[*Spoilers* If you could change One moment in the entire story of GW2, what would it be? *Spoilers*]

Having Malyck and his tree show up in HoT. Hes one of the few plot threads in GW2 of any sort of significance that isn't resolved, or has a logical "in road" into the story to be resolved.

[Origin of the Six]

@DraconusShade.4590 said:As there is no lore on the Six’s origins beyond the fact that they came to Tyria from another world along with a group of humans, I was wondering if they were simply humans who somehow managed to replace the Elder Dragons or whatever discharged the functions of the Elder Dragons in their home world. If the removal of magic from the world is mandatory to maintain balance and the humans who replaced the Elder Dragons refused to kill their former kin out of compassion then their home world would’ve been destroyed, forcing them to migrate to another with whatever humans they could save.The Scrolls found in Orr suggest the Six were fleeing their previous world to escape some grand catastrophe, which may have claimed the life of Balthazar's father.

Is that what the Gods are not telling the humans? Is that why they are simply deciding to move away to some other world to wait out the Elder Dragons so they wouldn’t have to combat them or see their worshippers die? They now understand that the cycle is necessary but they are not happy about it so they choose not to take part in it.

The Six also consider the Elder Dragons their polar opposites, which means that while the Six encourage the use of magic, the Elder Dragons want to consume it and keep it away from the mortal races of Tyria. It could also be that the Six are afraid that the Elder Dragons might siphon away their own magic, causing them to lose their divinity.The Six left Tyria because any direct combat with the Elder Dragons would have resulted in the same ecological devastation that happened when they fought Abbadon, The fight with Abbadon is what nuked the Crystal Sea, and turned it into the Crystal Desert. Imagine that happening 6 times over around the world. The planet would be toast. The Six knew they couldn't do anything to save Tyira, either they do nothing, and the Dragons eat everything, or they fight the dragons, and destroy the world, its a lose/lose situation for them.

So what is the prevailing theory on the origin of the Six and the Elder Dragons? Where do you think the Six went? Do the Elder Dragons know of the existence of the Six? What happened to the original home world of the humans and are the Gods choosing to be selfish and have decided to preserve their divinity rather then jeopardise it in a war with the Elder Dragons?The Elder Dragons do know of the six. Zhaitan's minions make baseless remarks about Zhaitan having killed and consumed the Six in the Mists, and other such things we know are untrue.

And a book in Path of Fire says the Six went to another planet, to terraform it into a paradise, and that they would return to Tyria and take their followers there once they are done.

[My speculation on how the rest of the season will play out]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:But it dosesn't seem like Bangar is really informed enough to know that much about Elder Dragons so I guess it will just be a simple rub of the forehead that doesn't make a whole lot of sense with the established story.You have to remember, Dragons feed off of the magical energy collected by their followers, and Jormag has had a couple years now for his minions to collect energy to awaken him. At this point I think its more of a "kick start" on Bangar's part then anything, not a "he's taking Jormag from 0 to 100"

Unrelated, but I am also guessing that Anet is setting up Braham to be Asgeir 2.0. Braham already has a weapon infused with Jotun magic(the bow), has gone north with a band of warriors(Dragon's Watch), has been given power by the spirits of the wild(Wolf, Ox, Eagle, Wolverine), killed a champion of Jormag with the spirit's help(Drakkar) and Jormag's already tied to mess with his mind. Unlike Asgier however, who had his entire hunting party get destroyed, leaving him alone to be manipulated by Jormag, Dragon Watch isn't all going to die, so Jormag's attempt to manipulate Braham will fail in the end, and, while Braham probably wont get the FINAL blow, he is going to do what Asgeir failed and use the bow to help kill Jormag.

[A Permanent solution for the Magic overload of Tyria]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:While Primordus probably could do something similar, that wouldn't account for the massive model change all the same.We already know Jormag was able to use magic to reshape Drakkar's body from what it was in GW1, to what we see in GW2. Why couldn't the EDs do the same to themselves? They aren't organic(in the traditional sense), they are magical beings. If Kralk can turn his body into a literal storm, why can't he reshape it into whatever he wants? Why couldn't the others? I think you are applying to much real world logic to things that are basically just natural magical constructs.

I mean if he had a dake-like body, just look at this image done by that_shaman, ignore the wings and maybe the length of the tail, still as large as a full zone, and would no doubt collapse a city if he were to so much as shrug let alone vacate a location to become a stream of lava.This is a silly comparison image. Things in MMOs are not scaled to each other accurately.

If we take the world map of Tyriahttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/b/be/Tyria_%28world%29_map_2.pngAnd wrap it around a globehttps://i.imgur.com/qGVkbGt.pngWe end up with a situation where many of these zones would realistically be as large, or larger, then some states in the U.S. Whereas Primordus would only be a coupe miles wide using his head as a reference.

Btw, Jormag isn't said to personally become a blizzard/storm, only capable of forming them. In one case, at least, he formed a blizzard with his mind inside of it at a great distance to his personal self, when the Dragonspawn was slain.I was referencing his description in Edge of Destiny, which explicitly described him as a living blizzard.

[A Permanent solution for the Magic overload of Tyria]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Something along those lines could definitely work. My biggest issue - aside from Primordus' face becoming far more "generic lava dragon" in look - is that the implied size just makes no sense for a burrowing dragon.Given that both Kralk, and Jormag, are stated to be able to become "storms", instead of remaining as a solid physical body, I could easily see Primodrus being able to do something similar. Like, instead of being a solid dragon body, he just turns into a liquid magma stream and can move around that way at a fraction of the space. Just looking at how Kralk's neck was in PoF, to later in All or Nothing, and War Eternal, he went from being like the Shatterer, a bunch of rock held together by magic, to being fully formed "flesh". At least some of the ED's apparently have some ability to control how physical they are.

One could even argue him getting smaller throughout the various model changes was simply him compressing his body size down, not like he HAS any actual organs inside him really. He could probably make himself any size he wanted so long as he had enough material and magic to control it.

[Why "Dominion?"]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I've seen a few of such thoughts leading to believing that it's the setup for a post-Elder Dragon plot for GW2 to keep going forward, since we're at our last most-active Elder Dragon (yeah there's Primordus and the deep sea dragon but they've had so little influence in GW2 that they - especially the DSD - could end up ignored for a long time).At the rate they are going, the Dragon plot wont be done until GW2 is like 14-15 years old. Most MMOs don't even make it that long, at least not with active content development.

Honestly, people should be more concerned about the game not being finished, then Anet needing to think up some sort of post-Dragon narrative,

[My speculation on how the rest of the season will play out]

@Revolution.5409 said:The death of kralk is the ending of PoF,No, the death of Kralkatorik is the end of LWS4. The ending of PoF is the celebration of the death of Balthazar at Amnoon.If it had been another game they would have released all the xpac content immediately,Also no. Every single MMO I know sets up storylines in expansion packs that get resolved in future expansion packs, or in the content releases between expansion packs. That is called basic narrative setup. That does not mean those future expansion packs, or the content between expansion packs, it just some part of the first expansion pack they cut out.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:But if he's waking him in the map, how does that happen if we're not in the same area?Same way we kill Drakkar in episode 2, despite Drakkar not being on the map when we kill him... we got into an instanced story mission that begins on the map, and takes us slightly outside it.Really though, how is he going to "wake" Jormag?With the power of plot mcguffin. Who knows, maybe Bangar feeds Jormag his entire Frost Legion army so Jormag can absorb all of their power to wake up.

[My speculation on how the rest of the season will play out]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:That doesn't mean that Jormag is in northern Drizzlewood. Could be to the right of the map.

While I'm not saying it isn't likely next episode, that text doesn't prove that Jormag is in the northern part of the map.Them going through Drizzlewood doesn't really make sense anyway, when they could have just gone west or southwest.You know that isn't what I meant. Jormag is accessible through the northern part of Drizzlewood, be it to the east, west, or north, of the actual in-game map proper.

Also, going straight west or southwest wouldn't have worked due that giant, unscalable, ice wall on the western end of Bjora Marches, that seems to extend past the map in both directions. Bangar's army would have been forced to skirt around it, probably onto the giant ice lake, and then arrive in southern Drizzlewood, and then go north.

[My speculation on how the rest of the season will play out]

@Revolution.5409 said:It would be wasteful to remove a dragon outside of an expansion.We already did it with Kralkatorik.

[My speculation on how the rest of the season will play out]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:While many would see this as bad considering the "Frost Legion" was just introduced, I'm not sure how much they can really do with that plot anyway. If not the second half of this episode, then the next episode after another Vision episode. If we don't finish Bangar and Ryland in Drizzlewood, I imagine we'll chase him to wherever Jormag is sleeping and will ultimately "wake" Jormag.We are already chasing Bangar to where Jormag is sleeping, that is where Bangar is going right now. They mentioned this at the end of Visions of the Pasthttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Darkrime_Delves_(story)Rytlock Brimstone: Yeah. Cre's got some updates from the front lines.Rytlock Brimstone: Bangar's forces have trekked pretty far north. He's almost made it to Jormag, and when that happens—well, no one knows.Rytlock Brimstone: Crecia's got all the imperators playing nice. For now.Rytlock Brimstone: Things will only get worse from here. Bangar's a piece of work, but without him there's a power vacuum.Rytlock Brimstone: I know Cre can handle herself, but when the fighting gets ugly, she's gonna need our support.Jormag is sleeping somewhere in the northern part of Drizzlewood, on the other side of the bridge. Bangar waking Jormag is almost certainly going to be the finale of the next episode.

[A Permanent solution for the Magic overload of Tyria]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I didn't know people had figured out what it said! Nice read. Really paints Jormag even more as a curious character with uncertain goals. I'm loving it.Honestly, this just makes Jormag seem more of like what we already knew it was, a being that is really good at telling people what they want to hear in order to manipulate them.

Jormag's idea is how to save the world is as it says "Ice fortifies. Ice protects" which is alluded to in this translation with the line

Numb the pain with ice and frost!It will save the world alright, but it will do so by making it a giant ice ball where everything is frozen solid. Its no different then how Zhaitan's minions talked about wanting to death the pain and separation of death.... by making everyone part of Zhaitan's undead army.

The game has made it pretty clear at this point, the Dragons, and their minions, are liars, don't listen to them, don't consider anything they say, don't believe for a moment anything they say is true, its all a ruse. All they want is everything for themselves.

[My speculation on how the rest of the season will play out]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:There may be more Visions of the Past releases in-between Story releases, but there may be other kinds of releases in-between, as well. Thus, it may be longer until the expansion is seen.That just makes it seem like there will be something like a content to determine who the next Khan-Ur is, and players will get to participate in determining that. They could easily do that as part of episode 5's content, not necessarily requiring a new, different, thing beyond an episode or Visions of the Past update.

@"Poormany.4507" said:Agree with the Bangar/Jormag plot predictions, but I also feel like the "bigger threat" that Jormag has been alluding to will likely come into play, whether it's the DsD, Primordus, or something else. DsD seems far more likely for a Canthan expansion to make it dragon related. I'm guessing it or its minions will show up either right after we defeat Jormag or in a subsequent epilogue episode, similar to how Kralk became more active and attacked Amnoon right after we killed Balthazar at the end of PoF.That is generally what I predict the epilogue chapter will be for. Jormag will makes some sort of vague statement as it dies, we are like "wonder what it was talking about?" and then we get the Cantha tie in in the epilogue.

[My speculation on how the rest of the season will play out]

After posting a similar thread on Reddit, I figured I might as well do so here. This is how I suspect the rest of the season will go based on how the current plot is progressing, and how Anet has handled previous stories.

The next story chapter is obviously going to take us to the northern part of Drizzlewood, where we will be continuing to follow Bangar, and trying to stop him from waking Jormag. We will obviously fail at this, and Jormag will almost certainly be awake by the end of the next story chapter. Bangar might die here, I could see him trying to use the bow to control Jormag, only to have Jormag just annihilate him now that his purpose is served, and all the Charr under him are Frostbrood. That, or he will be transformed into a Frostbrood champion by Jormag that we will either kill here, or later during the final battle. Probably the latter if anything.

The next two chapters after that will probably be the Icebrood Saga's "mcguffin" section. The Rata Novus/Thunderhead Peaks story segment where we go somewhere to find some specific magic/technology/knowledge needed to stop Jormag. They will also most likely have a shared map like Bjora and Drizzlewood. I am not 100% sure where this will be, Thunderhead Peaks was itself something of a curve ball with the rest of the season location wise, but given that I've yet to see any suggestion the world map will be expanded, and that the story so far has been up north, and that we saw a section in the trailer with centaurs and human slaves, we may see another map in the Woodland Cascades, covering the main center section of it.

The chapter after that will be the "fight Jormag" story section. Icebrood Saga's Dragon's Stand/Dragonfall map, where we deal with Jormag. Again, assuming they don't expand the map further north, this makes most sense to take place in that big ice lake area between Bjora, Drizzlewood, the EoTN, and Bitterfrost, as Jormag was already known to hang out around there back when Bitterfrost came out. I will also say this one will probably not be a two parter like Bjora, or Drizzlewood, but instead a single map like the other Dragon fight maps. I just don't see them splitting the big dragon fight meta into two separate, unconnected, metas.

Now, I will say that I doubt this will be Icebrood Saga's last chapter. Icebrood Saga is different from the previous LW seasons in that its called a Saga, a term used for a long, epic, story, and has a dedicated prologue chapter unlike LWS 2, 3, and 4. Long epic stories that have a prologue tend to have an epilogue, and I could easily see Icebrood Saga having an epilogue chapter as well, taking place after Jormag is dead, and leading into the upcoming Cantha expansion. The most obvious place would be the Dominion of Winds, with the Tengu deciding to open it now that four of the dragons are dead. This will end with them either proclaiming they are going back to retake their homelands in Cantha, or the Canthan's just attack for seemingly no reason, leaving us going "welp, time to go to Cantha to figure this out" for the expansion.

I will also guess that we will get Vision of the Past updates between Drizzlewood, and the next map, and between that map and the Jormag fight map, and these will show more of Ryland's action in between the story segments. Right off the bat I can see the next one dealing with Bangar's assault on the villages in southern Drizzlewood, and Ryland not being comfortable with killing all these people for no reason.

Ryland will probably defect from Bangar at the end of the next chapter, after seeing how badly hes screwed up with trying to reign in Jormag. That doesn't necessarily mean hes going to join us, especially not after what Smodur did, but I don't see him staying with Bangar.

With an average of 2 months between releases, and about 6-7 more releases before Icebrood Saga is likely over, this should take us into the middle of next year at the earliest, probably a little later in the year, and the expansion will come out a bit after that.

[Ryland's status? [spoilers]]

@Jimbru.6014 said:Smodur murdering Cinder, and then Crecia's utterly STUPID saving of Smodur from Ryland (which IMHO is one of the worst plots moves ANet has ever conceived in GW2)Letting Smodur die would have been an absolutely terrible move on Crecia's part because then they would have to deal with not only Bangar, and large parts of the Blood Legion, going off the rails, but a power vacuum in the Iron Legion, which would cripple the United Legion's ability to put up a resistance against the Dominion/Frost Legion.

[*Spoilers* If you could change One moment in the entire story of GW2, what would it be? *Spoilers*]

@Hannelore.8153 said:As we later learn in Lake Doric, yes, Queen Jennah would've survived, which makes Snaff's death a waste. Jennah was revealed to be the most powerful Mesmer in Kryta, able to instantly kill people with her finger and shielding an entire city.

She fought next to the Pact Commander barefoot while talking about gardening.Except she didn't shield an entire city. she simply activated a pre-made ward that was built around the city.

[Why "Dominion?"]

@Vilin.8056 said:Ring any bell to you?

GW2 made many cultural references in its contents, this is just of of them.Thats not really a Starcraft reference. Hell, Star Trek had similar named for United Earth, and The Dominion. Its just common naming.

[*Spoilers* If you could change One moment in the entire story of GW2, what would it be? *Spoilers*]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well, there was some time passing between Episode 3 and Episode 5, so one could argue that Braham somehow made Jormag move.Well, technically speaking, it was only mentioned that it was "believed" that Jormag had taken up residence near Bitterfrost. Per Elder Ulf. His belief was apparently wrong, or, as mentioned, Jormag moved in the time between when that comment was made, and Braham went to go fight him.

One could argue Jormag went more south to try to soak up some more of that delicious magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth's deaths, and then went a bit back north after he got all he could from being so far away, but still in his controlled zone.

[Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ?]

@"Genesis.8572" said:Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."Pretty much.-LWS2 and HoT were the Sylvari story focus.-Icebrood Saga is the Norn/Charr story focus.-The Primordus LW/Saga/expansion/whatever they do for it will be the Asura story focus.-Elona and Cantha are, OFC, Human story focus.

[Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ?]

We are only like.... 4/9ths of the way through the Icebrood Saga. Not even technically half way. Less if we get another Visions of the Past type update.

Plenty of time for some Norn stuff.

[The disappointing story (Spoilers)]

@draxynnic.3719 said:I'm pretty confident at this stage that the next chapter will be south of the current one as the Frost Legion pushes south and even the headquarters at Umbral Grotto need to be evacuated.North according to the Shaman, and the massive bridge on the map that obviously goes somewhere. The bridge is just like the door in the mountains in Bjora from episode 1.

Its been stated that Bangar is going north to try to waken Jormag. Ryland and the forces he is commanding are likely just there to stall us. While we got ambushed by Frost Legion forces at the Bridge the end of this release, we also still canonally hold all the territory. If anything, I suspect Ryland will go north to meet up with Bangar, having delayed us a sufficient amount of time already.

I would suspect we go north to find Ryland/Bangar, have some big fight at some ice fortress of doom, the Charr Civil War conflict is ended(not that Bangar or Ryland are dead mind you), and then the rest of the season is us still chasing down Banger, he wakes up Jomarg, we do something to remove Jormag as a problem(either we kill it or something) and then maybe we get some sort of tease to lead into the Cantha plot.

[The disappointing story (Spoilers)]

I do think this dev comment from late last year is very relevanthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/997916/#Comment_997916

Good question! I'll use the charr as an example, since we discussed them pretty in depth while Alex was working on his Rytlock piece for the Requiem Twine series. On the surface, you've got a militaristic race of cat-people separated into three High Legions + the Flame Legion (and the Olmakhan). Before that, they were one group led by a Khan-Ur--so the closest real world parallel we've got is the Mongol Empire with Genghis Khan at its head. Like the charr, the Mongol Empire was formed by someone who united a bunch of nomadic tribes for the purpose of conquering. Both were very good at it (and both were responsible for the large-scale massacres of civilian populations).

In Guild Wars 2, we're further down the road; the Khan-Ur is dead and most of the charr are split across the Blood Legion, the Iron Legion, and the Ash Legion--all of which are led by a descendant of the original Khan-Ur. Something similar happened after Genghis Khan's death--if you're interested you can check out the Toluid Civil War, even though it's not a 1:1 comparison. Our imperators are on relatively good terms with each other (with the exception of the Flame Legion, which is a whole other kettle of fish) because there's strength in numbers, and so far this setup has been working pretty well for them. They're also on good terms with the other races of Tyria due to the Ebonhawke Treaty, which is itself an extension of this agreement that the imperators have with each other. That is to say: they're willing to work together for a common goal. In the past, that was expanding their territory and influence. Now, it's dealing with the Elder Dragon Problem (and other localized threats). That doesn't mean the desire to conquer goes away, though--especially not in older charr whose worldview is pretty entrenched in their personal identities. The Ebonhawke Treaty is still very new in the scheme of things, and no group of people is a monolith. The Renegades and Separatists are pretty clear evidence that not everyone is on board.

The charr's culture functions the way it does because that's what it was designed to do. Cubs leave their parents when they're weaned to join the fahrar because that's most effective. They're brought up to believe their legion comes first because that's what makes an efficient soldier. They're indoctrinated to view their warband as their family because it strengthens the warband as a military unit. None of this is biological. It's a sociological. Both the Mongols -- and the Spartans, who the charr are also inspired by -- are human, even if their societies function in very different ways from each other... and from our own.

Present-day Mongols aren't conquerors. Circumstances have changed dramatically. The charr are experiencing a similar shift, and Rytlock is among the first to start questioning the way his culture does things. This doesn't mean he's going to go out and buy a baseball mitt and play catch with his cubs--but it does mean he's no longer shunning his impulse to be more involved in their lives. Historically, charr haven't been allowed to invest much in their young; that doesn't mean they wouldn't. The Olmakhan certainly do. And Rytlock has spent enough time with Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch that this sort of thing is no longer the taboo he was raised to believe.

Not everyone would agree with him, though. Bangar certainly wouldn't--because Rytlock's way of thinking is a threat to his authority. The way things currently work allows him to maintain his power (while putting others, like gladia, at a distinct disadvantage).

Again: Sociological, not biological. These things aren't fixed. They can and do change.

Gosh this is already much longer than I anticipated, and it's a really simplified view of everything that only scratches the surface of what's going on with the charr, but I hope it gives people an idea of where we're coming from when we make these sorts of choices--like with the Twine. At the end of the day, the charr aren't human, but the people writing them are--and so are the people playing them. We're not trying to make them exactly like us, but we have only human cultures to draw from. Which is a good thing, I think, because they're all so rich and varied.

You could make an MMO where all the cultures are based on chimpanzees or dolphins or ravens -- which are some of the most intelligent animals on our planet -- but without nuance or a human spin on them, it's probably not going to be very interesting.

[The disappointing story (Spoilers)]

@"Tazer.2157" said:There are so many problems with your statement. What you are suggesting is equivalent to a form of colonialism. Where one race decides whats best for the other race. This has happened in our history. I do not think GW2 needs to explore this side because it is complex, it needs time to be believable and it is very easy to mess up. The Charr have been bred for battle, they have killed, conquered and seen members of their warband fall. If change needs to happen, it should be the Charr that decide their fate. As a commander who is not a Charr and who only knows a single Charr, I should not be in a position to determine the future of the Charr. The sudden change in ones character is detrimental to the story and does not serve it. Game of thrones season 8 is a reminder that for change to happen, it cannot be done instantaneously.

Star trek is wonderful because of the diversity of the world and the stakes. In Star trek, no attempt was made to change the character of the Klingons. They were who they were. Every other way seemed alien to them the same way we humans perceive morality. I think the devs should follow a similar approach with the Charr. Keep the Charr unique and let them remain the ruthless, warmongering race they are. We do not need humans 2.0 in GW2 where everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya. One big happy family with the commander at the helm. That honestly makes the commander Emperor Palpatine.

When you say "their entire civilization is broken" you are looking at it from the perspective of a human. Our norms of what a civilization should be is due to our history, our religious beliefs and our culture. We cannot expect the Charr to have the same ideals as we do. That is impossible.

Having races that live by different ideals makes the world diverse. It is not diverse if everyone shares the same thought. The Olmakhan are special because they chose a different way of life from their Charr counterparts. Are we to judge which side is right and wrong? Is the commander now a supreme being who decides what the rules are? Again these can be explored but if they are, there are always two sides to the story and both must be given equal opportunity and the ultimate decision must be left to the player, not the writers. But a story like that is best suited for single player games and not a mmorpg.I am going to stop this before it goes further

1. There is absolutely nothing colonialist about the Charr realizing their society is broken, and at least one of them trying to fix it. Colonialism would require an outside force coming in and making them change, this is purely an internal matter. The commander is making none of these changes, Crecia is.

2. You are fundamentally wrong about the Klingons in Star Trek. In fact, its a pretty big point throughout The Next Generation and Deep Space 9 that the Klingon Empire is broken, and corrupt, and needs to change. Throughout both shows these corrupt elements are exposed and cut out, and it all comes to a head in Depp Space 9 when Ezri Dax tells Worf that the Klingon Empire is dying, and she believes it deserves to die, due to how corrupt it is, pointing out that Worf is the most honorable Klingon she knows, and even he just sits by and lets the corruption fester. This leads to Worf challenging the leader of the Klingon Empire, Gowron, and killing him in battle, and then handing the leadership of the Empire to the Klingon Martok, one of the few truly honorable Klingons, with the show heavily suggesting that Martok will lead the Klingons into a new age of actual honor, and cast aside the blood lust that has ruled Klingons since the Enterprise era. These sorts of large scale changes happen to not only the Klingons, but also the Cardassians, Ferengi, and Dominion. All of them start off with vastly different cultures then they end up with, and what they end up with is something closer to Federation(human) ideals, because all of their societies were shown to be broken as they were, and eventually it just broke down and change was forced. Hell, we know that the Klingons move so close to human ideals that they end up joining the Federation outright sometime in the future.

3. It doesn't matter how Charr civilization developed, there are basic ideals of unalienable rights that are fundamentally intrinsic to all life. That Charr society allows people like Bangar, and Smodur, to exist, and allows them to throw away these intrinsic rights, means their society is broken, and we are seeing the result of that now. It should not be acceptable no matter the perspective,. Its telling that, in situations like those regarding children and fahrars, even after centuries of separating children from their parents to be put into the fahrars, and being told that you shouldn't really care or look up on your children, that we know MANY MANY Charr do, because even they are, at least subconsciously, aware that the entire system is dumb and broken to begin with. They are just so Stockholm Syndromed into accepting it few do anything about it. I honestly expect that, maybe not within the timeframe of GW2, but at some point in the future, everything that happens in this arc will lead to the breakdown and dismantling of Charr society as we know it currently because it simply cannot hold as is.

4. The Olmakhan split off to escape the brutal persecution and discrimination of the Flame Legion they came from. The game makes no effort to show the side as anything other then black and white, because the situation was just that. The Flame Legion at the time was indisputably bad, and the Olmakhan left because they couldn't stand it, and are good for it.

[The disappointing story (Spoilers)]

@"Tazer.2157" said:In doing so the Char are made to look like fools who have no idea what they are doing, a race that cannot be self deterministic and only Crecia the savior knows whats best for them.Here's the thing, the Charr DON'T have any idea what they are doing.

The Charr have all the same problems the Klingons form Star Trek do, in that they are a race dedicated solely to war and violence, but war and violence are only a means to an end, not an end themselves. But the Charr, like the Klingons, have no sort of idea or plan for once that end is reached. Because of this, even if the Charr manage to take over the whole world, they will still need to keep their war machine going, and will inevitably turn on themselves, and consume themselves in that same war... which is pretty much what is happening right now.

As has been said, the Charr have always had enemies... but what do they do once they don't? They turn on themselves. The ghosts aren't a major problem anymore, the Flame Legion has been defeated, and re-assimilated, there is peace with the humans, and three of the Elder Dragons are dead, including the one that was giving them the most trouble. And now, left absent a major enemy, the Charr society begins its collapse in on itself via infighting.

What we are seeing now is the Charr's "Undiscovered Country" moment, where the Charr have to realize their entire civilization is fundamentally broken as is, and that things have to change if they want to survive. Crecia is basically the Charr's Gorkon, the leader who is willing to go against the norms to fix things, while Bangar and Smodur are the Charr's General Changs, the guys who want things to be the way they were, even if its obviously stupidly bad for them.

Its really no different then the Norn's problem of caring about the "individual" to the point they basically lack a society, something even the Spirits of the Wild noticed and led them south so they wouldn't all die trying to take Jormag on one at a time. Or the Asura's egotism being so massive that their civilization basically spins its wheels in the mud all the time since 90% of what they invent is lost because no one is willing to share. Non-human civilization in fantasy and scifi exist to take on aspect of humanity, and personify it to the extreme, to point out the obvious flaws in such a society. This is true of Elves and Dwarfs in fantasy settings, to the Klingons and Romulans in scifi like Star Trek.

[Depths of Tyria Map]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Given how GW2's maps works, any battle with Primordus cannot occur where a map already exists due to the layering situation... and we're filling up on Tyrian maps.This has always left me somewhat puzzled at to where Anet will end up putting the Primordus maps. Unless its the upper part of the Mzguma region north of the Forsaken Thicket.

[Braham gave in + the Norn are being deceived]

@Poormany.4507 said:The Boneskinner footprints outside of Bangar's office do seem to point to Jormag having at least some kind of influence over Bangar. Even if it was just Jormag planting the idea of being tamable into Bangar to set the latter's plan to go to Jormag in action, which is what I suspect happened. I think the storm was just Jormag playing both Bangar and the PC to act synchronously according to its plans and be where Jormag wants them to be at the right time. I do think Jormag's carefully planned everything that's happened so far in the Saga, possibly even his Whisper getting killed to get Bangar and the PC at the same place at the same time.I could see Jormag setting this up.

Making it to where Bangar gets the final kill on the Whisper allows Bangar to claim the victory over the dragon champion, and get more Charr on his side(as we hear has happened already), this in turn makes Bangar's rebellion stronger, causing fracturing within the ranks of the Charr, who have served as the military backbone of the Pact's armies thus far.

In a perfect scenario, this rebellion could collapse Charr society entirely, removing them from the equation in term of forces Jormag and his Icebrood have to combat. Even if it doesn't(which it wont because the player will save the day) this still causes a massive disruption among Charr society, a lot of wasted resources, and a fracturing of the combined might of the Charr which is likely to last awhile, again, weakening the position that stands before him.

To make it better, Jormag could theoretically just make another Whisper, slap it into another minion, and get back the mental subversion machine he had with Drakkar.