"Suffer!" - Condition Cleanse Skill Countered By Conditions?

So, when looking at reaper shouts, one of the most important mechanics of the shout is, well, landing the hit. That becomes a little questionable as one examines a solid few of the shouts, specifically Suffer, the shout oriented around transferring conditions to nearby enemies. This skill can become completely null if it doesn't hit a single enemy, resulting in nothing except a wasted utility slot. Now, of course no one's gonna be throwing it out at random, but what concerns me is how blindness interacts with it. When viewing transfers, such as revenant's condition transfers from corruption traitline, or plague signet's transfer, or the condition transfer staff mark, the consistent theme is that they're immune to blindness. Why is such an important quality of life mechanic not carried over to Suffer? Suffer relies near completely on hitting an enemy for any effect, and if it only hits one, you only transfer one condition. It doesn't copy the 5 conditions transferred to all enemies affected: it only applies one of the five conditions to each enemy. Why is suffer, a utility skill at the very least, countered by blind as a transfer ability? It's supposed to be a counterplay to conditions, but it's countered by a single condition in its entirety? The complete nullification of suffer due to well placed blindness has been a huge reason why it's nowhere near as popular of an option as other condition management skills, and I believe it wouldn't become overpowered in any sense if it were to ignore blindness. Hell, if all the shouts ignored blindness I wouldn't be concerned in the slightest, but for now I'm thinking small and readily applicable. It only makes sense for suffer to ignore blindness. What do y'all think?

tl;dr make suffer ignore blindness like plague signet, putrid mark, etc.

It would be a QoL change, but seriously I don't think it's a big deal. You can get rid of blindness via an autoattack and then cast the cleanse. And even if the cast fails the cooldown is so low that after your next shroud usage the skill is off cooldown again - it's a forgiving utility skill.

Suffer is not only a condi cleanse. Cleansing conditions is one of the many effects this skill grants. And this may be the reason why anet does not treat it like other transfers.

Pretty much every competitive build I run at the moment uses suffer (+ SA and SW - these 3 utility skills outshine everything else in terms of flexibility and utility in the current state of balance). It's good to set up a burst, to kite, to inflict cover conditions... and to cleanse conditions.

Suffer could even become too strong if it would transfer blindness first or ignore it. It is instant cast and has some very annoying effects for the target. If it ignores blindness, then it has basically no counters within its 600 range.

I know what you mean about Suffer failing a transfer but think that is also an intended part of the design: Reaper dps and sustain drops in 1v1. The specialization is really meant for melee 1vM and completely fixed core Necro's lack of cleave.

With that said, ignoring blind might be ok but always remember anything less than 5 targets is an intended nerf.

Reaper shouts scale up with the number of enemies they contact. This AoE cleave is the theme around which all of Reaper was designed.

Reaper absolutely tears through piles of trash mobs in PvE and sets any yet alive up for allies to finish, as it was intended, with its cleave and chill.

Rather than worry over shouts' abilities in 1v1, I worry over Core's 1v1. Core power builds should be better than they are.

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Rather than worry over shouts' abilities in 1v1, I worry over Core's 1v1. Core power builds should be better than they are.

This

Still though... gotta wish at least the shout trait was better the hp leech is just kind a pointless even in the base case situations of hitting all 5 targets its effect is minimal. Would have much preferred lf on hit or lesser "nothing can save you" on hitting a blocking foe to really drive home reapers lethal slasher theme.

Tbh anet kind of needs to let go of some of their old core launch day values thats keeping them aggressively balancing necro meanwhile letting others run around unchecked. It is a tad bit frustrating.

Should be no reason why core necro is so behind but people will argue its in a ok spot.People only say core its in a ok spot because its played a bit more now but not because anything changed to make it better.Its only played a bit more because scourge is not viable without a pre-made group to protect it and have moved on to core condi cause its the only other condi boon hate option.

@ZDragon.3046 said:Should be no reason why core necro is so behind but people will argue its in a ok spot.People only say core its in a ok spot because its played a bit more now but not because anything changed to make it better.Its only played a bit more because scourge is not viable without a pre-made group to protect it and have moved on to core condi cause its the only other condi boon hate option.

Now, hate me all you want for saying this, but I do believe core necromancer is in an at the very least an okay spot. Okay is in my opinion the general consensus, and slightly strong is debateable but only in some LF generation aspects. Anyway, back to slightly less than okay spot, core necromancer has some rather powerful abilities and can arguably outperform scourge, and it lies at the capabilities of unholy martyr, which is gained when taking core because you're no longer obligated to take transfusion for self sustain and can take curses alongside it for some good pressure, allowing you to consider more selfish traits. It's true, nothing REALLY changed, but when scourge fell out of style and core necro was taken up again and they started using blood alongside the old terrormancer style, unholy martyr became a very well designed sustained combat passive, allowing necromancers to now stand a chance against sc/p condi mirages and thieves alike (largely due to the reveal of DS5 on the thief/PU core mesmer counterplay). My only grievance against core necromancer as is is largely the fact foot in the grave doesn't apply stability or at the very least stunbreak on leaving shroud, or that shroud itself has no baseline stunbreaks in its bar, which allows other classes to play with necros like a hacky sack in shroud. If one REALLY wants to argue that necromancer is in a bad spot, that largely lies at the feet of dependency on speed runes due to sheer lack of mobility, but otherwise necromancer definitely has an at least somewhat viable kit. I find myself very capable when I play necromancer, unless its against heralds or rangers (class counters) or having a tedious fight against warriors (because FGJ/magebane tether are way too strong might generation when might heals and grants endurance back). Way I see it, core necromancer could definitely use more skills akin to spectral ring and possibly projectile destroy fields as weapon skills (which I personally feel could be given as changes to staff on necromancer, adding more ward-like abilities and projectile destroys to make it a true defensive weapon at the cost of losing marks), but otherwise they're at the very least in a decent spot. I feel like with core blood terrormancer, I'm more capable as a duelist and self sustaining fighter than I've been in a long while.

@FalsePromises.6398 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Should be no reason why core necro is so behind but people will argue its in a ok spot.People only say core its in a ok spot because its played a bit more now but not because anything changed to make it better.Its only played a bit more because scourge is not viable without a pre-made group to protect it and have moved on to core condi cause its the only other condi boon hate option.

If you ask me i kind of dont agree but i can kind of understand part of what you are coming from..Core necromancer would be in a ok spot if everyone else was at that same level but they are not. Realistically almost every other profession and their elites have not been aggressively balanced to the aspect that necromancer has been which is why even after all these years it still has not widened its boon table via elites or QoL changes, has no way of endurance restoration, no invulns, no true blocks, and its mobility is still super limited. Anet has kept their core value from launch day with how they balance the necromancer and simply not really added much to it. ITs a concept that would work well if other professions were not boosted with power creep but so long as others are boosted it will always be behind because in their eyes it must to be a damage soaker and be slow. Anet has a bad habit of not letting go of old values that could ideally make the game far better which is why it took them 7 years to do game mode skill splits.

To speak up on Unholy.Unholy M. is good if you are alone and used under selfish applications yes because you remove the risk and only gain the reward. The moment you go into combat with allies it can quickly become a hinderance depending on what you pull. If the skill was built to be selfish only then i might agree its a powerful tool but its meant to be the supportive trait that bring some benefit to the necromancer (a risk for reward style support trait). The issue is that damage is off the wall right now and you would never want to really use this in a team fight application. Should you pull burn stacks while you already have burn stacks rip..... etc is just one example. Its not well designed because people use it for selfish reasons when its really meant to be a supportive tool that also streamlines into the xfering conditions kinda deal but conditions and damage is too nuts and too fast right now for this to really be practical so in a way the trait is more used for an entirely different reason than what it is designed. Also the fact that supportive traitlines work as means for better self sustain than the self sustain traitlines IS A MASSIVE ISSUE. This happens across almost every profession. IF you need more sustain you dont take your own personal defensive line you take the supportive line and use it selfishly. I wont go too far into that though thats another topic that i personally think anet should address in the future.

I wont disagree that necromancer at its core has a few good tools and even a few great ones but i wouldnt really consider it in a good place considering it was not used much until anet obliterated scourge with the wvw shade change. ITs used because there are no other viable options necromancer condi/boon hate that can fill that role when you play solo. Scourge requires you to be in a premade basically to work in spvp right now cause its risk far out-scales its reward.

TLDR VersionUnholy is kind of a solo gimmick only and can fall off hard in team fight situations though (especially if your team is taking heavy condi application.)Necro would be really in a ok spot if everyone else was dropped back a bit from power-creep and just mechanical superiority.

^Core Necro still has many of the issues that made the profession undesirable in PvE.

• Death Magic is 100% selfish, yet stacks toughness as if Necro could perform a tank role. No one, not even the Necro, benefits from DM for the opportunity cost of taking it save casual MMs.
• Dps, especially power dps, is abysmal and, while Epidemic is very powerfull versus boss add's, Epi was nerfed hard to bring it in line for elites and competitive game modes. Condi dps is 100% scepter AA.
• Core Necro's very limited cleave dps suffers almost everywhere not 1v1 competitive.

@Anchoku.8142 said:I know what you mean about Suffer failing a transfer but think that is also an intended part of the design: Reaper dps and sustain drops in 1v1. The specialization is really meant for melee 1vM and completely fixed core Necro's lack of cleave.

With that said, ignoring blind might be ok but always remember anything less than 5 targets is an intended nerf.

Reaper shouts scale up with the number of enemies they contact. This AoE cleave is the theme around which all of Reaper was designed.

Reaper absolutely tears through piles of trash mobs in PvE and sets any yet alive up for allies to finish, as it was intended, with its cleave and chill.

Rather than worry over shouts' abilities in 1v1, I worry over Core's 1v1. Core power builds should be better than they are.

That's a certainly interesting take on reaper, very insightful. However, my issue with that is that the class as a whole doesn't feel like it scales benefits enough when it has many nearby targets. In PvP, you end up scaling up... let's see. YAAW grants 10 might instead of 5. Suffer cleanses 5 conditions instead of 1, which is notable, but doesn't truly outshine other cleanse utilities. YSIM grants 20% LF instead of 5%, but does so at a great cost to raw healing values, cleanses, and other gimmicks offered by core heal skills. NCSY grants a notable increase in the unblockable duration granted, and that's why I enjoy it, it's just too bad it doesn't do much in terms of further utilizing that unblockable. Rise grants notably more minions, but still the same static damage reduction effect over the same duration, and the minions themselves don't do much in terms of damage, so it's not like there's strong incentive to save it for group environments aside from just having a... more durable damage reduction? CTTB grants stability, good on that, but it's still more an offensive effect, since the stun outshines any real personal benefits granted, since classes can easily boonrip 1 boon. I do understand these have offensive effects and are oriented so, but I feel like they don't provide enough personal benefit from landing them nor do they have scaling effects from more nearby targets. Same goes for nearly everything in reaper: they're oriented around benefiting from hitting more targets, but don't have strong enough personal benefits to outweigh the lack of scaling offensive benefits of having more targets. They're static and subpar for the most part offensively, weak personal benefit in 1v1, and at best substantial benefits in wide scale environments. I'd feel more at peace with reaper shouts being as they are if the shout trait was changed to instead, say, grant a stacking 1-2% damage buff per target hit by shout that lasts 30s or 1m or so, like warrior signet benefits except stacking higher, maybe 10-25 stacks max, so as to TRULY prove reaper as a cleaving scaling damage specialization. Otherwise, it just feels like any other class that has cleave but with personal benefits oriented around scaling target-number based effects, if that makes sense. Reaper, I feel, only excels in PvE because of its sheer ability to truly take advantage of its selfish benefits from spite and soul reaping lines due to finally having cleave from reaper shroud and greatsword. Otherwise, it feels like it lacks. Remove spite or soul reaping benefits and reaper greatly drops damage-wise, and I know it's unfair to say something's weak if you remove it's core traitlines, but I feel like it's justified when looking at the reaper spec alone, seeing as specs like firebrand, weaver, and soulbeast seem to be fully substantial on their own.