So about the Olmakhan's ship...

I see nobody talking about this, but the ship where the Elder's throne seats are is a ship that according to some documents "fell from the sky". Now, this was long before the Inquest and maybe even before than we had ships in Tyria. Could this ship be Canthan? If it is, it actually hypes Cantha as more technologically advanced than Tyria. Maybe even steampunk?

Those spikes look a bit Charry though, if you ask me.

https://imgur.com/h33czyMhttps://imgur.com/KfHITFy

@"MakubeC.3026" said:Now, this was long before the Inquest

Er, no. Definitely not.

Recent times have brought hints of a troubled, larger world that threatens to wash away our peace. First came the spread of the cruel little ones across these islands, with their stone and crystal wonders that defy gravity and their unnatural creations brought to life with unfamiliar magics.Then came the great iron sky-whale, breathing smog and flame as it crashed into the soft sands of our shoreline. Its metal shell protects our elder council as they meet to plan our response to the threat of the Inquest, and we've begun to fortify our structures with its iron skeleton.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Of_Maelstroms

Furthermore, Rata Primus is overarchingly continuing research from the Crucible of Eternity (as well as elsewhere). Which implies it's a post-Personal Story construction. In turn this means that the Inquest showed up in 1326 or later, and therefore so did the airship (for reference, the personal story took place in 1325, with the conclusion, Zhaitan's death, in 1326 per S3 presented timeline).

The model itself is 100% a crashed Pact Airship, however it's far larger than most such airships. Could be intended to be a Pact Flagship like the Glory of Tyria, but the crashed remains of those in Verdant Brink are different so that's unlikely.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"MakubeC.3026" said:Now, this was long before the Inquest

Recent times have brought hints of a troubled, larger world that threatens to wash away our peace.

First came the spread of the cruel little ones

across these islands, with their stone and crystal wonders that defy gravity and their unnatural creations brought to life with unfamiliar magics.

Then came the great iron sky-whale,

breathing smog and flame as it crashed into the soft sands of our shoreline. Its metal shell protects our elder council as they meet to plan our response to the threat of the Inquest, and we've begun to fortify our structures with its iron skeleton.

Seems like I misread that, or rather interpreted what I wanted.Thank you for the clarification.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"MakubeC.3026" said:Now, this was long before the Inquest

Recent times have brought hints of a troubled, larger world that threatens to wash away our peace.

First came the spread of the cruel little ones

across these islands, with their stone and crystal wonders that defy gravity and their unnatural creations brought to life with unfamiliar magics.

Then came the great iron sky-whale,

breathing smog and flame as it crashed into the soft sands of our shoreline. Its metal shell protects our elder council as they meet to plan our response to the threat of the Inquest, and we've begun to fortify our structures with its iron skeleton.

What do you think it is then?

I hadn’t read that info yet and when I saw it I thought it looked exactly like a Charr ship hull. The assets in the area are at least partially from Ascalon

@Fenom.9457 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"MakubeC.3026" said:Now, this was long before the Inquest

Recent times have brought hints of a troubled, larger world that threatens to wash away our peace.

First came the spread of the cruel little ones

across these islands, with their stone and crystal wonders that defy gravity and their unnatural creations brought to life with unfamiliar magics.

Then came the great iron sky-whale,

breathing smog and flame as it crashed into the soft sands of our shoreline. Its metal shell protects our elder council as they meet to plan our response to the threat of the Inquest, and we've begun to fortify our structures with its iron skeleton.

Since all we know is 'airship, but around triple the scale', it could be any one of the factions that have that technology and are willing to experiment with it. Pact, Aetherblade, Kryta, Lion's Arch, presumably the Iron Legion and Inquest, although neither of those would be my first pick for this thing somehow ending up in Elona. Hell, we know that Captain Sly was able to purchase an airship before last episode, which means there's a market for these things stretching all the way to Istan by now. Figuring out who it belongs to without identifying markings isn't going to be any easier than identifying an unmarked shipwreck.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"MakubeC.3026" said:Now, this was long before the Inquest

Recent times have brought hints of a troubled, larger world that threatens to wash away our peace.

First came the spread of the cruel little ones

across these islands, with their stone and crystal wonders that defy gravity and their unnatural creations brought to life with unfamiliar magics.

Then came the great iron sky-whale,

breathing smog and flame as it crashed into the soft sands of our shoreline. Its metal shell protects our elder council as they meet to plan our response to the threat of the Inquest, and we've begun to fortify our structures with its iron skeleton.

Well the fact that they are now continuing the research from CoE dos not mean that the whole construction was built after the personal story. It could have been build years before and they had some other research going on there.

@"Underdark.3726" said:Well the fact that they are now continuing the research from CoE dos not mean that the whole construction was built after the personal story. It could have been build years before and they had some other research going on there.

It's possibly but fairly unlikely. There isn't a single piece of research seen that isn't somehow related to new developments or from PS experiments which were held in now-destroyed labs.

Unless they removed all prior research, which seems unlikely. Furthermore the base is still under construction as seen in Eastern Complex, which shows that it hasn't been around very long, when even Crucible of Eternity was for all intents and purposes completed; and all dialogue about the Inquest is that their appearance is "recent". The personal story happened 6 years ago, which certainly borders the lengthy end of 'recent'.

Sly can buy an airship. Probably Charr engineering bought and paid for by the Inquest to continue on CoE for obvious reasons. In the end, the origins likely point back to Evon Gnashblade. The real enemy of GW2: capitalism.

Found this quandary a few days ago, was suspecting an airship from orr, however with how common airships are becoming, it really could be anyone. It has parts from both small class and large class airships, so it may be a new medium hybrid airship? My guess is it's a hint of a upcoming story line.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Underdark.3726" said:Well the fact that they are now continuing the research from CoE dos not mean that the whole construction was built after the personal story. It could have been build years before and they had some other research going on there.

There are several labs doing unrelated research, however the invasion of joko seems to have put most projects on hold due to researchers spontaneously, praising joko.

the Magnetics Lab, Portalforge Lab, Subject S. are all unrelated projects being researched(or where) at Rata Primus. It's more likely that most projects that are not being run by high ranking inquest have been canned to fight back the invading army, and with most high ranking inquest focused on dragon research, those projects did not get stopped.

There's no real way to know exactly when Rata primus construction began. The eastern complex could have just been a recent addition. We do know it happened post zhaitan rising from "of Maelstorms" text. It is likely recent, but there is no way to know if recent is 10 years ago or 1 year ago.

@zerorogue.9410 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:It's possibly but fairly unlikely. There isn't a single piece of research seen that isn't somehow related to new developments or from PS experiments which were held in now-destroyed labs.

Unless they removed

all

prior research, which seems unlikely. Furthermore the base is still under construction as seen in Eastern Complex, which shows that it hasn't been around very long, when even Crucible of Eternity was for all intents and purposes completed; and all dialogue about the Inquest is that their appearance is "recent". The personal story happened 6 years ago, which certainly borders the lengthy end of 'recent'.

It should be noted that CoE was more than just "creating a controllable dragon champion that had the power of multiple dragons". Something many people forget a lot since the other stuff weren't the main focus. Experimental Lab Green, for example, studied teleportation without an end gate destination, which would be what Joko took advantage of. Most of the other labs have similarities with other past Inquest research, such as that Portalforge Lab being very similar to the Synergetics PS teleporter device.

As far as I've seen there are 11 labs/experiments going on:

• Subject Beta, a direct continuation of CoE's primary purpose.
• Teleporter Gates without end-gates, a direct continuation of CoE's Experimental Lab Green.
• Three labs for specific dragon minion advancements, though focused on Kralkatorrik's new abilities now; a direct continuation of CoE's "Evolved" minions.
• Portalforge Lab, a continuation of the Interspatial Translocator from the PS.
• Study of Holographic Soldiers, a continuation of Elli's (and possibly Scarlet's) developments from the PS.
• Magnetics Lab, which seems to be brand new.
• Subject S, a study on mutating skritt somehow (I'm not sure of the specifics so there may or may not be be a core-game equivalent).
• Study of ley lines, which is post-CoE discovery.
• Study of Scarab Plague, which is post-CoE discovery.

Much like Rata Primus, Crucible of Eternity was an "overarching Inquest facility with many purposes." And much like Rata Primus, the "main experiments" are studying dragon minions - not just the combination of draconic energies within a controllable champion, but the study of individual dragon minion powers too. Even so, almost all of these studies are either continuation of core Inquest studies, or of discoveries post-core game (e.g., ley lines).

The fact these are all post-Personal Story indicates that Rata Primus itself is post-Personal Story, ergo built in 1326 or later. Unless Rata Primus began as simply the Magnetics Lab alone. But based on the heart NPC, that itself is relatively new - and short lived - experimentation.

It should also be noted that the "high ranking inquest" have not canned anything to fight back the Awakened... Their tactics, as shown in the ambient dialogue, is simply "hide the existence of the Awakened and get everyone to keep working". Some Inquest have even noticed this and suggest that the upper management had become Awakened.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:As far as I've seen there are 11 labs/experiments going on:

• Subject Beta, a direct continuation of CoE's primary purpose.
• Teleporter Gates without end-gates, a direct continuation of CoE's Experimental Lab Green.
• Three labs for specific dragon minion advancements, though focused on Kralkatorrik's new abilities now; a direct continuation of CoE's "Evolved" minions.
• Portalforge Lab, a continuation of the Interspatial Translocator from the PS.
• Study of Holographic Soldiers, a continuation of Elli's (and possibly Scarlet's) developments from the PS.
• Magnetics Lab, which seems to be brand new.
• Subject S, a study on mutating skritt somehow (I'm not sure of the specifics so there may or may not be be a core-game equivalent).
• Study of ley lines, which is post-CoE discovery.
• Study of Scarab Plague, which is post-CoE discovery.

First off similarity does not mean causality plenty of identical inventions have been thought up without any connection between them.Ley Lines, have been known for hundreds of years. The exalted even had a map of them 200 years ago. It has only been recently (post scarlet), ley lines are becoming a focus because of the whole magic becoming unstable thing. However you know asurans would be all over something underground and magical.

Subject S is a study of skritt hive mind. Similar research is being done by Brill Alliance Labs. But once again similarity does not mean causality.

Scarab Plague is probably Post-CoE as it's re-discovery happened only shortly after you arrived.

The fact these are all post-Personal Story indicates that Rata Primus itself is post-Personal Story, ergo built in 1326 or later. Unless Rata Primus began as simply the Magnetics Lab alone. But based on the heart NPC, that itself is relatively new - and short lived - experimentation.

Building's and labs in the real world are re purposed all the time for new projects. Not to mention a Significantly large facility, with as you say, the outside labs only recently being created. It would take years to find and plan a location for Rata Primus, let alone build it. The layout of the labs too show evidence of staged expansion, First the cube, then the labs surrounding, then the outer labs such as the Magnetics Lab, and Lab Sigma-05. for all this to have been done in 4 years is unrealistic and ridiculous.

It should also be noted that the "high ranking inquest" have not canned anything to fight back the Awakened... Their tactics, as shown in the ambient dialogue, is simply "hide the existence of the Awakened and get everyone to keep working". Some Inquest have even noticed this and suggest that the upper management had become Awakened.

If the lab is covered in tar and undead, your project is pretty much canned. The unaffected areas are being told everything is ok. However someone has to stop the awakened while the others work. That would undoubtedly fall on the lower ranking asurans who's labs are now tar pools.

@zerorogue.9410 said:First off similarity does not mean causality plenty of identical inventions have been thought up without any connection between them.Ley Lines, have been known for hundreds of years. The exalted even had a map of them 200 years ago. It has only been recently (post scarlet), ley lines are becoming a focus because of the whole magic becoming unstable thing. However you know asurans would be all over something underground and magical.

This isn't the first time we see the Inquest stealing others' research and establishing their own lab to study it without concerns of morality, and this isn't the first time we've seen the Inquest create a subsequent lab to study the same thing after the first one blew up (Crucible of Eternity was a continuation of Thaumanova research, built after Thaumanova exploded). (Source) If something happens many times already, it's bound to happen again.

It's a very, very, VERY heavy plot point in late Season 1 that ley lines were only theorized at best until 1320 AE at the very earliest, and even then only confirmed existence to Scarlet Briar - the Inquest couldn't have known until 1324/5 AE, when Thaumanova exploded. Those experiments could not have happened prior to this point.

@zerorogue.9410 said:Subject S is a study of skritt hive mind. Similar research is being done by Brill Alliance Labs. But once again similarity does not mean causality.

Except that skritt do not have a hive mind. And from what I saw with Subject S, that skritt gets physically larger and stronger with more skritt nearby. Furthermore, he glows. That's more than simple study of the skritt's hyper communication.

@zerorogue.9410 said:Building's and labs in the real world are re purposed all the time for new projects. Not to mention a Significantly large facility, with as you say, the outside labs only recently being created. It would take years to find and plan a location for Rata Primus, let alone build it. The layout of the labs too show evidence of staged expansion, First the cube, then the labs surrounding, then the outer labs such as the Magnetics Lab, and Lab Sigma-05. for all this to have been done in 4 years is unrealistic and ridiculous.

Lion's Arch was literally built within a few weeks once they actually had the plans and materials. Crucible of Eternity within months at best. I think you're underestimating Tyrians. The notion that Rata Primus could be built within 5 years (not 4, we're in 1331 now) is not that unlikely.

As for repurposing, if you actually look at the rooms, they're literally designed for those experiments, not just the devices, but the placement of walls, doors, and platforms too. Repurposing those labs would mean gutting out the room and refurnishing it too. This is unlikely to occur when you are expanding the facility still - your materials are already going elsewhere.

Furthermore, just listen to the Olmakhan. Their conversations about the Inquest doesn't reflect knowing about the Inquest for over 10 years. Hardly matches knowing them for 5. Do you really think the Olmakhan would be able to sit through 10+ years of their hunters going missing at a higher than normal rate? Even as peaceful as they are, they're not that submissive.

@zerorogue.9410 said:If the lab is covered in tar and undead, your project is pretty much canned. The unaffected areas are being told everything is ok. However someone has to stop the awakened while the others work. That would undoubtedly fall on the lower ranking asurans who's labs are now tar pools.

There's a difference between a project being canned, and a project being forcibly stopped by outside forces.

It also could be a normal sea fairing ship and not a air ship. The construction does look to be 100% Charr but from how long ago ? Was that the ship who brought the Olmakhan to sandswept or did it crash/wash ashore after their settlement their ?

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This isn't the first time we see the Inquest stealing others' research and establishing their own lab to study it without concerns of morality, and this isn't the first time we've seen the Inquest create a subsequent lab to study the same thing after the first one blew up (Crucible of Eternity was a continuation of Thaumanova research, built after Thaumanova exploded). (Source) If something happens many times already, it's bound to happen again.

It's a very, very, VERY heavy plot point in late Season 1 that ley lines were only theorized at best until 1320 AE at the very earliest, and even then only confirmed existence to Scarlet Briar - the Inquest couldn't have known until 1324/5 AE, when Thaumanova exploded. Those experiments could not have happened prior to this point.The events of thaumanova are likely the cause of CoE's creation. As not only where both dragon magic(chaos as they called it then) and the inquest where the ones doing it. The inquest do steal technology, however not everything they do is stolen.

Speaking of Thaumanova, It was built there because there was a ley line there. Additionally during the heavy plot point of ley lines in season 1 characters refers to ley lines as an established fact, not something theorized. The only thing scarlet did was map them, but the existence of ley lines is an established fact for years.

In fact. Going back to gw1 Festival Coordinator Tsuru spoke of ley lines three hundred years before the events of gw2.

From https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Wayfarer%27s_Reverie:_CanthaFestival Coordinator Tsuru"The Wayfarer's Reverie is a celebration of the secrets of this world. The spirit of adventure is a yearning for those secrets, a desire to find the world's places of power.The Dragon Empire is home to many such ley points. The festival is a time for journeys. Perhaps you wish to make a pilgrimage to some of Cantha's sacred lands?"

And this was not put in the game at start but the same year they started living story season 1 in gw2.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Except that skritt do not have a hive mind. And from what I saw with Subject S, that skritt gets physically larger and stronger with more skritt nearby. Furthermore, he glows. That's more than simple study of the skritt's hyper communication.

See:

From https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Those_Sneaky,_Sneaky_SkrittNo one really knows how the skritt hive-like intelligence works. The most likely theory is that the skritt simply communicate so rapidly that, when together, they can vet their ideas and choose the best one within seconds, rather than going with whatever plan each individual first conceived. Certainly, the skritt have exceptionally sharp auditory skills. They can communicate with one another almost instantly if they are within earshot. If you meet one skritt alone, he might not appear particularly intelligent, but if you meet several, they can discuss their surroundings in amazingly swift, almost ultrasonic chirrups and chitters, and are able to process information and make more intelligent decisions. Therefore, the skritt seem less intelligent in small groups and more intelligent when they gather in larger ones. Because of this, the skritt in their scratches are the most intelligent—and possibly the most dangerous. Even the bravest asura hesitate to attack a hollow when it is filled with skritt.

The skritt get progressively more intelligent the more skritt are around. This is the closest to a hive mind than anything in gw2. Their study was to see what they could do with the hive mind abilities of the skritt. Subject S is a modified skritt that also gains increased abilities from nearby skritt as well. What the inquest did to accomplish this, is unknown, let's just hope he never finds his way to a populated skritt area less we have to deal with the god of shinnies in the near future.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Lion's Arch was literally built within a few weeks once they actually had the plans and materials. Crucible of Eternity within months at best. I think you're underestimating Tyrians. The notion that Rata Primus could be built within 5 years (not 4, we're in 1331 now) is not that unlikely.

As for repurposing, if you actually look at the rooms, they're literally designed for those experiments, not just the devices, but the placement of walls, doors, and platforms too. Repurposing those labs would mean gutting out the room and refurnishing it too. This is unlikely to occur when you are expanding the facility still - your materials are already going elsewhere.

Furthermore, just listen to the Olmakhan. Their conversations about the Inquest doesn't reflect knowing about the Inquest for over 10 years. Hardly matches knowing them for 5. Do you really think the Olmakhan would be able to sit through 10+ years of their hunters going missing at a higher than normal rate? Even as peaceful as they are, they're not that submissive.

I will admit building speeds are unrealistic in Gw2.As for re-purposing the inquest buildings are obviously modular, such systems are designed to quickly be changed for whatever need. And if build times are so fast, they could probably do it in a mere hours.

Lastly, the Olmakhan would have only needed to worry about abductions in recent weeks as testing for the scarab plague would have been only recent. Before that, it would have been an undiscussed truce.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There's a difference between a project being canned, and a project being forcibly stopped by outside forces.

Unless the inquest keep vast armies at their bases to defend against wildlife, I'm pretty sure they would have needed to use some researchers as conscripts. Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to hold back an awakened army spearheaded by joko himself for more than a few hours. With the amount of tar everywhere it is highly likely that the awaken have been there for days if not weeks. In fact its likely joko began his assault 3 months ago at the same time as the end of episode 1, when he discovered the inquest at the first city.

@starhunter.6015 said:It also could be a normal sea fairing ship and not a air ship. The construction does look to be 100% Charr but from how long ago ? Was that the ship who brought the Olmakhan to sandswept or did it crash/wash ashore after their settlement their ?

The scrolls from the Lorekeeper talk about an iron sky-whale which basically proves that the wreck there is an Airship.

@"starhunter.6015" said:It also could be a normal sea fairing ship and not a air ship. The construction does look to be 100% Charr but from how long ago ? Was that the ship who brought the Olmakhan to sandswept or did it crash/wash ashore after their settlement their ?

It's called a "iron sky-whale" in one of the lorekeeper hut's objects (I quoted it in my first post in this thread). Unless it's a boat that got tossed up, that would mark it an airship. I would also think they'd be able to recognize a naval ship, even if made out of metal, but an airship would be out of their realm of understanding as technologically primitive as they are.

@zerorogue.9410 said:Speaking of Thaumanova, It was built there because there was a ley line there. Additionally during the heavy plot point of ley lines in season 1 characters refers to ley lines as an established fact, not something theorized. The only thing scarlet did was map them, but the existence of ley lines is an established fact for years.

Re: Thaumanova. It should be noted that it was a city, not solely an Inquest facility. We don't know why it was built, let alone why there, but it's a city so it was bound to have been built for the same purpose as any other city. If it was built due to the ley lines, it would have been due to "heavy ambient magic" and not "there be ley lines here".

Re Season 1 and ley lines: "The Existence of ley lines has long been theorized, and they have had many names. In 1316, a sylvari named Ceara (alias Scarlet Briar) found proof."https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ley_Line_Theory_671

Note that the 1316 is a typo for 1326, as Prosperity's Mystery showed.

Everything was that they were just being discovered, but that asura (particularly synergetics) have theorized their existence for a while.

@zerorogue.9410 said:In fact. Going back to gw1 Festival Coordinator Tsuru spoke of ley lines three hundred years before the events of gw2.

I think you need to read the context of the line "ley point" - which would be points of interest or a traditional waypoint. Or did you just search "ley" and saw a result and go "HEY IT'S MENTIONED!" Ley lines aren't even a thing in core GW2 lore. The entire concept was literally created, let alone introduced, with with Season 1.

@zerorogue.9410 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Except that skritt do not have a hive mind. And from what I saw with Subject S, that skritt gets

physically larger

and stronger with more skritt nearby. Furthermore,

he glows

. That's more than simple study of the skritt's hyper communication.

From

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Those_Sneaky,_Sneaky_Skritt

No one really knows how the skritt

hive-like intelligence

works. The most likely theory is that the skritt simply communicate so rapidly that, when together, they can vet their ideas and choose the best one within seconds, rather than going with whatever plan each individual first conceived. Certainly, the skritt have exceptionally sharp auditory skills. They can communicate with one another almost instantly if they are within earshot. If you meet one skritt alone, he might not appear particularly intelligent, but if you meet several, they can discuss their surroundings in amazingly swift, almost ultrasonic chirrups and chitters, and are able to process information and make more intelligent decisions. Therefore, the skritt seem less intelligent in small groups and more intelligent when they gather in larger ones. Because of this, the skritt in their scratches are the most intelligent—and possibly the most dangerous. Even the bravest asura hesitate to attack a hollow when it is filled with skritt.

From the very same document:

Also, as the asura will tell you (or as any careful observer might note), the skritt actually gain intelligence when many of them congregate. Speaking in chirps and squeaks so fast that it sounds like buzzing to human ears, they share information, parse knowledge, and determine actions between themselves. The more skritt there are to do so, the more rational, intelligent, and cunning their activities become. One skritt alone is a simple-minded individual, capable of performing basic tasks and keeping himself alive, but an entire colony of hundreds? Clever enough to challenge even the brainpower of the asura.

@zerorogue.9410 said:Lastly, the Olmakhan would have only needed to worry about abductions in recent weeks as testing for the scarab plague would have been only recent. Before that, it would have been an undiscussed truce.

You speak as if the Scarab Plague would be the sole case of experimenting that the Inquest could use. All the while still ignoring the context of the Olmakhan's references to the Inquest's recent activities.

Furthermore, in Fahranur, we see that the Inquest actually had access there for over 17 years:

Ley-Line Core has been operational for seven years, eleven months, twenty-two days, nine hours, two minutes, fifty-three seconds.

Package 7 status ExceptionYour package was unable to be delivered. Last attempted delivery was—seventeen years, eight months, and nine days—ago.Please contact support to reschedule delivery.

So they had that Scarab Plague samples for a while.

@zerorogue.9410 said:Unless the inquest keep vast armies at their bases to defend against wildlife, I'm pretty sure they would have needed to use some researchers as conscripts. Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to hold back an awakened army spearheaded by joko himself for more than a few hours. With the amount of tar everywhere it is highly likely that the awaken have been there for days if not weeks. In fact its likely joko began his assault 3 months ago at the same time as the end of episode 1, when he discovered the inquest at the first city.

You're speaking as if they've been fighting back, despite the ambient dialogue pretty much telling us that they haven't been because the upper management have been telling them "there is no Awakened invasion".

Or that they don't have a very obviously visual army of golems on site.

Or that Joko isn't out for conquering the place, but slow overtaking.

Also, Joko didn't discover the Inquest at Fahranur during the events of Daybreak, but earlier. The screams of Inquest we heard were old recordings. How much earlier is unclear, but he didn't have access to the asura gates (thus why he needed Taimi) until Daybreak.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Re: Thaumanova. It should be noted that it was a city, not solely an Inquest facility. We don't know why it was built, let alone why there, but it's a city so it was bound to have been built for the same purpose as any other city. If it was built due to the ley lines, it would have been due to "heavy ambient magic" and not "there be ley lines here".

Re Season 1 and ley lines: "The Existence of ley lines has long been theorized, and they have had many names. In 1316, a sylvari named Ceara (alias Scarlet Briar) found proof."https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ley_Line_Theory_671

Note that the 1316 is a typo for 1326, as Prosperity's Mystery showed.

Being that we had multiple characters mention ley lines without explanation(as if common knowledge) , mention of ley points in gw1 cantha, and a map of ley lines by the exalted 200 years prior. I'm going to still weigh on my original thought; Ley lines where a known but not fully researched thing. Something that scarlet knew of and used the inquest and her own tech to research and map so she could find the right hub to use for awakening mordremoth.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Everything was that they were just being discovered, but that asura (particularly synergetics) have theorized their existence for a while.

It says right in the book, one sentience before what you quoted, that he was from the College of Dynamic.

As for skritt; Hive intelligence does not require a psychic link or some sort of magic. Anytime a group of minds are linked in a way to share data or intellect is a hive mind. It does not matter how. It is the result that is considered a hive mind. The fact the skritt's Intelligence rises when groups of them are together proves a hive mind. No matter if there just talking really fast, being psychic, or waving their arms to do it.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:You're speaking as if they've been fighting back, despite the ambient dialogue pretty much telling us that they haven't been because the upper management have been telling them "there is no Awakened invasion".

This is what there telling the researchers in active labs so they don't panic and run away.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Or that they don't have a very obviously visual army of golems on site.

Why do they have an army if as you said there telling everyone "there is no Awakened invasion" ?

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Or that Joko isn't out for conquering the place, but slow overtaking.

WHY?! He wants the scarab plague, why would he be willing to twiddle his thumbs while its right there in the cube??? He's only there for the plauge, otherwise he would have already taken over this place years ago. If he's able to find single sunspears in the northern crystal desert, I'm pretty sure he at least sent some scout to the sand swept isles to find this base a long time ago.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Package 7 status ExceptionYour package was unable to be delivered. Last attempted delivery was—

seventeen years,

eight months, and nine days—ago.Please contact support to reschedule delivery.

This actually gives a good time when Rata Primus was made, 1313 AE

@zerorogue.9410 said:Being that we had multiple characters mention ley lines without explanation(as if common knowledge) , mention of ley points in gw1 cantha, and a map of ley lines by the exalted 200 years prior. I'm going to still weigh on my original thought; Ley lines where a known but not fully researched thing. Something that scarlet knew of and used the inquest and her own tech to research and map so she could find the right hub to use for awakening mordremoth.

We had two. Literally two NPCs that introduced ley lines. Taimi and Scarlet.

Every other NPC in Season 1 - including Kiel, Marjory, Kasmeer, Vorpp, Braham, and Rox - talked about ley lines after learning from one of those two.

As I said, context is important for that Wayfarer's Reverie comment of ley points - not only never is "ley lines" or hubs referred to as "ley points", but that NPC was simply talked about famous sites. Unless you're going to argue that a lone but otherwise insignificant tree in a dense metropolis is actually a ley line hub.

The Exalted got their knowledge of ley lines from Rata Novus, who had proven the existence separately before Scarlet, but given their isolationistic nature this knowledge never spread to Rata Sum, and likely never outside of the two communities. It should be noted that the trip to Kesho never mentions ley lines either - though I'd imagine that Forgotten and Glint would know of them, even if not by that name.

And your last statement rather supports the fact (and it is a fact) that ley lines were unknown by the population until Scarlet - as I said, she's the one who proved their existence. And you go and say that she used her tech (specifically it was the Molten Alliance tech) to map them out. Whether she learned of ley lines from Mordremoth or not is unclear, but she discovered her first ley line in Dry Top, circa 1320-1323 AE.

@zerorogue.9410 said:It says right in the book, one sentience before what you quoted, that he was from the College of Dynamic.I was referring to Taimi's dialogue during Edge of the Mists, actually, where she states that the ley line name comes Synergetics.

@zerorogue.9410 said:As for skritt; Hive intelligence does not require a psychic link or some sort of magic. Anytime a group of minds are linked in a way to share data or intellect is a hive mind. It does not matter how. It is the result that is considered a hive mind. The fact the skritt's Intelligence rises when groups of them are together proves a hive mind. No matter if there just talking really fast, being psychic, or waving their arms to do it.

I never said otherwise for "how a group of minds are linked" but the important thing to note is that skritt minds are NOT linked. They have hyper communication, not shared mentality.

As the article that you yourself quoted - in the very part you quoted in fact; hell, the entire paragraph is all about that fast communication - states, the skritt intelligence rises due to fast communication. Another way to look at it is this: the skritt are the biological, mouse form of Geth from Mass Effect. Geth are iditiotic alone but smart in groups - why? Because they can communicate so fast that they discuss ideas and methods fast enough to make it seem like they're actually getting smarter. Talking like everyone else is too slow for them, and individually they are no smarter alone or together - they can just talk through stuff faster with others of their kind.

Imagine if we've been having this entire thread through speech, but it all took less than half a minute to converse up to this point. That is Geth. That is skritt.

@zerorogue.9410 said:Why do they have an army if as you said there telling everyone "there is no Awakened invasion" ?

Why did they have an army of golems in CoE on site? Before the Pact even assaulted the place? Because the Inquest use golems for heavy labor, as guards, as "motivators" I'm sure too, and because they produce the golems at those places.

@zerorogue.9410 said:WHY?! He wants the scarab plague, why would he be willing to twiddle his thumbs while its right there in the cube??? He's only there for the plauge, otherwise he would have already taken over this place years ago. If he's able to find single sunspears in the northern crystal desert, I'm pretty sure he at least sent some scout to the sand swept isles to find this base a long time ago.

Because he doesn't want Tyrians to mount a resistance before he could get the plague. Is that not obvious? Did the portal events not spell out that he wasn't launching a serious assault because he has other plans?

Keep in mind that the Awakened army suffered greatly during his imprisonment in the Domain of the Lost while fighting Forged and Branded. They lost half of Istan during Balthazar's campaign because of these losses up north. He does not have an eternal army, and he wants his enemies unprepared. That means not alerting the Inquest to his presence immediately - not until he can reliable locate the Scarab Plague and bypass the defenses guarding it - and making the cities of Tyria distracted on other matters while he does so.

Sandswept Isles is well outside of his empire as well - and the Awakened's presence in Desert Highlands and the Crystal Oasis is literally stated to be only a couple weeks old and no older. Otherwise the Olmakhan would be praising Joko as well. Until now, Joko had actually honored his empire's borders because he doesn't age, he can play the long game and has no need to launch nothing but full scale invasions.

@zerorogue.9410 said:This actually gives a good time when Rata Primus was made, 1313 AE

Not really. That only gives a reference for Fahranur's lab - though honestly those descriptions doesn't make much sense given that the Inquest didn't know of ley lines until Thaumanova's explosion at the earliest. And just because the Fahranur lab was connected to Primus now doesn't mean it always was. Asura gates can be retuned you know.

On ley-lines;At this point all we can do is argue over conflicting information or nit-pick at what each other says. It's best to just drop it else we spend the next few weeks arguing in circles.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Not really. That only gives a reference for Fahranur's lab - though honestly those descriptions doesn't make much sense given that the Inquest didn't know of ley lines until Thaumanova's explosion at the earliest. And just because the Fahranur lab was connected to Primus now doesn't mean it always was. Asura gates can be retuned you know.Urge to push ley lines as a common fact agian .....

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I never said otherwise for "how a group of minds are linked" but the important thing to note is that skritt minds are NOT linked. They have hyper communication, not shared mentality.

All concepts of intelligence and mind are just one group of things. communicating together at high speed.A large group of skritt communicate just as a large group of Neurons communicates.

The literal definition of hive mind is ambiguous enough to mean just a group of people talking.The sci-fi definition ranges to be just as broad to being extremely narrow to exclude all but single mind scenarios.At this point it would invalidate mordremoth, a far more established hive mind in lore, from being a hive mind.Mordremoth's minions have their own thoughts, as is the case we see them shouting orders to other Mordrem. This would not be happening if they where linked mentally, as would be able to communicate without speaking if they are completely linked.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Why did they have an army of golems in CoE on site? Before the Pact even assaulted the place? Because the Inquest use golems for heavy labor, as guards, as "motivators" I'm sure too, and because they produce the golems at those places.

I understand a small amount of Golems for labor and security, however the number and strength of the golems at this site are far in excess of enough for just labor and security. There is an obvious militarization of the resources around primus, one that would have not been done if everyone was still just working.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Because he doesn't want Tyrians to mount a resistance before he could get the plague. Is that not obvious? Did the portal events not spell out that he wasn't launching a serious assault because he has other plans?

Keep in mind that the Awakened army suffered greatly during his imprisonment in the Domain of the Lost while fighting Forged and Branded. They lost half of Istan during Balthazar's campaign because of these losses up north. He does not have an eternal army, and he wants his enemies unprepared. That means not alerting the Inquest to his presence immediately - not until he can reliable locate the Scarab Plague and bypass the defenses guarding it - and making the cities of Tyria distracted on other matters while he does so.

Sandswept Isles is well outside of his empire as well - and the Awakened's presence in Desert Highlands and the Crystal Oasis is literally stated to be only a couple weeks old and no older. Otherwise the Olmakhan would be praising Joko as well. Until now, Joko had actually honored his empire's borders because he doesn't age, he can play the long game and has no need to launch nothing but full scale invasions.

Your explanation doesn't make any sense.Joko didn't want tyrians to mount a resistance, yet he attacked all the nations before he had the plague.He needed to locate the plague, yet he had an asuran gate that lead him directly to rata primus.Joko honors borders, yet we see nothing but him oppressing those on the other side of his bone wall.

Joko acts like your typical despot who claims anything he sees that won't get him in trouble. He hassn't invaded Tyria because it was far from him and he knew fighting them would be impossible with such distance. Once he access to asuran technology that allowed him to reach tyria instantly, he immediately began to pour awakened into tyria. You say it wasn't a serious assault, yet it was enough for rox and Braham to jump into a unknown portal, that they had no idea where it went or if it would even be survivable, to try and stop the invasion at the source.

Also Joko no longer plays the long wait game, he said so himself.

@zerorogue.9410 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Why did they have an army of golems in CoE on site? Before the Pact even assaulted the place? Because the Inquest use golems for heavy labor, as guards, as "motivators" I'm sure too, and because they produce the golems at those places.

Excess, yes, but I wouldn't say it's any greater than the asura norm. Rata Sum has then golems for every Peacemaker, not even accounting for personal lab security or gladiatorial krewes or what-have-you, and the city has never experienced a major attack. The level of paranoid bluster is par for the course since they were driven to the surface.

Nor does the golem response seem particularly keyed to the Awakened, even though they are invading. Consider the frankly sickening number of golems they threw at Atholma, even though we know there were already Awakened roaming Rata Primus at that point, and compare it to the number we see engaging the Awakened. When resources are being directed more towards a lesser external threat than a greater internal one, it's hard to think of any reason besides ignorance or a cover-up.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Excess, yes, but I wouldn't say it's any greater than the asura norm. Rata Sum has then golems for every Peacemaker, not even accounting for personal lab security or gladiatorial krewes or what-have-you, and the city has never experienced a major attack. The level of paranoid bluster is par for the course since they were driven to the surface.

Nor does the golem response seem particularly keyed to the Awakened, even though they are invading. Consider the frankly sickening number of golems they threw at Atholma, even though we know there were already Awakened roaming Rata Primus at that point, and compare it to the number we see engaging the Awakened. When resources are being directed more towards a lesser external threat than a greater internal one, it's hard to think of any reason besides ignorance or a cover-up.

The Atholma invasion was more likely because of us. There was no reason to throw that many golems at the village, If they wanted to capture more Olmakhan a small raiding party ambushing wandering Olmakhan would have been significantly more effective. There no chance we where not identified at Lab Sigma-05. Hearing that the dragon slayer has arrived in the area would have likely sent the inquest leaders into a panic. So they sent a force to try and get rid of us. This is also why when it failed they sent the experimental Mark II Beta Exterminator Golem that was programmed to target the strongest person there. Unfortunately it decided Elder Narn was stronger than us.

Second off we can see multiple Suppressor Golems being deployed, (something as far as i can remember has never been done) Rip-off pact cannons, and regular inquest air turrets. We can also see the full force of the inquest when we risk one of the high value projects at the specimen lab when we have to fight off up to 50 waves of inquest while we wait for the security grid to fail.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"starhunter.6015" said:It also could be a normal sea fairing ship and not a air ship. The construction does look to be 100% Charr but from how long ago ? Was that the ship who brought the Olmakhan to sandswept or did it crash/wash ashore after their settlement their ?