darren.1064

First they bang bang me from 1500 distance. I go chase. They disappear in stealth. Then i hear sound, BOOOOOOM i got hit from 10k Death Judgement. They are again completely different spot than last time. I go chase again, they dodge and disappear in stealth. BOOOOOOOOM, again 10k dmg. I manage stun them and they shadowstep 1200 range away and dodge stealth. Just example why class is completely broken and needs emergency nerf. I don't know that it needs an emergency nerf, but this ability to stealth at will combined with insane mobility is simply broken. You can nerf damage down to 1 and make the class completely irrelevant, but the fact is stealth should not work this way and certainly not on a class with the kind of mobility thief has. It needs to go. If you so much as breathe on a DE then they roll over and die. They're not broken nor is the ability for them to stealth. It's quite simply the only thing keeping them alive and if you aren't able to kill a profession that dies in 2 hits then that's a L2P issue right there. There's plentiful counters to a DE and you can even see if there's a DE in the PvP match tab. Use your resources like reflects or your own ranged attacks instead of just complaining. Not to mention any Forced Reveal and a DE is absolutely screwed. Reading is fundamental. My issue is with stealth, not deadeye. Poorly designed for competitive play. Stealth itself is fine, its out of combat stealth (i.e. being blown up by someone you never saw) thats an issue. DE doesnt really do that. I disagree. Quite the opposite, in fact. Strong openers are how stealth should work. In combat the ability to simply disappear whenever you want should be limited and class defenses/skills adjusted accordingly. No, thats how stealth exactly shouldnt work. It removes counterplay. You just get killed by a target you couldnt react to because you never were aware of their presence. Stealth in-combat is weak right now. Because its extremely unsafe and provides very little benefit. Thief doesnt "simply disappear whenever he wants", you still know its approximate location, and you often can hit them for a lot of damage when they attempt to enter stealth. You can track them using channeled skills, or cleave. You can hit them with AoE. In-combat stealth actually has a lot of counterplay (too much, right now, hence why the best way to use stealth in-combat ... is to not use stealth), and its perfectly fine. You can change direction when you stealth and the opponents is looking for you and wasting aoes on the right side , while you run of the left . You cant. Anything that stealths you locks you in a direction you move in. You could try afterwards, but yo ustill get tracked by cleave. They will also just throw AoEs at you during or right after you stealthed, and you will be hit by it. Theyre not. Use Rapid Fire on a stealthing thief, and watch as he drops dead. Your "suggestion" would make in-combat stealth go from underpowered to unusable. To call it one of the worst ideas ever conceived by anyone on these forums is to be nice about it. Silent Scope can be used if you croutch or not . You stealth on the left and then change direction to the right . You should watch some streams for some tips . Or run backwards , while he is thinking you are going further right . Silent Scope. You dodge to the left. I know youre on my left. I start cleaving towards that area. The second one of my cleave attacks fails to hit, I switch to the right and hit you with the cleave again. You die. Still enough to kill a thief. More than enough. Hold on, Ive heard this exact nonsense rhetoric before. ... youre an alt of that healer guy, arent you? Anyway, no, it cant be. For that matter, why would the Ranger use Quickness on this Rapid Fire? You use it without Rapid fire. No, you wont. You take the full brunt of the damage. Also you think Rapid Fire will do "2-3k"? Thats a good joke. I almost thought you were serious. So you need to close a decent chunk of distance first. And hope the enemy doesnt notice the animation being played. Yeah thats not gonna work. I can see that you used Deaths Retreat when youre stealthed. Im just gonna chuck the AoEs further back. Its easy. And leave yourself without initiative to do any real damage. While also still dying to every single thing that kills you because 600 units is not much. No need, I know the class well, much better than you do. And the community will tell you the same thing. Only you, and other people who dont know anything about thief wont. I already told you, the only time anyone should listen to their advice is if they want to become the worst thief player. If the enemy don't have quickness , with dodging you will avoid the 70% of the damage . The rest of 30% of the damage will be 2-3k in the pvp areas. So the argument that Rapid Fire Rangers will one shot you...its wrong ! I shouldnt be surprised that you have no clue about Rapid Fire either. Rapid Fire channels for 2.5 seconds. A dodge covers 0.75 seconds. Even if you dodge twice, you only avoid 60%, and that leaves you completely defenseless afterwards. 40% will be quite a bit more than 2-3k. Remember, 2-3k is what Prot Holo does with a 1.0 scaling Mortar kit. 40% is 1.1 scaling, and you have multipliers like Sic Em, Attack of Opportuntiy and what have you. Actually, not all of them do. Trickery is rather redundant on the build since you use M7. You also only restore 1 initiative in the Silent Scope stealth, since youre in it for only 1 second. And no, its still correct, you wasted 6 initiative without building any malice. You will struggle to get the M7 chain going. He absolutely can track you in stealth, you absolutely cant avoid AoEs. Advanced thieves dont use deaths retreat in stealth. In fact, "advanced thieves" dont bother with staying in stealth on DE. You enter stealth to immediately fire DJ and drop stealth. Not that it helps much, its 1 second of stealth, it barely lasts at all. Im sorry, have you forgotten? You already admitted that in-combat stealth is underpowered. That case was closed with the undeniable fact that it is underpowered being enshrined. If the rangers have Sic Em, Attack of Opportuntiy (which was nerfed 20 min ago) , they wont do more than 7k-8k in the PvP area . Thats so hilariously wrong Im assuming youre joking here. Why would they? Again, if you wanna catch out a thief, just use a raw rapid fire. Doesnt exactly help the thief who has no real way to stop the damage from killing him, especially if he is entering stealth and has no way to even do anything. Its not. But you were able to tell a funny joke. As usual your lack of knowledge about thief hurts you. Nope. You use Critical Strikes, not SA. Pretty straightforward concept, lots of extra damage, and unlike regular thief, you can reliably re-obtain fury thanks to M7. So even if it gets boon-ripped, youre not screwed. Again, you admitted that its underpowered. Dont try to ignore that. As I said, its case closed. You were wrong, its underpowered, simple end of story. Your insistence on continuing to lie doesnt help you here. So you are gonna avoid the answer that you gave to @AliamRationem.5172 , that Rapid Fire can one-shot thief trying to stealth and you dont have anything to back it up. Well, except for the fact that it does an absurd amount of damage and can "oneshot" the thief (stretching the meaning of the word here, but I digress). Just take a look at the damage in video, which isnt even the max. Good luck surviving that as a thief. Oh my. Looks like I guessed correctly. You are a killer alt. No wonder you use the same rhetoric and are equally clueless about the same things. Deadly Arts. Mug (which you get to use more because of how mark works), Revealed Training, usually Executioner. Nope. Also nope. You told me. Remember, you already admitted it. So please stop wasting my time with your alt. Hmm . In that video people didn't dodge . Its easy to see . And if they dodged , they would get 3-4k damage . Oprotunity got nerfed , so the burst is -25% now .So the argument that can easily one-shot the thief is not true (only if he is afk) and still you can use Sniper cover , if you are afraid . I am sorry but we are talking about real meta spec , not silly specs . Whos in their right mind would take Critical Strikes + the Elite +Deadly Arts and no defences . You can link me that metabattle spec ?So again with the question :Except of Critical Strikes + the Elite specialization , what third trait they choose ?SA for minot trait : Meld with Shadows (Movement Speed Increase: 50% while stealth) , orTrickery 15% increase damage +3 more reources ? Ask the community and don't make your assumptions that in-combat stealth is underpowered , if none have told you that ? Or someone told you ? Every thief that plays deadeye? It's the norm. Look, we can tell you don't play thief but Jesus Christ. His argument again is Rapid Fire (ONLY THIS SPELL) counters Rifle Thief . And the usual that stealth is underpowered Because it does. Rapid Fire counters all thieves.

First they bang bang me from 1500 distance. I go chase. They disappear in stealth. Then i hear sound, BOOOOOOM i got hit from 10k Death Judgement. They are again completely different spot than last time. I go chase again, they dodge and disappear in stealth. BOOOOOOOOM, again 10k dmg. I manage stun them and they shadowstep 1200 range away and dodge stealth. Just example why class is completely broken and needs emergency nerf. I don't know that it needs an emergency nerf, but this ability to stealth at will combined with insane mobility is simply broken. You can nerf damage down to 1 and make the class completely irrelevant, but the fact is stealth should not work this way and certainly not on a class with the kind of mobility thief has. It needs to go. If you so much as breathe on a DE then they roll over and die. They're not broken nor is the ability for them to stealth. It's quite simply the only thing keeping them alive and if you aren't able to kill a profession that dies in 2 hits then that's a L2P issue right there. There's plentiful counters to a DE and you can even see if there's a DE in the PvP match tab. Use your resources like reflects or your own ranged attacks instead of just complaining. Not to mention any Forced Reveal and a DE is absolutely screwed. Reading is fundamental. My issue is with stealth, not deadeye. Poorly designed for competitive play. Stealth itself is fine, its out of combat stealth (i.e. being blown up by someone you never saw) thats an issue. DE doesnt really do that. I disagree. Quite the opposite, in fact. Strong openers are how stealth should work. In combat the ability to simply disappear whenever you want should be limited and class defenses/skills adjusted accordingly. No, thats how stealth exactly shouldnt work. It removes counterplay. You just get killed by a target you couldnt react to because you never were aware of their presence. Stealth in-combat is weak right now. Because its extremely unsafe and provides very little benefit. Thief doesnt "simply disappear whenever he wants", you still know its approximate location, and you often can hit them for a lot of damage when they attempt to enter stealth. You can track them using channeled skills, or cleave. You can hit them with AoE. In-combat stealth actually has a lot of counterplay (too much, right now, hence why the best way to use stealth in-combat ... is to not use stealth), and its perfectly fine. You can change direction when you stealth and the opponents is looking for you and wasting aoes on the right side , while you run of the left . You cant. Anything that stealths you locks you in a direction you move in. You could try afterwards, but yo ustill get tracked by cleave. They will also just throw AoEs at you during or right after you stealthed, and you will be hit by it. Theyre not. Use Rapid Fire on a stealthing thief, and watch as he drops dead. Your "suggestion" would make in-combat stealth go from underpowered to unusable. To call it one of the worst ideas ever conceived by anyone on these forums is to be nice about it. Silent Scope can be used if you croutch or not . You stealth on the left and then change direction to the right . You should watch some streams for some tips . Or run backwards , while he is thinking you are going further right . Silent Scope. You dodge to the left. I know youre on my left. I start cleaving towards that area. The second one of my cleave attacks fails to hit, I switch to the right and hit you with the cleave again. You die. Still enough to kill a thief. More than enough. Hold on, Ive heard this exact nonsense rhetoric before. ... youre an alt of that healer guy, arent you? Anyway, no, it cant be. For that matter, why would the Ranger use Quickness on this Rapid Fire? You use it without Rapid fire. No, you wont. You take the full brunt of the damage. Also you think Rapid Fire will do "2-3k"? Thats a good joke. I almost thought you were serious. So you need to close a decent chunk of distance first. And hope the enemy doesnt notice the animation being played. Yeah thats not gonna work. I can see that you used Deaths Retreat when youre stealthed. Im just gonna chuck the AoEs further back. Its easy. And leave yourself without initiative to do any real damage. While also still dying to every single thing that kills you because 600 units is not much. No need, I know the class well, much better than you do. And the community will tell you the same thing. Only you, and other people who dont know anything about thief wont. I already told you, the only time anyone should listen to their advice is if they want to become the worst thief player. If the enemy don't have quickness , with dodging you will avoid the 70% of the damage . The rest of 30% of the damage will be 2-3k in the pvp areas. So the argument that Rapid Fire Rangers will one shot you...its wrong ! I shouldnt be surprised that you have no clue about Rapid Fire either. Rapid Fire channels for 2.5 seconds. A dodge covers 0.75 seconds. Even if you dodge twice, you only avoid 60%, and that leaves you completely defenseless afterwards. 40% will be quite a bit more than 2-3k. Remember, 2-3k is what Prot Holo does with a 1.0 scaling Mortar kit. 40% is 1.1 scaling, and you have multipliers like Sic Em, Attack of Opportuntiy and what have you. Actually, not all of them do. Trickery is rather redundant on the build since you use M7. You also only restore 1 initiative in the Silent Scope stealth, since youre in it for only 1 second. And no, its still correct, you wasted 6 initiative without building any malice. You will struggle to get the M7 chain going. He absolutely can track you in stealth, you absolutely cant avoid AoEs. Advanced thieves dont use deaths retreat in stealth. In fact, "advanced thieves" dont bother with staying in stealth on DE. You enter stealth to immediately fire DJ and drop stealth. Not that it helps much, its 1 second of stealth, it barely lasts at all. Im sorry, have you forgotten? You already admitted that in-combat stealth is underpowered. That case was closed with the undeniable fact that it is underpowered being enshrined. If the rangers have Sic Em, Attack of Opportuntiy (which was nerfed 20 min ago) , they wont do more than 7k-8k in the PvP area . Thats so hilariously wrong Im assuming youre joking here. Why would they? Again, if you wanna catch out a thief, just use a raw rapid fire. Doesnt exactly help the thief who has no real way to stop the damage from killing him, especially if he is entering stealth and has no way to even do anything. Its not. But you were able to tell a funny joke. As usual your lack of knowledge about thief hurts you. Nope. You use Critical Strikes, not SA. Pretty straightforward concept, lots of extra damage, and unlike regular thief, you can reliably re-obtain fury thanks to M7. So even if it gets boon-ripped, youre not screwed. Again, you admitted that its underpowered. Dont try to ignore that. As I said, its case closed. You were wrong, its underpowered, simple end of story. Your insistence on continuing to lie doesnt help you here. So you are gonna avoid the answer that you gave to @AliamRationem.5172 , that Rapid Fire can one-shot thief trying to stealth and you dont have anything to back it up. Well, except for the fact that it does an absurd amount of damage and can "oneshot" the thief (stretching the meaning of the word here, but I digress). Just take a look at the damage in video, which isnt even the max. Good luck surviving that as a thief. Oh my. Looks like I guessed correctly. You are a killer alt. No wonder you use the same rhetoric and are equally clueless about the same things. Deadly Arts. Mug (which you get to use more because of how mark works), Revealed Training, usually Executioner. Nope. Also nope. You told me. Remember, you already admitted it. So please stop wasting my time with your alt. Hmm . In that video people didn't dodge . Its easy to see . And if they dodged , they would get 3-4k damage . Oprotunity got nerfed , so the burst is -25% now .So the argument that can easily one-shot the thief is not true (only if he is afk) and still you can use Sniper cover , if you are afraid . I am sorry but we are talking about real meta spec , not silly specs . Whos in their right mind would take Critical Strikes + the Elite +Deadly Arts and no defences . You can link me that metabattle spec ?So again with the question :Except of Critical Strikes + the Elite specialization , what third trait they choose ?SA for minot trait : Meld with Shadows (Movement Speed Increase: 50% while stealth) , orTrickery 15% increase damage +3 more reources ? Ask the community and don't make your assumptions that in-combat stealth is underpowered , if none have told you that ? Or someone told you ?Every thief that plays deadeye? It's the norm. Look, we can tell you don't play thief but Jesus Christ.

Let me go play a match post-balance patch and come back with the biggest "I TOLD YOU SO" ever. The skill is slowly being taken out of thief and it's just obnoxious

First they bang bang me from 1500 distance. I go chase. They disappear in stealth. Then i hear sound, BOOOOOOM i got hit from 10k Death Judgement. They are again completely different spot than last time. I go chase again, they dodge and disappear in stealth. BOOOOOOOOM, again 10k dmg. I manage stun them and they shadowstep 1200 range away and dodge stealth. Just example why class is completely broken and needs emergency nerf. I don't know that it needs an emergency nerf, but this ability to stealth at will combined with insane mobility is simply broken. You can nerf damage down to 1 and make the class completely irrelevant, but the fact is stealth should not work this way and certainly not on a class with the kind of mobility thief has. It needs to go.If you so much as breathe on a DE then they roll over and die. They're not broken nor is the ability for them to stealth. It's quite simply the only thing keeping them alive and if you aren't able to kill a profession that dies in 2 hits then that's a L2P issue right there. There's plentiful counters to a DE and you can even see if there's a DE in the PvP match tab. Use your resources like reflects or your own ranged attacks instead of just complaining. Not to mention any Forced Reveal and a DE is absolutely screwed.

U must have missed the part where it said "Some of these clips are quite old" because that's not current thief damage. Pistol Whip wouldn't do a third of that damage now. Once again, even when you think you have something: you bring something old and irrelevant. Goodjob, what you did show is what potential a skilled thief has when they're allowed to do damage. Looks a lot different from all the skilled thieves right now that are forced to flee from nearly every single fighting situation doesn't it?

Did I ask to be a god tier 1v1er in my post? No I simply stated what thief was and what thief has become. I just want damage back and the ability to actually fight. This goes against the OP where you described thief as best 1v1 class or how it should be, it does look like as you expect thief to be god tier 1v1If you don't understand how writing works. I presentedExhibit A: Thief in its prime that was the #1 1v1 class and could fight any other profession toe to toethen compared it withExhibit B: Thief currently that isn't able to 1v1 any other profession right now If you think I'm asking for a god tier 1v1 profession then you're wrong or just can't read quite well. You should comprehend from what I wrote that I'm asking for a class that can compete, not simply exist. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk, u can leave now.

Did I ask to be a god tier 1v1er in my post? No I simply stated what thief was and what thief has become. I just want damage back and the ability to actually fight.

TECHNICALLY deadeye can permanently stealth and permanently keep removing and avoiding reveal debuff, with shadowmeld, waiting it out or waiting for stealth to run out before attacking, and this pisses people off. But in practice its conquest so nobody gives a kitten as long as you dont impact the map or steal nodes from people.Deadeye is just annoying, but when you look at that spec why do people play it? to win? hell nah, just to kitten people off. This^ I'd bet its few few times anyone's said man sure glad we had that DE on our team lol usually it's more like man if that DE played anything but DE we may have won. DE in my team = this sucks.DE in enemy team = this suck but i propably winand weren't you a main person claiming that thief didn't need a buff?

Not enough to keep it up for 15 seconds. Dash rans out after 3 dashes, and you dont regain one for 10 seconds. Heartseeker-wise, you run out of initiative after 7 heartseekers, at 6 seconds. Then you heartseeker once every 3 seconds. So total distance traveled is an average of 900/1.5 seconds for the first 6 seconds, then 2.25*400 + 0.75 *450 every 3 seconds, for lets say 9 seconds. Total distance: 3600 + 3712 = 7312. In 16 seconds. Comparision: Holo has a consistent 1.25*400 + 0.75*600 every 2 seconds, for a total of 8 times. Thats 7600. Faster, Im afraid. Oh and any more travel time makes the distance worse. Oh and it gets even worse, because Holo has other movement skills and tools they can use, like Radiant Arc. And Quickness which benefits you. The distance widens. And thats just Holo, which isnt exactly high on the mobility list. Nope, on no map is that the case. I will also let you in on a little dark secret of sPvP. Its called "inclines". Have you ever tried moving from mid to far on Legacy using dashes, vs using shortbow? Its so much slower. Good luck. And that argument is wrong, see above. Congratulations, you failed to answer the question. As such, we will now procceed with eliminating the contradiction. Well, Sindrener not using in-combat stealth is easily verified. It is true. So, only one assumption remains. "In-combat stealth is good and high tier thieves use it". Since its the only one left, it has to be wrong. Ergo, in-combat stealth is bad and high tier thieves (such as Sindrener) do not use it. Proof through contradiction. Q.E.D. Nice, thats finished then. Please do not ever try to say that its good, you have already been proven wrong. Also you really dont understand what "retract a statement" means, do you? I already said that that statement is wrong, if it pleases you. Its not really important, after all. I can already prove you wrong through the contradiction, and the question you refuse to answer. You dont need 15 sec to cover 2 bases , you need 6Your initial argument is that Thiefs needshortbow , which i have shown you they don't . Doing 2 Infritrators arrows ,12 resources , for 1800 range , while 3x Hertsseker+Dash can cover 2700 distance + cost 6resources . (if you arelockedin those animation and restorre resouces) I saw people use stealth on the tournamentsYour initial argument that people dont use steal , is not validCould you show me thread or video where Tokier+ Sind , said to the new thieves that they shouldn't use stealth , please ? I'm not exactly sure what you two are talking about, but he may be alluding to the fact that thieves really dont have any stealth or initiative to waste and so if they put everything on CD just going to a point, then they're completely screwed when they're confronted by somebody and have no: damage, stealth, or initiative (best stealth takes initiative mostly) to get out of said situation. So thieves should actually use stealth as frugal as possible so they are able to do something when the time is right. Remember: Most initiative isn't used for offensive reasons by thieves, but rather for defensive reasons. If he uses 2x Inflatrator arrows, he would waste 12 resources , and he cannot no longer attackIf he uses 3x Dash+Heartseeker , he would waste 6 (after some are restored) and have 6 to attack .We are kinda in an argument if Shortbow , is a MUST on not , now that Dash exist ... what's a thief supposed to do with 6 initiative in any weapon set? Die?

Not enough to keep it up for 15 seconds. Dash rans out after 3 dashes, and you dont regain one for 10 seconds. Heartseeker-wise, you run out of initiative after 7 heartseekers, at 6 seconds. Then you heartseeker once every 3 seconds. So total distance traveled is an average of 900/1.5 seconds for the first 6 seconds, then 2.25*400 + 0.75 *450 every 3 seconds, for lets say 9 seconds. Total distance: 3600 + 3712 = 7312. In 16 seconds. Comparision: Holo has a consistent 1.25*400 + 0.75*600 every 2 seconds, for a total of 8 times. Thats 7600. Faster, Im afraid. Oh and any more travel time makes the distance worse. Oh and it gets even worse, because Holo has other movement skills and tools they can use, like Radiant Arc. And Quickness which benefits you. The distance widens. And thats just Holo, which isnt exactly high on the mobility list. Nope, on no map is that the case. I will also let you in on a little dark secret of sPvP. Its called "inclines". Have you ever tried moving from mid to far on Legacy using dashes, vs using shortbow? Its so much slower. Good luck. And that argument is wrong, see above. Congratulations, you failed to answer the question. As such, we will now procceed with eliminating the contradiction. Well, Sindrener not using in-combat stealth is easily verified. It is true. So, only one assumption remains. "In-combat stealth is good and high tier thieves use it". Since its the only one left, it has to be wrong. Ergo, in-combat stealth is bad and high tier thieves (such as Sindrener) do not use it. Proof through contradiction. Q.E.D. Nice, thats finished then. Please do not ever try to say that its good, you have already been proven wrong. Also you really dont understand what "retract a statement" means, do you? I already said that that statement is wrong, if it pleases you. Its not really important, after all. I can already prove you wrong through the contradiction, and the question you refuse to answer. You dont need 15 sec to cover 2 bases , you need 6Your initial argument is that Thiefs needshortbow , which i have shown you they don't . Doing 2 Infritrators arrows ,12 resources , for 1800 range , while 3x Hertsseker+Dash can cover 2700 distance + cost 6resources . (if you arelockedin those animation and restorre resouces) I saw people use stealth on the tournamentsYour initial argument that people dont use steal , is not validCould you show me thread or video where Tokier+ Sind , said to the new thieves that they shouldn't use stealth , please ?I'm not exactly sure what you two are talking about, but he may be alluding to the fact that thieves really dont have any stealth or initiative to waste and so if they put everything on CD just going to a point, then they're completely screwed when they're confronted by somebody and have no: damage, stealth, or initiative (best stealth takes initiative mostly) to get out of said situation. So thieves should actually use stealth as frugal as possible so they are able to do something when the time is right. Remember: Most initiative isn't used for offensive reasons by thieves, but rather for defensive reasons.

Oh my God. This thread got over 100 comments overnight?

I can single handedly tell all of you that I just played my first game as a rev and it's as button mashing as it gets. Put up 8 kills with no problem on a losing team and had unlimited damage. It's skill floor and ceiling are definitely way lower than thieves so idk why people on this thread have been trying to compare the two. Thief is actually difficult to learn. Rev is definitely forgiving.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away. Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you? Not really? Think about it this way. You can never kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter. You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust. Well, no. On thief you either lose or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run before he really fought. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately. Except in praxis, you dont have to burn any big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative. Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief MASSIVE buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist. I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance options Nah, right now buffs wouldnt be followed by nerfs. They would possibly be followed by more buffs, because as it stands, thief fails to accomplish even +1s well. The damage was lowered too much, especially with the Assassins Signet nerf. S/D was fine for most of the time. It got nerfed really early on deservedly, but just pre-HoT it was in a good state. Besides, the sad truth is that as it stands, thief will be stuck in the decap and +1 role as is. All we can do is make sure its at least good at those (which currently it is not). Maybe a future elite spec removes the ability to weaponswap in exchange for massive damage increase. When something does its job too well..it get nerfed in the end, if you see thief only getting buffs...then you can't expect huge buffs else you remove the ability from other professions to counter thief and that will leads to nerfs for thief in the endExhibit A of why this isn't true: RangersExhibit B of why this isn't true: Guardians

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1? You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here? Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of exactly bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely. Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells) It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth. The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleanceI beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resourceshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug Sir. Running Hidden Thief is redundant. I've already explained this to you. Doing any damage reveals you from stealth. EVERY thief runs Mug. I promise you you aren't making any sense.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1? You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here? Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of exactly bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely. Well i not sure about that .In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder)Stealth on Steal is redundant actually because Steal does damage itself. Most of the time when thieves use steal, they're already stealthed. So if they used Hidden Thief to receive said stealth on steal, they would just end up revealing themselves. It's pretty obvious you guys don't play thief.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away. Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you? Not really? Think about it this way. You can never kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter. You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust. Well, no. On thief you either lose or you run away. You never win. Its not like thief can immediately disengage every fight whenever. He has to run while his initiative is still high. I.e. he has to make the decision to run before he really fought. However, a thief knows he cant win any fight. So he just runs away immediately. Except in praxis, you dont have to burn any big CDs to deal with a thief. On the other hand, if he stays in a fight, he will probably have to burn shadowstep. Im not justifying "hit and run tactics" as much as Im pointing out there is a reason thieves go for "hit and run". They have no alternative. Not feasible. If you do that, you have to hit Shortbow 5, which is the cornerstone of thief and the only reason thief is playable. If you do hit it, then in exchange you have to give thief MASSIVE buffs. Im talking damage boosted by at least 50% (not neccessarily the burst), initiative costs slashed accross the board, increase in healing accross the board, and access to actual good active defenses. Good luck getting that pushed through, the thief haters will jump on you, and the people who are left playing thief because they enjoy the +1 and decap playstyle will be angry because that build will no longer exist. I am just suggesting to propose some counter balance options, that would facilitate the creation of a stable base, without it..any buff will inevitably be followed by harsh nerfs. They tried to answer your demands in the past with s/d thief, the combination of mobility, unblockable and 1v1 sustain proved to be too much and it got nerfed...unless you want to see a repetition you must propose some counterbalance optionsLets go over everything that kills S/D thief: Holosmith easily, all rangers but soulbeast especially, core necro and scourge, tempest and weaver, FB and DH, SB. That's plentiful counterplay already for your top of the top thief build. Not to mention all the reveal and ranged attacks that obliterate it.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away. Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you? If the thief was forced to run, then doesn't that mean you won? So no it doesn't sound OP. It just sounds like you're happy your kills couldn't go up by 1. The point of conquest isn't to kill, it's to capture a point. This isn't the courtyard, and so if they're forced to flee the scene: They've obviously lost. It's 15s to respawn and another 15s more or less to reach the nearest point, half minute to give a point boost to your team or promote a snowballing effect...yeah killing opponents is important in conquest ; even more because you're facing a profession that can recover its attack pattern in 1/3 of the time you need and also can move 2-3x as fast as youSir, you're not getting it. a thief isn't snowballing anything. It's +1 potential is atrocious and it's a liability in groupfights. A thief getting away is about as significant as you possibly getting decapped on a different point before the thief is either intercepted on the way there or manages to successfully decap it. Mobility alone is so insignificant if you can't do anything with said mobility. Imagine if you could get between home and far in 3 seconds. Now imagine the only downhill part of this was that you only did 3k bursts and autoattacks did 100 damage. Is this a build or playstyle that you would want to play yourself? Is this a feasible way that any class should play when ranger pets are doing more damage or even 1 attack out of a chain from other professions. People just don't want to see a profession with a high skill ceiling and floor act like a class with a high ceiling and floor and so both are diminished down. And there's this rolling over effect of nerfs and having to rely on ones teams. But imagine when your team is absolutely atrocious and as a thief, sometimes i'm the best person on my team. Imagine when the best person on your team is a person that does 5k damage for a spike. That's not the kind of best person I want on MY team and that's not the kind of pvp we should have where you're the best hitting people for laughable amounts of damage. I for one believe in actual pvp. Not tickling amounts of mediocre play.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away. Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you? Not really? Think about it this way. You can never kill someone who sits afk in their base. He will never lose. Does that sound OP to you? A thief only loses when he wants to because he avoids all fights. Because he knows he can never win. Its not a sign of being OP, its a sign of being the worst fighter. You get zero rewards for moral victory being it short lived anyway, nobody care if you run , come back and win ...the whole point is to get rewarded with a kill. Basically outside of thief, you either win or lose...on thief you either win or just try again and that's what people find annoying and unjust. Another issue is the Initiative mechanic: possibly to avoid death after a spike you use a big CD while the thief will have everything up and ready to go again in a dozen seconds or so, you're justifying hit and run tactics without proposing solutions to mitigate it and give in return more leverage for the thief to stay in the fight. Don't you think it would be more balanced to give thief more incombat sustain in return for less escaping potential?If you can't kill a thief out of initiative in 12 seconds, then that sounds like a learn to play issue. especially on a class as broken as guardian is currently. Also the point about running: once again, if a thief is forced to run: which they 100% are forced to do now since we can't win fights; why are you not happy just taking the point? Maybe you should try a different form of gameplay if you're only satisfied with kills instead of completing the main and only real objective of conquest pvp: capturing the point.

That's a problem in itself, we need ways to punish thief with power dmg...so far only condis seems to work They exist. The problem is that in order to punish a thief, the thief has to stay and fight. But they know they cant, so they run away. And you cant kill someone who ran away. Yes my point is, if you can't punish the thief because you can't catch it....a thief basically only lose when he wants to...doesn't that sound OP to you?If the thief was forced to run, then doesn't that mean you won? So no it doesn't sound OP. It just sounds like you're happy your kills couldn't go up by 1. The point of conquest isn't to kill, it's to capture a point. This isn't the courtyard, and so if they're forced to flee the scene: They've obviously lost.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1? You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here? So what you're saying is that you can't answer my question? Your question was already answered in the past, they tried to give thieves a more duellist spec with s/d..and that proved to be too strong, nerfs followed few months later. I believe they should scrap the initiative system for starterIt was strong or people called for nerfs because people can't figure out how to plat a profession with medium armor and 11,645 health? I remember the S/D meta about 4 seasons ago. It was still hard countered by every melee profession + Reaper + Ranger + Holosmith + Weaver. Thief has very rarely been too strong. There's been moments where some brain dead build pops up. For example that condi dodge build that I pray never comes back. However, S/D thief? It has absolutely never been too strong. People just cry and don't think how to beat a build that can shadowstep freely.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1? Not going to go back and count them all out but ironically thief probably had more 1v1 wins than the other classes as most 1v1's were tank ranger/engi/renegade/necro stalemating until one side got a plus where as the condi thieves would occasionally 100-0 targets on their own which is close enough to a 1v1 win and there were quite a few power thief mirror duels where one side won.So i'm seeing two different things. One, that while nobody really won any 1v1s, it took a broken condition thief build to actually win a 1v1 against other professions. What I'm also seeing is that you have to run a condi thief build as well as Sindrener and Vallun to get kills in ranked or AT's now. That's concerning. for the 99.99999% of thieves that aren't Sindrener and Vallun. You might as well play 8 of the other 9 professions at that point then because it sounds like the thieves were: dedicated +1ers and decappers.

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1? You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?So what you're saying is that you can't answer my question?

How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring. In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3. The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant. A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous. Its not entirely irrelevant . It is entirely irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is. Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over. But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments . Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better. Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now. But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2. Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class? @darren.1064 said: He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring. In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3. The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant. A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous. Its not entirely irrelevant . It is entirely irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is. Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over. But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments . Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better. Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now. But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2. Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class? I don't understand..you want to play an assassin right?! well an assassin is not a brawler at least not in a MMO. As far as I am concerned , the thief class should be specialized in +1 quick burst to create imbalances during fight and at the same time it should not have the sustain to last in a fight against a spec made for sustain, a burst class like thief should have an assassin spec and a duellist spec ( possibly a support spec ) , the assassin spec superior to other class while the duellist spec inferior to other classes, the difference between a duellist and assassin spec would be the lack of extreme mobility/disengage in first case compared to the latterPlease read my initial post that began this entire conversation. Then come back

He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring. In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3. The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant. A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous. Its not entirely irrelevant . It is entirely irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is. Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over. But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments . Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better. Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now. But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .Just like 2 French teams -un baquet Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2. Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classesSo... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?