[e-spec suggestion] Lich

In order to have a good excuse for getting rid of lich form (yes again!), Let's explore the possibility of a lich e-spec.The concept behind this e-spec would be that of a master of the deads, a terrifying existence that command (order) to wreck havock on the battlefield.

Adept minor trait: Lich's vessel:Unlock hammer and allow you to use curses

The hammer here is used as a catalyst just like a staff, The lich's shroud mobility and fear are moved to the hammer skill set:

Hammer#1: Soul shock: hurl a soul bolt at your foe that explode on impact and hit multiple foes. Gain 1% LF per foe stuck.Hammer#2: Fetid retreat: Leap away from your target, leaving in your place a fetid poisonous field dealing damage and poisoning foes. Last 6 second, CD 10 seconds.Hammer#3: Shadow of fear: Fear (1s) and slow (3s) foes at target location. radius 240, CD 10 seconds.Hammer#4: Malign intervention: Teleport to your foe poisoning it (2 stack for 8 seconds). If the foe is under 50% health point leave a poisonous field that deal damage and poison foes. Last 6 seconds. CD 15 seconds.Hammer#5: Cultist's fervor: Channel death energy to summon exploding corpses on the targeted area. 24 exploding corpse dealing damage to up to 3 targets each. CD 30 seconds.

The curses are simply the lich's mantra:

Heal:Curse of agony: Chant a curse, charging a spell that will instantly heal you and send 1 of your conditions onto your foe. Send 1 of your condition on up to 5 foes near you when this curse fully charge. 2 charges.Utilities:Accursed pain: Chant a curse, charging a spell that will instantly apply 5 vuln stack on your target. Apply vulnerability (x1) on nearby foes when this curse fully charge. 3 charges.Curse of failure: Chant a curse, charging a spell that will instantly blind your target. Blind ennemies around you when this curse is fully charged. 3 charges.Rotting curse: Chant a curse, charging a spell that will instantly rip a boon and poison your target. Poison nearby foes when this curse is fully charged. 2 charges.Plague curse: chant a curse, charging a spell that will instantly summon a swarm (6) of jagged horrors at your target location. 2 charges.Elite:Curse of subversion: Chant a curse, charging a spell that will instantly fear (1s) a target. Fear (1s) foes around you when this spell fully charge. 2 charges.

Shroud skills are replaced by lich's touch and orders.

F1: Lich's touch: Weapon skill that generate life force deal additionnal power damage. (additionnal damages proc shroud1 traits, count as being in shroud)Damage: 0.05*power.LF bleed: 5% per second.CD: 10 seconds.

All orders have a 1/2 second cast time.F2: Order of pain: The next 2 hits of affected allies is unblockable.LF cost: 1935Effect: unblockable (4s)radius: 600target: 5 allies.CD: 8 seconds.

F3: Order of apostasy: The next 2 hits of affected allies remove 1 boon.LF cost: 2487Effect: Boon rip (4s)radius: 600target: 5 allies.CD: 8 seconds.

F4: Order of agony: The next 5 hits of affected allies transfer a condition. For each condition successfully transfered, a charge is consumed.LF cost: 3685Effect: condition transfer (10s)radius: 600target: 5 allies.CD: 20 seconds.

F5: Order of undeath: For the next 7 seconds, allies affected take 30% less condition damage.LF cost: 4606radius: 600target: 5 allies.CD: 20 seconds.

Minor traits focus mainly on orders.Master minor trait: Invigorating orders: Gain barrier whenever you use an order.Grandmaster minor trait: Frenetic orders: Your orders also grant quickness and fury to affected allies.

Upper traitline: This is the poison traitlineAdept: Rotting touch: When you land a critical hit with your hammer apply an additionnal poison (2s) stack on hit.Master: Poisoned heart: Increase damage dealt by 10% on foes that stand in a poison field.Grandmaster: Aura of the lich: Orders now also apply to all your minions. Whenever a minion is under the effect of an order, this minion poison (2s) on hit.

Middle traitline: This traitline focus on the "F" skills.Adept: Furious offering: whenever you spend life force gain fury for 2 seconds. (F1 will grant fury every second while orders will grant fury on use)Master: Order of vampire: Order's charges additionnally drain life.Grandmaster: Ulcerous lungs: Bleed yourself and nearby foes each time you use an order. Orders are more effective (F2, F3, F4 gain more charge while F5 last 50% longer)

Bottom traitline: This traitline focus on crowd control and survivability.Adept: Meekness: Fearing a foe also apply slow (3s) on this foe.Master: Cursed flesh: Curses charge recharge 20% faster. Reduce condition damage taken by 2% for each curse charge on you.Grandmaster: Defiled aura: Aura you gain last 33% longer and additionnally poison foe (4s) when you are struck. Whenever an aura end on you, create a lesser rotting curse poisoning foes around you.

I have to be blunt about this one.

The hammerMost of the skills seem sound but why is it so weird. Hammer is a slow weapon and because its on necro its bound to be even slower than the average hammers that guardian, warrior, and revenant have. Yet i get a sense of mesmer and ele when i look at skills 2 and 5 im not sure how skill 4 would really be of any use unless the idea is to jump in then out againThe hammer even if its used like a staff hardly has any cc at all just a single 1 second fear x.x ouch....

The cursesDont seem to do all that much they are fairly too weak for utility with the exception of maybe plague curse and rotting curse. The elite curse is too weak with a baseline 1 second fear even if it has charges. The fear condition in general and to gimp an elite down to 1 second seems a bit weak.

I REALLY REALLY like the idea of curse/mantras on necro though thats something that could be neat. -imagine the sounds they would make on casting-

The traits Are not very enticing because the things they effect,"The orders", are not very enticing (to me anyways)Further more I feel like this is following in scourges footsteps. The order skills are heavily focused and don't appear to do much when you read them alone but together considering your proposed traits and current existing shroud skill traits that would effect them they quickly become overloaded with several effects being on each.Missing the cd reduction on the hammer which i assume would go on the when you critically hit trait. (although this spec seems mostly geared to condition)

Jokes aside from the first line in your post, I don't feel enough of the current lich form in this. Lich elite is a power based spectral that deals exceptionally high damage and your suggestion comes off as a weird mix of complete support meets partly retouched condition minion master.

I mean the support is there although alot of it wont be super useful in pve up till you start looking at party condition transfer and condition damage reduction + quickness. Due to the recent years of necro being the "First target of focus" in PvP I dont see this spec being able to survive anything that comes at it for more than 2 seconds. It literally has no power potential to stop foes form coming at it and its main condition seems to be poison. God forbid the orders all have cast times then you can even use those as proper trait shroud procs to defend with.

On the other hand if i analyze and think about this and flip the script for a few seconds to the best case idea.

Conditions people cant see the dangers of wont stop people from diving your face. In the even it works out for the better that way that you could say pop f1 > Dagger auto/skills > apply tons of might , quickness,fury , barrier and lf to yourself> while stacking bleed, dhummfire, and draining life like a mad man on your foe and down them then thats just an overloaded skill that needs to be nerfed and we have scourge 2.0. Cause people die for diving on you and you kill them with no tell cause instant condition boom melting.

I get the idea of wanting proposing ideas that can get people to want the necro in end game pve more than ever before but I think unless necro gets a fixed rework formthe ground up looking at ideas without a shroud that overloads (f skills) like this is bad concept we should not want to reapeat. Not to mention another support condition spec with little promise of a power option. >.<

That said let me actually try to make some of this feed back a bit more positive.

My suggestion if you really want the lich skill removed (although it removes one of the few viable core elite skills ) would be to look at going back to a more shroud based design. Without using a 2nd health bar. Make this a high power spec as lich is a power based elite. Consider taking each of the lich skills and reworking them into that shroud transform in new ways that makes them more powerful than standard weapon skills like holosmith has. Find a way to limit how much or how long that form can be used. This is all based on the idea that core necro does not change and lose its shroud function which in turn changes everything layered on top (and it likely wont) but it makes the traits and skills that come with new specs easier to handle and prevents skill overload like with scourge.

Generally mantras usually effect the caster more so than their foes but yours need to only focus on your foe other wise they would hardly be called curses. And to only have 2 charges the majority of them are far too weak. Bind only? 5 vuln only? heal and clear one condi only? Rip 1 boon and apply one poison only? to make these honestly work you are probably going to have to make a few new debuff effects in the process as i said you should focus on looking at the current theme and skills of lich form and pull from that. One thing in the draft for my "Wraith" spec suggestion for example was the possibility of having a trait or utility for stealing vitality just the lich skill does.

Ive said it once and ill say it once more stooooop trying to pour so much support into everything. You literally let it over take the whole bases of your idea. leaving it with absolutely nothing for itself except f skill procs. All it takes is 1 good thing to make a profession wanted in endgame pve we dont need 10 kinda-okish things. Just 1 good thing and it does not even have to be on a support based spec.

Generally if you the spec to be "a terrifying existence that wrecks havock on the battlefield." its going to need something to make it terrifying (ideally its damage and pressure) and something that wreaks havock (its control effects via its curses or additions such as minions). In which case this proposition has a 1 minion skill that was taken from lich form and the rest of them being far to weak to hardly make much havock.

Lot of good ideas, Dadnir. This e-spec looks very PvP / dueling oriented. I did notice the ammo utilities did not have damage attached but expect you intended there be some, anyway.

@"ZDragon.3046"I designed the hammer in much the same way as staff was designed for DD: the opposite of what someone would expect. It's basically a second staff.

The curses are volontary weak, the idea behind them is more that you want to use the first charge and wait for it to fully recharge and to proc the "full charge effect". It might be a good idea to develop further the effects but I didn't want to put to much things on them. Ah I didn't put any stack numbers on curse charge... Well, just imagine a number of stacks that can be seen as burst if you blow your charge and sustain damage if you use them carefully.

The "shroud skills/order" use life force to put pressure on your foes. One thing that you might not have seen is that F1 isn't an order. But you are right on spot when you describe the spec as a glass cannon. The gameplay idea is more based on going in and out of melee range thanks to the hammer, using F1 to put some to make use of shroud1 traits and pump up some power for you and your teammate by spending life force with orders. And yes, dagger main hand is the perfect weapon to go along with the hammer.

NB.: Thanksfully, you still cannot slot more than 3 traitlines so you won't have might/burn/vampiric at the same time. Also, my phrasing of F1 is kinda wrong, the idea is that the LF gain from necromancer's weapon skills is replaced by a damage proc that proc shroud 1 trait. While under F1 you no longer gain LF from weapon skills (I'd agree that it would be op otherwise).

NB.(2): Lich form is crap through and through why would I want to give it all back? Anyway, from the beginning, if you remove lich form, you have to replace it by another skill that fit the spectral thematic. Let's say, that lich form is replaced by something close to (if not) grim specter. The auto attack is already the same as staff auto so I won't miss it. Like you said one of the skill is close to summon madness. This leave us with ripple of horror (mobility/fear which are fairly represented in this e-spec) and lich gaze (vulnerability). Objectively, everything is more or less there except for power damage, but tell me, in regard of pure dps, what's the dps of lich form taking into account it's short uptime? Lich form have a decent burst but a negligible dps, in the end this e-spec can probably increase more the necromancer's power damage than lich form can.

Please dont mind my nerdy but super critical feedback here or take it in a bad way. I took a bit more time to think on this one over before writing back.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I designed the hammer in much the same way as staff was designed for DD: the opposite of what someone would expect. It's basically a second staff.The thing is DD didnt have a 2 handed weapon before that they could use of any kind. Necro already has a staff another staff as cool as this idea is does have a bit of a concern factor. I admit i like the idea of holding the hammer in a unique staff like animation IN FACT IT WOULD BE COOL AF! butttt... already having a staff weapon im seriously questioning the idea of it. Hopefully we wont be looking at another rev hammer with the over head swing auto or the current staff auto necro has.My only other notes on hammer are to toss much more LF gen in to some of the other skills.

The curses are volontary weak, the idea behind them is more that you want to use the first charge and wait for it to fully recharge and to proc the "full charge effect". It might be a good idea to develop further the effects but I didn't want to put to much things on them. Ah I didn't put any stack numbers on curse charge... Well, just imagine a number of stacks that can be seen as burst if you blow your charge and sustain damage if you use them carefully.

My issue with this theory is how you worded it. It makes me think its very uncontrolled and overly complicated to use to its maximum effectiveness and thus its limited with weaker effects "Just cause risk reward"

Activate to apply x effect "on your target" vs Passive waiting/ when you reach max charge apply x effect "Foes around you"

This implies that the active is ranged while the passive only triggers around you. No current mantras have passives like this and to me it comes off directly being used to make them overall weaker with the idea that if you play them perfect you get more. We both know how anet plays risk reward with necro and thats just not something i want to see more of in its kit till they learn to be a bit more fair with it. Just being more direct and forward with more effects on activation might be a better route to take.

The "shroud skills/order" use life force to put pressure on your foes.I dont see how that happens when most of them are effects like (remove a boon, unblockable, xfer a condition). Directly these give the necro no pressure at all. In-directly they support your allies for improved pressure which makes the necro an even bigger target. I see this more like venom share thief. Its very supportive and thats not to say that as a team the supportive pressure wont be useful alone though pretty pointless.

NB.: Thanksfully, you still cannot slot more than 3 traitlines so you won't have might/burn/vampiric at the same time. Also, my phrasing of F1 is kinda wrong, the idea is that the LF gain from necromancer's weapon skills is replaced by a damage proc that proc shroud 1 trait. While under F1 you no longer gain LF from weapon skills (I'd agree that it would be op otherwise).I still think its close to being questionable even with just 2 traitlines but then again the way you wrote out the F1 is very odd.

NB.(2): Lich form is crap through and through why would I want to give it all back? Anyway, from the beginning, if you remove lich form, you have to replace it by another skill that fit the spectral thematic. Let's say, that lich form is replaced by something close to (if not) grim specter. The auto attack is already the same as staff auto so I won't miss it. Like you said one of the skill is close to summon madness. This leave us with ripple of horror (mobility/fear which are fairly represented in this e-spec) and lich gaze (vulnerability). Objectively, everything is more or less there except for power damage, but tell me, in regard of pure dps, what's the dps of lich form taking into account it's short uptime? Lich form have a decent burst but a negligible dps, in the end this e-spec can probably increase more the necromancer's power damage than lich form can.

I dont think its crap if you are only looking at the core elite skills. :cold_sweat:Its one of the few power elites necormancer has an option to use and its ok for a core skill even with a grand idea of a espec i dont think thats a reason for the elite to be removed.

However if you are going to strip an elite skill for an e spec then you shoulder consider the base weight of each profession skill and curse. Orders need to be more in line with how guardians tomes were taken and brought back as these base powerful tools without having to trait stack too much on top of them to make them strong. This makes them easier to balance while loading them justly without overloading them.

I know you say the f1 procs shroud 1 traits / being in shroud. That seems a bit gimmicky to me or maybe its not worded very well. Like i said though this is going to lead to skill overload which is the same problem that Manifest Sand Shade and some of the shade skills went through. If you also in tend to not only proc shroud skill 1 traits but also shroud activations traits through this 1 skill that is.

I still suggest considering a shroud transform skill of some kind as of current a lot and i mean a lot.... of core traits dont have a way to activate with this proposal which is something I didn't consider yesterday but did pop into my head as i was playing last night. The number of traits is actually rather shocking. Spiteful spirit, Weakening shroud, Death perception, Unholy Martyr, Life from Death, Speed of Shadows, Plague Sending, Shrouded Removal, Deadly Strength, Unholy Sanctuary, Awaken the Pain, Foot in the Grave.

Maybe consider just making an f1 and f2 one for offensive action and the other for supportive action.I say this because your Orders are so very supportive in nature they really dont do anything outside of that because all of them are just self and party share effects why not house them all under 1 button. This could also allow you to make them stronger without having to trait stack on top of them too much with the only traits effecting them being the ones in your proposed line.

The f1 becomes your transform "Lich's Rebirth" or something (You transform into a lich like form not the current lich form, gain powerful barrier, can cast powerful offensive skills for a set number of cast.)The f1 (instant cast)

• has no set duration once activated,
• has a set number of skill uses but skills do not cost life force
• barrier decays as usual,
• has a 15 second cd on using your last skill charge or manually deactivating it
• The new skills gained proc shroud skill traits 1,2,&4
• Procs shroud activation traits
• cannot be used at the same time as the f2

The f2 becomes your orders "Lich's Orders" (Replaces your weapon skills with powerful command skills )The f2 (instant cast)

• can be swapped in and out of with almost no cd maybe 3 seconds
• skills within use life force per cast
• the skills will not proc shroud skill traits that work with skills 1,2,&4
• Will not proc shroud activation traits
• cannot be used at the same time as the f1

Sadly the way core necromancer is designed you cant completely strip it of some kind of shroud activation its a requirement for any future spec even if you don't want to use the traditional way shroud works with the 2nd health bar.

My only other note... no quick self rez from down trait on a long cool down or something 105's? Shouldn't a lich have a way to bring itself back to life thats like a staple demand of any lich or am I wrong about feeling that way.

@"ZDragon.3046" said:I dont think its crap if you are only looking at the core elite skills. :cold_sweat:Its one of the few power elites necormancer has an option to use and its ok for a core skill even with a grand idea of a espec i dont think thats a reason for the elite to be removed.

Well you're not wrong, however, I just hate the whole transformation thing and the visual is just awfull. Honnestly, there is way to many draw back to transformation skill for them to be truly usefull. Be it the short uptime (10 to 20 seconds every 2-3 minutes), the fact that you are locked out of your utility skills, the clumsiness of the movement... etc. Everything make transformation elite skills a pain in the arse to use.

However if you are going to strip an elite skill for an e spec then you shoulder consider the base weight of each profession skill and curse. Orders need to be more in line with how guardians tomes were taken and brought back as these base powerful tools without having to trait stack too much on top of them to make them strong. This makes them easier to balance while loading them justly without overloading them.

We ve been stripped of plague form for scourge, I don't see any issue ;) .

I know you say the f1 procs shroud 1 traits / being in shroud. That seems a bit gimmicky to me or maybe its not worded very well. Like i said though this is going to lead to skill overload which is the same problem that Manifest Sand Shade and some of the shade skills went through. If you also in tend to not only proc shroud skill 1 traits but also shroud activations traits through this 1 skill that is.

How should I explain, the idea is that when you use the F1, you buff yourself with shroud passive traits and make the weapon skills that should generate life force proc F1 traits. This mean that the traits are proc'ed by:

• dagger auto attack (which isn't necessarily a bad thing)
• Axe#2 (which isn't a very dangerous thing to add)
• scepter#3 (not a thing that should break the game)
• staff#1 (this might be welcome)
• focus#4 (heck this skill need all the help one can give)
• WH#5 (didn't thought about this one which might end up broken op)

I still suggest considering a shroud transform skill of some kind as of current a lot and i mean a lot.... of core traits dont have a way to activate with this proposal which is something I didn't consider yesterday but did pop into my head as i was playing last night. The number of traits is actually rather shocking. Spiteful spirit, Weakening shroud, Death perception, Unholy Martyr, Life from Death, Speed of Shadows, Plague Sending, Shrouded Removal, Deadly Strength, Unholy Sanctuary, Awaken the Pain, Foot in the Grave.

Maybe consider just making an f1 and f2 one for offensive action and the other for supportive action.I say this because your Orders are so very supportive in nature they really dont do anything outside of that because all of them are just self and party share effects why not house them all under 1 button. This could also allow you to make them stronger without having to trait stack on top of them too much with the only traits effecting them being the ones in your proposed line.

The f1 becomes your transform "Lich's Rebirth" or something (You transform into a lich like form not the current lich form, gain powerful barrier, can cast powerful offensive skills for a set number of cast.)The f1 (instant cast)

• has no set duration once activated,
• has a set number of skill uses but skills do not cost life force
• barrier decays as usual,
• has a 15 second cd on using your last skill charge or manually deactivating it
• The new skills gained proc shroud skill traits 1,2,&4
• Procs shroud activation traits
• cannot be used at the same time as the f2

The f2 becomes your orders "Lich's Orders" (Replaces your weapon skills with powerful command skills )The f2 (instant cast)

• can be swapped in and out of with almost no cd maybe 3 seconds
• skills within use life force per cast
• the skills will not proc shroud skill traits that work with skills 1,2,&4
• Will not proc shroud activation traits
• cannot be used at the same time as the f1

Sadly the way core necromancer is designed you cant completely strip it of some kind of shroud activation its a requirement for any future spec even if you don't want to use the traditional way shroud works with the 2nd health bar.

I'm against shroud transform, I firmly believe that most of the necromancers issue in the game come from the shroud design and mainly from the 2nd life bar. Scourge was a first step in the right direction because it parted with this design (well a failed step but still in the right direction). A shroud that's supposed to both defend and attack at the same time shouldn't exist. My suggestion is done with this in mind, on one side there is F1 which is the main offense setup and on the other side, there are the orders which are there to support and add a bit of survivability.

My only other note... no quick self rez from down trait on a long cool down or something 105's? Shouldn't a lich have a way to bring itself back to life thats like a staple demand of any lich or am I wrong about feeling that way.

You re not wrong, however PvPer/WvWer already hate the fact that you can be rezzed from downstate... They would hate a spec that can quickly rez itself to the bone. Especially if this spec is a necromancer spec. Come on, any thing on the necro that can inadertantly kill a PvPer is instantly asked to be nerfed. Look, I even saw a "nerf necro minion" thread on the PvP subforum and I eagerly wait for the day they will ask for a nerf on well of darkness so that I can have a good laugh.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:I dont think its crap if you are only looking at the core elite skills. :cold_sweat:Its one of the few power elites necormancer has an option to use and its ok for a core skill even with a grand idea of a espec i dont think thats a reason for the elite to be removed.

Ok yes the visuals are outdated the transform should at least be race / character specific. They could have done better but that kind of stuff cost money.The cooldown is too high yes i also agree with that.Elite trans forms its a standard to be locked out of your utility so i dont see that as much of a problem.The movement comes down to the model scaling if you are smaller becoming bigger will appear to make you move slower. Some of this also comes back to the outdated visuals but thats whole different statement. Ideally i can agree with most of the reasons as to why you hate it but cant see enough negatives that it should be removed.

However if you are going to strip an elite skill for an e spec then you shoulder consider the base weight of each profession skill and curse. Orders need to be more in line with how guardians tomes were taken and brought back as these base powerful tools without having to trait stack too much on top of them to make them strong. This makes them easier to balance while loading them justly without overloading them.

As a result i cant accept that as an reason unless you can show me where a dev directly pointed out the change to plague to plaguelands was a direct result of the upcoming scourge.

I know you say the f1 procs shroud 1 traits / being in shroud. That seems a bit gimmicky to me or maybe its not worded very well. Like i said though this is going to lead to skill overload which is the same problem that Manifest Sand Shade and some of the shade skills went through. If you also in tend to not only proc shroud skill 1 traits but also shroud activations traits through this 1 skill that is.

• dagger auto attack (which isn't necessarily a bad thing)
• Axe#2 (which isn't a very dangerous thing to add)
• scepter#3 (not a thing that should break the game)
• staff#1 (this might be welcome)
• focus#4 (heck this skill need all the help one can give)
• WH#5 (didn't thought about this one which might end up broken op)

Does this mean that secpter 3 could proc plague sending, weakening shroud, awaken the pain, spiteful spirt, and path of corruption all in one shot in addition to the damage boost.All of this? Ontop of scepters boons to conditions and torment application?I have to say it but if so thats ALOT for 1 skill and its very risky. In the event of a miss do you just get screwed on all the above if not does this means that the shroud effects can be proc'ed multiple times over the duration of the buff?Each hit of axe 2 applying dhuumfire and generating might from reapers might etc?

I still suggest considering a shroud transform skill of some kind as of current a lot and i mean a lot.... of core traits dont have a way to activate with this proposal which is something I didn't consider yesterday but did pop into my head as i was playing last night. The number of traits is actually rather shocking.

Spiteful spirit, Weakening shroud, Death perception, Unholy Martyr, Life from Death, Speed of Shadows, Plague Sending, Shrouded Removal, Deadly Strength, Unholy Sanctuary, Awaken the Pain, Foot in the Grave.

Maybe consider just making an f1 and f2 one for offensive action and the other for supportive action.I say this because your Orders are so very supportive in nature they really dont do anything outside of that because all of them are just self and party share effects why not house them all under 1 button. This could also allow you to make them stronger without having to trait stack on top of them too much with the only traits effecting them being the ones in your proposed line.

The f1 becomes your transform

"Lich's Rebirth"

or something (You transform into a lich like form

not the current lich form

, gain powerful barrier, can cast powerful offensive skills for a set number of cast.)

The f1 (instant cast)

• has no set duration once activated,
• has a set number of skill uses but skills do not cost life force
• barrier decays as usual,
• has a 15 second cd on using your last skill charge or manually deactivating it
• The new skills gained proc shroud skill traits 1,2,&4
• Procs shroud activation traits
• cannot be used at the same time as the f2

The f2 becomes your orders

"Lich's Orders"

(Replaces your weapon skills with powerful command skills )

The f2 (instant cast)

• can be swapped in and out of with almost no cd maybe 3 seconds
• skills within use life force per cast
• the skills will not proc shroud skill traits that work with skills 1,2,&4
• Will not proc shroud activation traits
• cannot be used at the same time as the f1

Sadly the way core necromancer is designed you cant completely strip it of some kind of shroud activation its a requirement for any future spec even if you don't want to use the traditional way shroud works with the 2nd health bar.

Even without the use of a 2nd life bar though? I thought i pointed that out somewhere maybe i didnt. There are ways to integrate minor shroud like transforms without using a 2nd life bar. Which removes the restrictions you face with those problems that core and reaper both have. IF we look at holosmith it does not have those problems but ideally its holo mode is the same thing as using a shroud theoretically.

As odd as it is i dont like the idea of necro without some sort of minor shroud thematically it just does a thing for me. I even think scourge's desert shroud alone is cool by itself but I would even attempt to play holosmith before i play a necro spec without any kind of shroud / transform regardless if that said shroud uses a 2nd health bar or not. Not to mention its an easy way to cleanly integrate alot of core traits.I dont think scourge failed from having the desert shroud skill, it failed form having some of the other f skills be way too over loaded at a base then having tons of core traits stacked ontop of them. Which is resulting in core traits being culled when only specifically used with scourge.

My only other note... no quick self rez from down trait on a long cool down or something 105's? Shouldn't a lich have a way to bring itself back to life thats like a staple demand of any lich or am I wrong about feeling that way.

Does this mean that secpter 3 could proc plague sending, weakening shroud, awaken the pain, spiteful spirt, and path of corruption all in one shot in addition to the damage boost.

Absolutely... not! When you use F1 you enter shroud which proc associated effect. When you use a weapon skill that grant LF you proc shroud#1 traits. And that's all. So all in all, you can remove weakening shroud, spitefull spirit, awaken the pain and path of corruption from the list. Using F1 will proc plague sending allowing 2 skill that would otherwise grant life force to each send back a condition...

If you think about it, F1 is quite similar to a normal shroud with 10 second CD, it just don't give you a 2nd health bar and new skills, it just affect your weapon skills that generate LF.

I dont think scourge failed from having the desert shroud skill, it failed form having some of the other f skills be way too over loaded at a base then having tons of core traits stacked ontop of them. Which is resulting in core traits being culled when only specifically used with scourge.

I think scourge's most glaring issue is the fact that F skills proc manifest sand shade. What I suggest is a lot more tame than scourge grant. contrary to scourge most weapon skills that generate life force affect few foes if not a single one.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

Does this mean that secpter 3 could proc plague sending, weakening shroud, awaken the pain, spiteful spirt, and path of corruption all in one shot in addition to the damage boost.

Ok explained that way it makes more sense to me.Just please dont let it go without some kind of cool visuals lmfao

I dont think scourge failed from having the desert shroud skill, it failed form having some of the other f skills be way too over loaded at a base then having tons of core traits stacked ontop of them. Which is resulting in core traits being culled when only specifically used with scourge.

I feel like you went too tame to be honest. f2-f5 are pure supportive style skills which don't do damage or drop aoe zones on the ground. The effects they provide imo especially to have cds, cast times, & life force cost need to be considerable stronger. Its a lot more tame than scourge but it does lack the pressure that the shades give scourge. Scourge's offense is still apart of its defense so to speak.