PvE balance without killing PvP/WvW.

As much as I would love to see a complete rework of necromancer's mechanisms, I'm aware that we can't expect much in this area. Thought, simple things can be done in the right direction.

1- Giving bosses perma vigor.One of the worst aspect of the necromancer is that he need to rely on boon corruption to increase it's dps and, while it's very effective in PvP/WvW, in PvE mobs and especially bosses rarely gain boons and when they do, these boons are often corrupted into conditions that are countered by the breakbar, leaving the necromancer with virtually no dps increase.

A very simple way to buff the necromancer's dps in PvE would thus be to have bosses gain 2s of vigor every seconds. A harmless change that would give some dps to the underperforming necromancer's tools in PvE.

2- Death magic traitline changes.I'm pretty sure most will agree that this traitline is in dire need of "changes". I think this traitline can host changes that would grant a bit of synergy with other professions like:

• Add to current effect of Putrid defense: Auras on you also poison foes for 2 seconds when their effect trigger.
• Change soul comprehension to: Auras on you also grant you 1% life force when they trigger.
• Beyond the veil changed to: When exiting the shroud, executing a leap finisher. Successfully executing a leap finisher in a combo field grant you protection (3 seconds).

3 minute changes that won't really effect the game but would give value to professions that grant aura as support and push the necromancer into a more "group friendly" light.

3- Soul reaping/curse traitline changes.This might end up as the most impopular change but in essence, the idea is to get rid of dhuumfire as it currently is and compensate for both power and condition damage. Some players might argue that shroud need burn on shrd1 but I don't think that such trait is healthy for the necromancer.

• Dhuumfire changed to: Gain fire shield (4s) when entering shroud. Deal 10-15% more damage on burning foes.
• Add to Barbed precision current effects: 100% chance to trigger on critical hit while in shroud.

2 important changes to push both power and condi dps builds close to be in a good place in PvE with almost no impact on PvP/WvW.

4- Reaper.

• Reaper's onslaught fonctionnality change to: Might stacks now also grant ferocity (10 ferocity/might stack)
• Chilling Nova: ICD reduced to 4 seconds (PvE only)

In the grand scheme of things, outside of reaper's onslaught none of those changes would have great impact on PvP/WvW, however I firmly believe, that this would be more than enough for the necromancer (core/reaper and scourge) to finally shine in PvE and increase the necromancer's overall compatibility with other professions.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:As much as I would love to see a complete rework of necromancer's mechanisms, I'm aware that we can't expect much in this area. Thought, simple things can be done in the right direction.

1- Giving bosses perma vigor.One of the worst aspect of the necromancer is that he need to rely on boon corruption to increase it's dps and, while it's very effective in PvP/WvW, in PvE mobs and especially bosses rarely gain boons and when they do, these boons are often corrupted into conditions that are countered by the breakbar, leaving the necromancer with virtually no dps increase.

A very simple way to buff the necromancer's dps in PvE would thus be to have bosses gain 2s of vigor every seconds. A harmless change that would give some dps to the underperforming necromancer's tools in PvE.

2- Death magic traitline changes.I'm pretty sure most will agree that this traitline is in dire need of "changes". I think this traitline can host changes that would grant a bit of synergy with other professions like:

• Add to current effect of Putrid defense: Auras on you also poison foes for 2 seconds when their effect trigger.
• Change soul comprehension to: Auras on you also grant you 1% life force when they trigger.
• Beyond the veil changed to: When exiting the shroud, executing a leap finisher. Successfully executing a leap finisher in a combo field grant you protection (3 seconds).

3 minute changes that won't really effect the game but would give value to professions that grant aura as support and push the necromancer into a more "group friendly" light.

3- Soul reaping/curse traitline changes.This might end up as the most impopular change but in essence, the idea is to get rid of dhuumfire as it currently is and compensate for both power and condition damage. Some players might argue that shroud need burn on shrd1 but I don't think that such trait is healthy for the necromancer.

• Dhuumfire changed to: Gain fire shield (4s) when entering shroud. Deal 10-15% more damage on burning foes.
• Add to Barbed precision current effects: 100% chance to trigger on critical hit while in shroud.

2 important changes to push both power and condi dps builds close to be in a good place in PvE with almost no impact on PvP/WvW.

4- Reaper.

• Reaper's onslaught fonctionnality change to: Might stacks now also grant ferocity (10 ferocity/might stack)
• Chilling Nova: ICD reduced to 4 seconds (PvE only)

In the grand scheme of things, outside of reaper's onslaught none of those changes would have great impact on PvP/WvW, however I firmly believe, that this would be more than enough for the necromancer (core/reaper and scourge) to finally shine in PvE and increase the necromancer's overall compatibility with other professions.

Fun ideas.

But impossible since Arenanet does not have screens to separate PvP and PvE and WvW.If they change a skill, it affects over all areas.... which is stupid.

Also, other classes from what i know, and even weapon sigils can remove boons...... so... even if you give the boss a vigor (or what ever), it could still be removed the second it gets applied by another class.... still leaving the necro behind then.

But you do not need to give bosses boons in order to buff necro dmg PvE.Just have the bosses vulnerable to death magic... (or what ever you want to call necro dmg).This solves the problem better, as it is class personal.And it is not hard to do.1: Necro spells dmg = death magic.2: all npcs are extra vulnerable to death magic by x%.3: result = necro deal x% more dmg in PvE, with no imbalance extra effect on PvP or WvW.

Just a quick idea.

Well, granted that vigor convert into 2 bleed stack for 8 seconds, I'm pretty sure that an optimized group would make sure to favor a necromancer for boon ripping instead of wasting this opportunity. The goal isn't to make necromancer more valuable in a very casual and clueless group that don't know what they do, the goal is to give something valuable to the necromancer for him to work optimally. In our case, vigor would do virtually nothing to the boss and thus wouldn't really have a need for boon ripping, yet in an optimized group setting you'd value this opportunity to the point of changing the mesmer main hand weapon for example.

All the change that I propose can easily be implemented in the game as it is. On the other hand, I'm affraid that the change you propose involve something that doesn't exist in the game.

The game have 2 kind of damage: Power and condition. There is no such thing as "death magic" damage or "fire magic" damage... No kind of damage belong to a specific profession or "magic attunment". This used to exist in GW but never made it in GW2. The system is very simple:

• Power damages depend on: power/precision and ferocity.
• Condition damages depend on: condition damage/expertise and precision (for procs).

Just understand that this idea of making the bosses vulnerable to death magic is totally out of place in GW2.

Mesmer sword removes boons on autoattack.Well played.So mesmers would have to stop autoattacking.The profession that is in basically every group.

Dont get me wrong, i like so many ideas, but i am starting to lose hope

I think you are most likely overthinking with a necro's boonrip abilities.

Necro is actually not that great at consistent boonrip without some pretty major sacrifices in trait choices. What necro is good at is stripping in a bulk. If you look at a necro's usual skill set. Path of Corruption and whichever trait that corrupt on shade placement(give up on burning on punishment skills) is the most consistent boonrip. Everything else such as scepter 3, corrupt boon, well of corruption, Scourge elite etc all strip a large quantity of boons but with a relatively high cd especially compared to classes like spellbreaker or revs. So having perma boon on a boss will increase the damage but with a rather low amount because you will not be able to consistently strip it every 2 seconds without sacrificing dps traits/skills.

I think a simpler answer can be found without affect PvP or WvW. For example buff dagger off hand so is worthy of a swap compared to torch. Or perhaps increase the duration of torment stacks on Shroud in PvE only since they do split numbers. Maybe even buff poison cloud by a bit so it can be more of a damage skill than an utility one. There really doesn't need to be a huge buff on Scourge damage as is only off by around 10-15% from average.

As for the reaper buffs, that really doesn't solve the issue with gravedigger spam yet but is more of a bandaid fix I think.

@Aetatis.5418 said:Mesmer sword removes boons on autoattack.Well played.So mesmers would have to stop autoattacking.The profession that is in basically every group.

Well it's not like mesmer don't have scepter. Beside, maybe, just maybe, anet could do the same thing to mesmer sword auto attack that they did to necromancer's scepter auto attack. But making mesmer less desirable as a tank isn't necessarily a bad thing either since they now have a decent dps.

@"Warscythes.9307" said:I think you are most likely overthinking with a necro's boonrip abilities.

Necro is actually not that great at consistent boonrip without some pretty major sacrifices in trait choices. What necro is good at is stripping in a bulk. If you look at a necro's usual skill set. Path of Corruption and whichever trait that corrupt on shade placement(give up on burning on punishment skills) is the most consistent boonrip. Everything else such as scepter 3, corrupt boon, well of corruption, Scourge elite etc all strip a large quantity of boons but with a relatively high cd especially compared to classes like spellbreaker or revs. So having perma boon on a boss will increase the damage but with a rather low amount because you will not be able to consistently strip it every 2 seconds without sacrificing dps traits/skills.

I think a simpler answer can be found without affect PvP or WvW. For example buff dagger off hand so is worthy of a swap compared to torch. Or perhaps increase the duration of torment stacks on Shroud in PvE only since they do split numbers. Maybe even buff poison cloud by a bit so it can be more of a damage skill than an utility one. There really doesn't need to be a huge buff on Scourge damage as is only off by around 10-15% from average.

As for the reaper buffs, that really doesn't solve the issue with gravedigger spam yet but is more of a bandaid fix I think.

I think scourge benefit a lot from the change I suggest, especially from the changes linked to dhuumfire. As for sadistic searing, with vigor available to corrupt, I believe that the result would be quite even. Sadistic searing ended up being more a "burst" trait and unending corruption being more a sustain damage trait.

As for abilities that corrupt... excuse me but, are you complaining that the necromancer would have to make choices? You'll obviously still play scepter without ever changing weapon, however, you'd gain 2 bleed stack for around 12 seconds every 7-8 seconds so roughly an increase of 3 bleed stacks dps for this skill alone without any need for investment. The punishment skill that you need to use for sadistic searing would have something to corrupt and thus gain a net increase of dps in the form of around 12 second of torment per boon corrupted which would make ghastly breach deal a lot more damage than it does already. Well of corruption could also become an option in your utility skill... etc. The skill corrupt boon could become a viable option.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Aetatis.5418 said:Mesmer sword removes boons on autoattack.Well played.So mesmers would have to stop autoattacking.The profession that is in basically every group.

@"Warscythes.9307" said:I think you are most likely overthinking with a necro's boonrip abilities.

Necro is actually not that great at consistent boonrip without some pretty major sacrifices in trait choices. What necro is good at is stripping in a bulk. If you look at a necro's usual skill set. Path of Corruption and whichever trait that corrupt on shade placement(give up on burning on punishment skills) is the most consistent boonrip. Everything else such as scepter 3, corrupt boon, well of corruption, Scourge elite etc all strip a large quantity of boons but with a relatively high cd especially compared to classes like spellbreaker or revs. So having perma boon on a boss will increase the damage but with a rather low amount because you will not be able to consistently strip it every 2 seconds without sacrificing dps traits/skills.

I think a simpler answer can be found without affect PvP or WvW. For example buff dagger off hand so is worthy of a swap compared to torch. Or perhaps increase the duration of torment stacks on Shroud in PvE only since they do split numbers. Maybe even buff poison cloud by a bit so it can be more of a damage skill than an utility one. There really doesn't need to be a huge buff on Scourge damage as is only off by around 10-15% from average.

As for the reaper buffs, that really doesn't solve the issue with gravedigger spam yet but is more of a bandaid fix I think.

I am not going to worry too much about numbers right now rather mostly but mechanics. The thing with PvE is that there is no such thing as burst trait or sustain damage trait especially on a condition build. It will just come down to whichever does more damage. So if unending corruption ends up being better then people will take it 100% of the time and now sadistic searing is pointless. Vice versa if the opposite happens.

Same issue with skills. There's no such thing as making choices if you want to add boons to literally every boss. I am just going to take whichever skill does the most damage at the end. Choices happens when bosses have different mechanics to them. For example I sometimes take sand swell on SH for the wall mechanic, or CPC for sloth for projectile hate, or wurm for Dhuum kiting etc etc. Adding boons every boss just means I will re-examine my skills and figure out which does the most damage and then use them every single encounter. If ghastly breach now does more damage than plaguelands then plaguelands is gone forever etc etc.

The biggest issue I think is still that this is way too hamfisted. Not to mention it directly create this environment where a noticeable amount of your dps is now controlled by your teammates not accidentally rip it themselves. The primary objectile of boonrip should be that the bosses no longer have these boons so it doesn't cleave the team in 2 hits, not just have it exist as a dps bump for necros. In which case why not just straight up buff the damage of necros? There are countless ways to just tune up numbers without affecting PvP/WvW.

That being said I think the death magic and SR looks interesting but I am unsure exactly how well is going to work without trying it out so I just don't comment on it.

Dhuumfire is essential for any condi build. If you take Burning off of it, you need to make it baseline to Core and Reaper shroud to compensate.

Actually, that's a good idea, would allow condi to build without soul reaping if we wanted.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:As much as I would love to see a complete rework of necromancer's mechanisms, I'm aware that we can't expect much in this area. Thought, simple things can be done in the right direction.

1- Giving bosses perma vigor.One of the worst aspect of the necromancer is that he need to rely on boon corruption to increase it's dps and, while it's very effective in PvP/WvW, in PvE mobs and especially bosses rarely gain boons and when they do, these boons are often corrupted into conditions that are countered by the breakbar, leaving the necromancer with virtually no dps increase.

A very simple way to buff the necromancer's dps in PvE would thus be to have bosses gain 2s of vigor every seconds. A harmless change that would give some dps to the underperforming necromancer's tools in PvE.

2- Death magic traitline changes.I'm pretty sure most will agree that this traitline is in dire need of "changes". I think this traitline can host changes that would grant a bit of synergy with other professions like:

• Add to current effect of Putrid defense: Auras on you also poison foes for 2 seconds when their effect trigger.
• Change soul comprehension to: Auras on you also grant you 1% life force when they trigger.
• Beyond the veil changed to: When exiting the shroud, executing a leap finisher. Successfully executing a leap finisher in a combo field grant you protection (3 seconds).

3 minute changes that won't really effect the game but would give value to professions that grant aura as support and push the necromancer into a more "group friendly" light.

3- Soul reaping/curse traitline changes.This might end up as the most impopular change but in essence, the idea is to get rid of dhuumfire as it currently is and compensate for both power and condition damage. Some players might argue that shroud need burn on shrd1 but I don't think that such trait is healthy for the necromancer.

• Dhuumfire changed to: Gain fire shield (4s) when entering shroud. Deal 10-15% more damage on burning foes.
• Add to Barbed precision current effects: 100% chance to trigger on critical hit while in shroud.

2 important changes to push both power and condi dps builds close to be in a good place in PvE with almost no impact on PvP/WvW.

4- Reaper.

• Reaper's onslaught fonctionnality change to: Might stacks now also grant ferocity (10 ferocity/might stack)
• Chilling Nova: ICD reduced to 4 seconds (PvE only)

In the grand scheme of things, outside of reaper's onslaught none of those changes would have great impact on PvP/WvW, however I firmly believe, that this would be more than enough for the necromancer (core/reaper and scourge) to finally shine in PvE and increase the necromancer's overall compatibility with other professions.

Love the Dhuumfire change, that works perfectly and gives the class something it really is missing % Mods. Reapers onslaught is also a nice change.

@"Warscythes.9307" said:

I am not going to worry too much about numbers right now rather mostly but mechanics. The thing with PvE is that there is no such thing as burst trait or sustain damage trait especially on a condition build. It will just come down to whichever does more damage. So if unending corruption ends up being better then people will take it 100% of the time and now sadistic searing is pointless. Vice versa if the opposite happens.

Same issue with skills. There's no such thing as making choices if you want to add boons to literally every boss. I am just going to take whichever skill does the most damage at the end. Choices happens when bosses have different mechanics to them. For example I sometimes take sand swell on SH for the wall mechanic, or CPC for sloth for projectile hate, or wurm for Dhuum kiting etc etc. Adding boons every boss just means I will re-examine my skills and figure out which does the most damage and then use them every single encounter. If ghastly breach now does more damage than plaguelands then plaguelands is gone forever etc etc.

The biggest issue I think is still that this is way too hamfisted. Not to mention it directly create this environment where a noticeable amount of your dps is now controlled by your teammates not accidentally rip it themselves. The primary objectile of boonrip should be that the bosses no longer have these boons so it doesn't cleave the team in 2 hits, not just have it exist as a dps bump for necros. In which case why not just straight up buff the damage of necros? There are countless ways to just tune up numbers without affecting PvP/WvW.

That being said I think the death magic and SR looks interesting but I am unsure exactly how well is going to work without trying it out so I just don't comment on it.

You are right for PvE, in the sense that you'll always end up using the build that deal the most damage over time. Where you are wrong is that the game isn't only 1 gamemode. In PvP or even WvW you'll end up having to chose between sadistic searing and unending corruption and that's what's important. Sadistic searing would end up the "burst" trait there while unending corruption would keep it's value as "utility".

The whole idea is to make it so boon corruption do it's job and, above all, what it is accounted for in PvE. Anet clearly see boon corruption as a necromancer's dps potential, if the necromancer is in an environment where he don't have proper boons to corrupt in order to generate this dps potential then the necromancer is bound to underperform. Which is the case in PvE. And as long as this will be the case the necromancer's player community is bound to complain about that they are bottom of the barrel in PvE.

As for bosses, they generally do not depend on boons. In fact, the idea even favor the necromancer because necromancer's boon corruption abilities usually rip more than 1 boon at a time which mean that the necromancer might even also be taken to rip off mechanic boons that would be covered up by vigor.

The suggestions for DM and SR are mainly there to give some synergy with other professions to the necromancer. And I believe that the dhuumfire change is necessary in order to reduce damage imbalance. In short the burn on shrd1 is replaced by a bleed on all critical hit while in shrd, this should compel players to gear up a bit more glassy for dps builds. As for the aura, this should open up death magic for more "durability" in a fight. (thought, I'd like to switch putrid defense and the first minor, because a toughness bonus should be chosen, not forced by a traitline.)

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Warscythes.9307" said:

I am not going to worry too much about numbers right now rather mostly but mechanics. The thing with PvE is that there is no such thing as burst trait or sustain damage trait especially on a condition build. It will just come down to whichever does more damage. So if unending corruption ends up being better then people will take it 100% of the time and now sadistic searing is pointless. Vice versa if the opposite happens.

Same issue with skills. There's no such thing as making choices if you want to add boons to literally every boss. I am just going to take whichever skill does the most damage at the end. Choices happens when bosses have different mechanics to them. For example I sometimes take sand swell on SH for the wall mechanic, or CPC for sloth for projectile hate, or wurm for Dhuum kiting etc etc. Adding boons every boss just means I will re-examine my skills and figure out which does the most damage and then use them every single encounter. If ghastly breach now does more damage than plaguelands then plaguelands is gone forever etc etc.

The biggest issue I think is still that this is way too hamfisted. Not to mention it directly create this environment where a noticeable amount of your dps is now controlled by your teammates not accidentally rip it themselves. The primary objectile of boonrip should be that the bosses no longer have these boons so it doesn't cleave the team in 2 hits, not just have it exist as a dps bump for necros. In which case why not just straight up buff the damage of necros? There are countless ways to just tune up numbers without affecting PvP/WvW.

That being said I think the death magic and SR looks interesting but I am unsure exactly how well is going to work without trying it out so I just don't comment on it.

Considering the topic at hand is talking about just PvE. I am not sure why you are talking about PvP/WvW. The boon change would not affect PvP or WvW as you stated in your topic that you are going for PvE balance without killing PvP/WvW. However I am glad you agree PvE would just be picking whichever one does the most damage. I am not against variety, I just don't think it will create more choice in this instance.

I think our biggest disagreement is that you think Anet see boon corruption as a necromancer's dps potential while I do not see it at all. I believe Anet see boon corruption simply just as an extra bonus for necro in PvE, nothing more nothing less. I can somewhat see why you might think that way but I do not think that is the case here. I believe the right way to move forward is to simply buff the necromancer's damage and just have the corruption damage be a bonus; because that is exactly what it is.

I hope that we can at least agree that just adding random boons on bosses for the purpose of necro damage only is rather hamfisted? Is much simpler to just buff the damage instead of depending on this sort of unreliability.

I don't want to think too much about DM or Dhuumfire right now because death magic is a big pain in the butt to think about. Dhuumfire change is more for PvP/WvW which I don't think I am that experienced to answer. So I keep my opinions to myself on that one.