Haseno.6417

I don't care about the opinions of any "local fight guild" and their path of least resistance. I only care about combat being designed in a manner in which there's a fairly effective counter to zerging/blobbing. As I don't believe certain playstyles and methodologies should be absent of a counter. Because that would be broken game design.

You don't take away peoples weapons in the real world to prevent harm by bad people. You don't take away peoples counter to zergs in MMORPG's due to the risk of zergs using the same weapons. Your argument translated is "we can't allow such abilities in the game because the zergs might use it against others. Even though allowing it in the game would give people greater success in countering zergs."

I don't mind large scale fights. I do mind game content being reduced to "most population wins." The purpose of my post is to point this out, and to suggest a solution, by giving players tools to overcome zergs and blobs. Balance is achieved when strength in numbers is not the defining characteristic to the vast majority of victorious fights. Small Scale/Arena/sPVP is boring. I'm an oldschool DAoC player for a reason. I know what good pvp is, and isn't. You wouldn't have any comprehension of what balance is. Don't try to frame the goalposts of the debate. You won't win a debate against someone like me by doing so. I take your dismissive attitude, and shove it, where it belongs. I'm going to insist crowd control is stronger in this game, and every MMORPG with WvW/RvR/Large-Scale Combat. Technically strength isn't even the correct word for it. A better word is "effective" CC. The game can have numerous snares, stuns, and more. But, this does not mean the CC is designed in a manner to act as a counter to busting zergs. The current CC in the game clearly does not act as a counter to zergs and blobs. I did not state an opinion by suggesting crowd control must be better implemented to counter zergs in GW2's WvW. That is a cold-hard fact. That is the purpose, and the very logic, behind crowd control. To control a crowd, in order to reduce a threat and turn the tides of a fight. GW2 is plagued by zerg/blob playstyles, and has been a consistent burden and bane to the success of WvW for GW2. The game lacks proper CC to reliably and efficiently counter that playstyle, which is a fact. By definition, the absence of balance. Balance is a relative term. Ensuring tools exist to counter abilities is one thing, but one aspect to balance is that counters must exist to counter entire playstyles. Because if a playstyle does not have a counter, then it is by definition, not balanced. Do you folks honestly think I would bother wasting my time making this thread If I didn't know what I'm talking about?

While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days. First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata. Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start. Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off. For anyone who has never experienced this:It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights. I also look fondly back at my DAoC days. No, it's not simply a matter of nostalgia. The crowd control is what made DAoC's large scale RvR excel above every other MMORPG that has tried it. It single handedly was able to turn entire fights around when players used it effectively. When you didn't execute your crowd control effectively, you had to work much harder to win (especially against zergs). DAoC was the only large scale RvR game of its time. Let's not give credit where none is due. Most haven't tried. I'd argue that Warhammer Online did, but was shut down due to high IP costs. DAoC only continues to exist because it costs nothing to keep those servers up. As far as necessary:As mentioned, there are groups of players who can easily kill enemy blobs 1v2 or 1v3. It's a matter of skill difference. My WvW guild reaches that critical mass around 25 players (which is rare for us, we are often sub 20, occasionally 20-25). We have very little issue with full zones unless the blob has a fight guild core or a mix of guild players supporting them. The same goes for other fight guilds and some of them are even stronger than us. Giving a smaller group the ability to win does not have to be done via crowd control. In fact in the past when necromancer shades had a higher target cap, it was even easier to fight against larger numbers. The only thing which is needed is the ability for the smaller group to reduce the effective size of the larger group. This can be done via cc or by just putting a majority of players into downstate, or via fast movement to dodge enemy damage. The only thing sound is that an ability to gap a numeric disadvantage is needed. Not that this must be achieved via crowd control. There is a reason there hasn't been a DAoC 2.0 so far.While true DAoC was the only large-scale RvR game of its time. This does not discredit its success, nor the fact that for being the first of its kind, no MMORPG since then has been able to recreate large-scale PVP as memorable or as effective as DAoC. Not even Mythic Entertainment was able to recreate it with Warhammer Online. Warhammer Online failed for many reasons, and one of those was that the combat still didn't compare to DAoC RvR. There's a reason DAoC consistently won awards for "Best PVP" for nearly 2 decades after launch. That is not a sign of nostalgia, but rather, brilliant game design. We will have to disagree on this. I played up to rank 65 (when rank was capped at 80) and combat was NOT the main gripe people had with the game. It was probably one of its only redeeming features. That is subjective though and one can disagree. Sure it is the case. All the time. If players are skilled enough, they can win against an overwhelming numbers disadvantage. If not, well then they can't. I can't speak for ESO since I haven't played that game long or far enough. You suggestion does not change this. It merely reduces the required "skill" aspect down to 1 element: who gets his long time cc out first. That doesn't change player skill necessity for the entire group. It simply changes it for the select few players who have to cc. You have not supported this in any way. Again: one of the main grievances players have is with loss of control. You would have to make an argument that say more damage has more of a negative impact on the perception than loss of control. I'd even go so far: unbalancing the game in order to achieve this goal might still be more deisrable from a player enjoyment perspective than introducing long time crowd control. This is not about balance. If it was, there would be 0 possibility for certain numeric advantages to have remotely the ability to compete. If the entire skill and balance aspect is reduced to who presses his cc first, I'd say balance and skill requirements are out the window. I was rank 80 in Warhammer. I was Realm Rank 12 in DAoC. I have vast experience in both. Warhammer Online was subpar in comparison to DAoC when in regards to its PVP. By today's standards of MMORPG game design. Warhammer Online would be a blessing with what we have to play today. But, Warhammer was never the successor to DAoC. Mismanagement plagued Warhammer mostly, but combat still couldn't compare. Not to suggest that combat in Warhammer Online was bad, but, it just didn't have the same captivation that DAoC did. Per the results, many people left Warhammer and went back to DAoC. There is always some element of subjectivity, but, judging by the results of which game stayed relevant and maintained the winning of awards. I judge per the results. I have never denied skill being a factor. I've played GW2, ESO, DAoC, Warhammer, and every large-scale PVP combat I can think of in an MMORPG. Skill is a factor. But, proper and effective crowd control is still the built-in game mechanic necessary to counter large zergs. Large Zergs are Large Crowds, and the counter to large crowds is crowd control. I haven't shifted my position on that matter in years, and likely never will. I believe there should be built-in game mechanics necessary to counter zergs and I believe strong, proper, and effective crowd control has always been the built-in solution. It's supported by the history of MMORPG game design. Numerous games have made the mistake of over-buffing damage, or healing, to compensate for a lack of crowd control. Then it simply becomes a matter of a DPS race. Rather than a fight of warfare and counter-warfare. Crowd Control is a necessary evil in any MMORPG. Every MMORPG with PVP has crowd control. Every PVE-centric MMORPG still has crowd control. How it is implemented and designed to synergize with a game's combat matters greatly. The reason people have despised zerging/blobbing in GW2 since its creation is due to crowd control not having a good design. In-fact, healing and crowd control in GW2 are poorly designed around because it tried to avoid "roles" often ascribed to the holy trinity. Which of course, crowd control originally was part of the holy trinity itself.

That where an example on what a coordinated grp could do ( not many could do this as it took alot of skill to do as a multi boxer and bad enemies) The point here where that smaler grps had the tools to kill big grps if skilled and coordinated.Smaller groups already has the tools to do that in GW2. You want to know why it doesnt work in a similar fashion? Boons. Tons and tons of boons. We already saw what happened when this "fail" due to cc/stability redesign years back and lo and behold, zergs where locked down and the pirateship meta was born. And incidently, people hated it so much that Anet buffed stability through the roof and made zergs practically un-CCable. And people loved it. And well, rally doesnt help either. if it does not work then smaler grps dont have the "tools " to do it .it is pure logic . Have seen youre post for years and you seam to have a agenda of shuting down any changes to this game modeNo I'm just here pointing out the obvious. There is tons of CC in GW2 for every class. They have the tools. The tools just doesnt work because of how zergs today have 5+ constant stab stacks. Remember when a single guard line could stop a zerg dead in its tracks? Pepperidge farm remembers."Tons of CC" is not proof of the tools being in existence. Proper CC would be proof of it being in existence. So long as CC is a non-factor in dealing with large-scale zergs. Zergs will continue to be the bane to WvW.

While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days. First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata. Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start. Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off. For anyone who has never experienced this:It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights. I also look fondly back at my DAoC days. No, it's not simply a matter of nostalgia. The crowd control is what made DAoC's large scale RvR excel above every other MMORPG that has tried it. It single handedly was able to turn entire fights around when players used it effectively. When you didn't execute your crowd control effectively, you had to work much harder to win (especially against zergs). DAoC was the only large scale RvR game of its time. Let's not give credit where none is due. Most haven't tried. I'd argue that Warhammer Online did, but was shut down due to high IP costs. DAoC only continues to exist because it costs nothing to keep those servers up. As far as necessary:As mentioned, there are groups of players who can easily kill enemy blobs 1v2 or 1v3. It's a matter of skill difference. My WvW guild reaches that critical mass around 25 players (which is rare for us, we are often sub 20, occasionally 20-25). We have very little issue with full zones unless the blob has a fight guild core or a mix of guild players supporting them. The same goes for other fight guilds and some of them are even stronger than us. Giving a smaller group the ability to win does not have to be done via crowd control. In fact in the past when necromancer shades had a higher target cap, it was even easier to fight against larger numbers. The only thing which is needed is the ability for the smaller group to reduce the effective size of the larger group. This can be done via cc or by just putting a majority of players into downstate, or via fast movement to dodge enemy damage. The only thing sound is that an ability to gap a numeric disadvantage is needed. Not that this must be achieved via crowd control. There is a reason there hasn't been a DAoC 2.0 so far.While true DAoC was the only large-scale RvR game of its time. This does not discredit its success, nor the fact that for being the first of its kind, no MMORPG since then has been able to recreate large-scale PVP as memorable or as effective as DAoC. Not even Mythic Entertainment was able to recreate it with Warhammer Online. Warhammer Online failed for many reasons, and one of those was that the combat still didn't compare to DAoC RvR. There's a reason DAoC consistently won awards for "Best PVP" for nearly 2 decades after launch. That is not a sign of nostalgia, but rather, brilliant game design. Skill does matter still, even in GW2. Yes, a skilled team is still capable of winning with overwhelming odds. This is true in any MMORPG. But, as a general rule, this is not the case when encountering zergs/blobs in GW2, ESO, or numerous other mmorpgs whom have attempted to mimic large-scale RvR combat. The absence of crowd control is directly responsible for this. That is the only way to to gap a numeric disadvantage, without breaking other elements of the game. Theoretically your statement of it not required to be crowd control is true. It could be done in other ways, but not without incredible buffs to healing/support or incredible buffs to burst damage. Which would break the combat in other ways, and is far less preferable a route than added crowd control. Crowd Control is and always will remain to be the solution. Hence the name "Crowd Control." Zergs being a problem in a game? Then a lack of crowd control is the cause. As Brad McQuaid, the original designer of Everquest stated. The Holy Trinity of MMORPG game design was never actually a holy trinity. Crowd Control was always the 4th addition to the Holy Trinity. He criticized game development which excluded it for a reason. The reason there hasn't been a DAoC 2.0 is because nobody has been able to recapture the magic which made it capable of winning 15+ Greatest PVP MMORPG awards. Still, to this day, the greatest PVP-Centric MMORPG of all time. Game development with lackluster crowd control in PVP is one of many reasons why.

No. TeamWizzy was a freak of nature back then. I only cited him as an example as to why crowd control is necessary for outnumbered players to have a chance of securing victory. DAoC, and people like TeamWizzy, are the very origin of the phrase "bomb group" in MMORPG PVP combat.

While I look very fondly back to my days with DAoC, probably more rose colored then I should, there are reasons balance has moved on from those days. First off, in your given scenario, how many players are having fun versus those getting "farmed"? That's a very tough balance to get right because no one likes to be a free loot pinata. Second, and this has been established over multiple MMORPGs, one of the main gripes players have, besides being stealth engaged, is loss of character control. The perception of not being able to have any hand in ones fate is very off-putting, no matter how high that chance might have actually been. Say you get jumped by 10 players, chances of escape are 0, if the player gets rooted, feared or stunned in place, the perception is again different than just getting run down. Even if the end result was predictable from the start. Finally, DAoC came out during a time when MMORPGs where in their baby shoes. The vast majority of players was incompetent, even more so than now. This was valid for all area of the game btw. Gaming has matured. There are guides, videos, exchange of knowledge on a constant basis. The reason those 8 man groups worked in DAoC was because they were a minority. An occasional blip of: "yeah, it's guild XYZ. They got us good". Distances and time to fight were far longer in DAoC than here. If implemented today in GW2, you would get a ton of guild groups roaming around (we already do have that and guilds destroying squads of players twice their group size) able to delete an entire map blob over and over. Net result: the other sides log off. For anyone who has never experienced this:It is not unusual, especially during reset time, that one or both weaker sides simply log off or just ppt and dodge if one sides dominates to much. Commanders of different servers already try to combat such situation via organizing fights in the EotM as to get in some good rounds of squad vs squad fights. I also look fondly back at my DAoC days. No, it's not simply a matter of nostalgia. The crowd control is what made DAoC's large scale RvR excel above every other MMORPG that has tried it. It single handedly was able to turn entire fights around when players used it effectively. When you didn't execute your crowd control effectively, you had to work much harder to win (especially against zergs). Yes, people hate "losing character control." But, it's also a necessary combat feature of MMORPG combat in order for groups to reliably take down overwhelming odds of players. No MMORPG, and no MMORPG developer has successfully been able to recreate the excellence of DAoC RvR. The crowd control is exclusively one of the reasons why. Does it have to be to the extent of DAoC? No, DAoC's crowd control was incredibly long per duration. Their Realm Rank system also helped alleviate that over time, by access to Determination which reduced CC timers, or Purge which removed Mezz/Stun on a timer. This was well-executed from the developer side and was a success per the results for the game in totality. Does it need to be a straight up copy of DAoC? No. But, the philosophy behind it is sound logic. There's a reason why tens of thousands of players across the MMORPG-Universe have consistently said a DAoC 2.0 is needed.

That where an example on what a coordinated grp could do ( not many could do this as it took alot of skill to do as a multi boxer and bad enemies) The point here where that smaler grps had the tools to kill big grps if skilled and coordinated.Smaller groups already has the tools to do that in GW2. You want to know why it doesnt work in a similar fashion? Boons. Tons and tons of boons. We already saw what happened when this "fail" due to cc/stability redesign years back and lo and behold, zergs where locked down and the pirateship meta was born. And incidently, people hated it so much that Anet buffed stability through the roof and made zergs practically un-CCable. And people loved it. And well, rally doesnt help either.Boons exist in GW2. Concentration Buffs existed in DAoC. The amount of buffs you had in DAoC did not matter, and would not matter in GW2. Crowd Control is what made DAoC RVR excel above all the other MMORPG's and their large-scale PVP combat.

I haven't played the game in a while. I'm reinstalling as I speak as I type this. I've been MMORPG homeless for a while. I always eventually come back to games to check out the state of the game. I check out the forums to get a general comprehension of the state of the game as well. The issues in WvW, are not exclusive to games like GW2. Most MMORPG's fail to address the issues in their large scale PVP combat. ESO is an example, GW2 is also an example. While there is niche issues such as siege issues or general profession/class issues. Most people will complain about combat itself in large scale-combat. The #1 complaint always ends up being zergs, or in GW2, they're referred to as blobs. Blobs/zergs are annoying, and reward zero skill-gameplay. They crush smaller groups, solo players, and overwhelm in siege warfare. The same thing always happens in these MMORPG's. And you want to know why? Game Developers are too afraid to allow players to have powerful Crowd Control. That is the key to defeating zergs/blobs. In past games like Dark Age of Camelot, which is historic for its large-scale PVP/RVR gameplay, and has received more awards for their RVR than many present MMORPG's. Players in that game could be a smaller group and overwhelm zergs. People would even build 8-man groups dedicated to zergbusting. It was only possible because the game developers allowed classes to possess powerful crowd control. Whereas, most gamers today will cry foul when experiencing such powerful crowd control. Gamers and game developers are their own worst enemy in this regard. "Balance" is a relative term in gaming. One player may look at such powerful crowd control as game breaking. But, as part of that double-edged sword. That powerful crowd control is a necessary tool to allow one dynamic of combat to be put in check. Specifically, that dynamic being zergs/blobs. Smaller groups having the means to overcome overwhelming odds is balance in large-scale PVP/RVR/WVW. In DAoC, those smaller groups had to get the element of surprise or be fortunate enough to get their crowd control off first in order to overcome a zerg. But, because it was possible, it allowed such balance to occur. Zergs could still wipe out smaller groups. But, smaller groups had the means to fight back. You lack that in GW2, ESO, and many more MMORPGS. As a result, who brings overwhelming numbers is generally the winner and it becomes a DPS race to zero rather than a fight of skill, tactics, playstyle, or group composition. They run afoul because you lack the crowd control as a means of counter-warfare. In DAoC, a pac healer would drop an AOE Mezz on a zerg, then an AoE stun. Then the casters would PBAOE the zergs down. You can watch oldschool DAoC videos of groups like FUN II beating entire zergs as an 8-man team. You can watch famous DAoC groups like Team-Wizzy, who was literally 1 guy boxing multiple accounts with PBAOE Ice Wizards and 2 additional players to heal and provide minstrel speed. They would down entire zergs, and crowd control was the key to doing so. It obviously had to be executed correctly, but, it was the pinnacle of large-scale RVR balance. WvW/RvR should not be a battle of "the most numbers wins." Smaller groups should be provided the toolkit necessary to overcome the odds. WvW will not be fixed until THAT is a reality. Good luck doing that in GW2 and most modern mmorpg's. You aren't given the toolkit to make that a reality. And yet, DAoC had the best large-scale PVP combat of all time and won the most awards consistently for nearly 2 decades to prove it.

Seems cool but kinda random! I dunno how much effort ArenaNet will put into balancing something like turrets. Random isnt necessarily bad. The problem with core engi is that the skills dont synergize. Stationary PVP combat using turrets isnt sensible and tower/keep humping doesnt work with all the ranged AOE. Turrets are a complete no go in 90% of pvp situations. At least with this turret backpack turrets have a balanced form of mobility.

For turrets id recommend a major trait in the inventions line which allows you to wear a Turrent on your back like a kit but only one at a time. Summoning a 2nd turret detonates the one on your back and equips the new one. Equipping a kit while a turret is on your back grants you stability and detonates the turret on your back.

Staff for sure. Staff #1: Lightning Rod (800 range) Channeled (3s) single target attack which shocks the enemy per second for 500 damage with a stream of electricity. At the end of the channel a small explosion occurs dealing 800 explosion damage as well as inflicting vulnerability and cripple for 4s on up to 5 nearby enemies within 100 units of target. Staff #2: Arcing Cleave (Cone AOE) - Swing your staff from right to left dealing 1000 damage on up to 5 enemies within 200 units. Any allies within the radius are healed for 3000 and granted a 5 stack of might which lasts 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown. Staff #3: Pole Vault (300 range) - Use your staff to pole vault into the air 300 units ahead. Upon landing, grant resistance, swiftness, protection, and fury onto yourself and up to 5 nearby allies for 6 seconds. 8 second cooldown. Combo Finisher: Leap Staff #4: To The Touch - Cast an electrifying field on yourself for 5 seconds which applies Weakness to any enemy that hits you for 5 seconds and reduces incoming damage by 15% for the duration. At the end of the duration, the electrical field explodes violently dealing 1500 explosion damage within 400 units on up to 10 enemies as well as stunning them for 1.5 seconds. 20 second cooldown Staff #5 Tesla Coil (400 units) - Stick your staff in the ground at your location for 10 seconds, granting vigor per tick, and curing 1 condition every 2 seconds to all allies within 400 units. All enemies within 400 units are zapped for 500 damage per tick. All other staff skills are disabled while this skill is active. Activate the skill again to end the effect at will. Utility, Healing,Toolbelt, and Elite skills can still be used at this time. 25 second cooldown. Combo Field: Water