk about that 1500 range. It's beautiful, it's glorious, and it starts to feel like you're genuinely playing a sniper class in a cover-based shooter when you get into your Deadeye. This is an awesome start to making the Deadeye feel unique and fun, as not many classes can reach or extend past 1500 range. Obviously, longbow rangers and grenade engineers match and surpass this range, which is why I think the most beneficial change would be to modify the Sniper's Cover (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sniper%27s_Cover) trait so that it increases rifle range up from 1500 to 1800.** The reason I think this should be a Sniper's Cover-specific improvement is strictly for the sake of balance -- it's a choice we as players can make to improve our range rather than having perpetual Grenadier engineer/Longbow ranger range.

Engin grenades are 900 range though, and ranger longbow could reach 1740 range or so(disregarding ranger's longbow damage)..But yes, 1800 range tied to sniper's cover would somehow solve one of DE's clunkiness : 'sniper cover should be made baseline'.

-Deadeye Rifle Damage: It feels like it REALLY packs a punch, like you just landed some sick MLG-tier headshot or shot to the vitals on your enemy. You're essentially doing melee damage to a single target at pretty incredible range, which feels FUN. I think the issue isn't that Deadeye relies so heavily on Kneel for doing good damage, but that Kneel isn't as effective of a mechanic as it could be.

Yes and no..Damage isn't bad, yes. The problem is how long it takes to reach that xXx360n0ScopexXx. DE does wonder in 'damage' part but falls short in 'per second' part of 'damage per second '. Closely related to kneel's risk-and-reward ratio.

Absurd dmg & 1800 range don't go well together. Can't expect to get both :(. But again, DE is single target oriented.Maybe buffing just DJ's damage modifier and leave everything else as it is. The reward definitely should be more than we have now :(

The Bad: The bad and the ugly -- mechanics that I think could absolutely stand to be altered or revamped in some fashion.-Initiative Returns: Deadeye's damage starts out strong but it begins to drain quickly, even if you trait into the Trickery tree. Taking a knee or entering Sniper's Cover takes half the initial (heh) initiative you could have used to start doling out damage. But at the same time, I think removing the initiative cost for Kneel is too much. It would most likely increase the reward and lower the risk of kneeling. Instead, I think that tying in initiative returns to Deadeye mechanics ought to help balance things a little. Perhaps Malice could grant you a large sum of Initiative upon killing a marked target and/or grant you a single point of Initiative as a 'refund' for scoring a successful hit on your mark; perhaps one point for a normal hit and two points for a critical hit, with an internal cooldown of 2.5 - 3 seconds attached to either/both sources of initiative refunds.

Even when using trickery, the result is still the same it seems. 3 DJs at max. Mark's buildup time and duration limits it.Init cost for kneel is there to make kneeling a decisive matter. So yes, you're right. It's too much to have it removed.

Init on kill is ineffective when fighting bosses. On hit would encourages 3-round burst spam aka unload v2.0.Someone suggested we got extra init regen during kneeling, and some kind of protection while standing (if i'm not mistaken). That would make both mode more rewarding without becoming too gameplay-changing. It would let rifle more appealing and unique than p/p, too! maybe

Malicious Restoration seems to be in a decent place. I still use Withdraw over MR, simply because I think the added mobility is incredibly handy for a panic heal as a Deadeye.

How do you manage with withdraw ? o_oWithdrawing at 1200 range(or more) always messes my rotation since i need to stand up and walk closer, then kneel again--missing my chance for 3rd DJ. If the enemy moves? I have to pop shadowstep to land that DJ during that <8 secs window..

I've been using malicious ever since. The same for Roll for init--replaced with mercy

Binding Shadow seems to be in a decent place as well. I think it's odd that it emphasizes on conditions over power given the nature of the Deadye spec, but that isn't a bad thing, in case people want to play a Condi deadeye -- Presumably one that ditches Rifle.

It's used for heavy breakbar damage beside basilisk venom, the two main cc for DEs. cd needs to be tweaked though.

Mercy feels halfway decent. I think with some changes to the Malice mechanic -- perhaps the initiative refunds I mentioned above -- it could be a very solid skill indeed.

Dunno. It's so much better than roll for init, at least for DE.This is just my wild thought, but it feels like this skill is the reason anet don't put cantrip cd reduction trait for DE.Imagine if mercy has exactly same cd with mark. Use it each time when mark is just about to fall off (1 sec) and there you go, a sustained dps--which consists of nukes action-packed in three episodes.

Shadow Flare & Shadow Swap feel... odd. I don't know why I'm throwing an orb that will teleport me CLOSER to the fray when I may need to use this emergency shadowstep to get oUT of the fray. And if I use it for the latter, why wouldn't I just use vanilla thief's Shadow Step?

It does feels weak for area damage, especially at 3> malice.. and its cd seals its overall usefulnessVanilla shadowstep's much more useful for positioning, and it's instacast. stunbreak. twice.

Further Recommendations:Path of Fire seems to emphasize on the F-keys to add new mechanics to the new elite specs, but here Deadeye's F-skills simply modify the already-present Steal (F1, which becomes Malice) and Stolen Skill (F2). I think adding another one or two F-skills could help the spec find its footing in PvE and PvP alike, and so I recommend the following:F3: Take Cover ought to be on a 45-50s cooldown. Take Cover reduces incoming damage while Kneeling by 33% (perhaps as high as 50% from their Marked target) to help them survive an AoE bombardment they know they can't get out of. Perhaps it could synergize with the Major Adept trait, One in the Chamber, so that cantrips reduce its cooldown by 2 - 3 seconds every time the Deadeye utilizes a cantrip.F4: Fall Back allows the player to 'amplify' their movement whether or not they're kneeling. Fall Back could be on a 35-40s cooldown, and it grants the Deadeye 2 - 3.5 seconds of Resistance and 2 - 4 seconds of reduced incoming condition damage/duration -- so they can safely leave their knelt position and take another position somewhere else even if they're likely to leave Kneel and run into a crippling/immobilizing/chilling/slowing effect.

I got your point, but wouldn't that make DE more similar to engineers? Currently, adding more skill buttons for DE would result in trickier balancing and clunkiness..But it's subjective.

And that's my thought. The profession's fine, but need several meaningful tweaking. Let's just hope they keep their promise to keep an eye to this spec.I always try to make it work, despite it need some rework, anyway.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Riddle.2714 said:Absurd dmg & 1800 range don't go well together. Can't expect to get both :(. But again, DE is single target oriented.

The problem here is the unsolvable disconnect between PvE and PvP. In PvE, extreme range has no benefit unless you can kill the enemy before he can reach you. There is no point to having 1500+ range if you can't kill most enemies before they can cover 1500 range. In PvP, you have many more ways to control an area if you have 1500+ range, and enemies can have a hard time reaching you if you set up properly, or you can just reset and run from the fight when they get too close, while still providing strategic value to the team in doing so. PvP modes can't allow players to just obliterate enemies before they can close 1500 range, but PvE requires it. Solutions have to be made that operate differently in each mode.

Init on kill is ineffective when fighting bosses. On hit would encourages 3-round burst spam aka unload v2.0.

What if it's both, and the ini on hit has an internal cooldown of like half a second? That would give you more ini for each kill you make, which is nice, but also a decent ini-pump per hit, which is also nice, and basically any attack would offer about the same total amount, because the faster attacks would only proc one dose per use due to the icd.

And I do think SOME change is needed for kneeling to not feel so awful. They need at least one solution that prevents the "I want to move, I am hitting 'left,' why am I NOT MOVING?!!!" syndrome. I think that also, at minimum, there should be a much bigger visual signal that you are kneeling, not kneeling (since it's impossible to tell whether an Asura is kneeling or not and the icon changes are imperceptible), and the "max range" indicator on the ground needs to be up whether kneeling or not, so you can see where it is before kneeling.

[Riddle.2714]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Riddle.2714 said:Absurd dmg & 1800 range don't go well together. Can't expect to get both :(. But again, DE is single target oriented.

The problem here is the unsolvable disconnect between PvE and PvP. In PvE, extreme range has no benefit unless you can kill the enemy before he can reach you. There is no point to having 1500+ range if you can't kill most enemies before they can cover 1500 range. In PvP, you have many more ways to control an area if you have 1500+ range, and enemies can have a hard time reaching you if you set up properly, or you can just reset and run from the fight when they get too close, while still providing strategic value to the team in doing so. PvP modes can't allow players to just obliterate enemies before they can close 1500 range, but PvE requires it. Solutions have to be made that operate differently in each mode.

Yeah, it'll boil down to skill separation at the end since it's the best course.If it's so easy to make skill separation, they would've done it more frequently. Sadly, it looks like they got their hands full already.

Init on kill is ineffective when fighting bosses. On hit would encourages 3-round burst spam aka unload v2.0.

What if it's both, and the ini on hit has an internal cooldown of like half a second? That would give you more ini for each kill you make, which is nice, but also a decent ini-pump per hit, which is also nice, and basically any attack would offer about the same total amount, because the faster attacks would only proc one dose per use due to the icd.

Oh, OP said about ICD already. I missed it, my bad.If this applies only while kneeling, and not standing--why not? The goal is still the same, gaining extra init while kneeling.In short,We need to get a clear reward while acting as a sitting duck.We need to get better at seeking opportunity to be a sitting duck.

And I do think SOME change is needed for kneeling to not feel so awful. They need at least one solution that prevents the "I want to move, I am hitting 'left,' why am I NOT MOVING?!!!" syndrome. I think that also, at minimum, there should be a much bigger visual signal that you are kneeling, not kneeling (since it's impossible to tell whether an Asura is kneeling or not and the icon changes are imperceptible), and the "max range" indicator on the ground needs to be up whether kneeling or not, so you can see where it is before kneeling.

Personally I've gotten used to it, but yeah they could at least change the background of stand up to different color rather than red. Blue maybe?Range indicator is too thin. I mean, it's just a single, thin white line 1500 range away. The problem rises when zerging--rather hard to see the line. But making it appears constantly might be disturbing

[Ohoni.6057]

@Riddle.2714 said:Personally I've gotten used to it, but yeah they could at least change the background of stand up to different color rather than red. Blue maybe?Range indicator is too thin. I mean, it's just a single, thin white line 1500 range away. The problem rises when zerging--rather hard to see the line. But making it appears constantly might be disturbing

True, but they need something. Kneeling and then finding out that the enemies are like 100 outside of range so you have to stand up or roll is so annoying. And I'm thinking that to show that you're kneeling, there should either be a big icon over your head (that only you can see), or the edges of the screen change color, something massive. This is an issue a lot of the PoF classes have, they have unique "forms" that you need to be in to be doing your best, but it's sometimes hard to notice whether you're in or out of them, and it doesn't help when outside effects can knock you out of them.

[Barzah.8019]

the weapon just need minor improvement to become super good just sayin

[Tabootrinket.2631]

I would like it if dodging in kneeling position gave initiative.