Teamkiller.4315

No? Forget? You expected me to take on the burden of proof. Nah, you made the claim. There's a name for something "irrelevant". You could just call it 'irrelevant', or you could call it a red herring. It is not however, a non-sequitur. Again, you have demonstrated that you don't know the definitions of the logical fallacies you're accusing people of. I read the thread, Team, he got ya. I mean it’s literally the definition and above post showed that. You also said that you just have these arguments out of spite. I see, it's a common mistake to make. Non-sequitur and red herring are not the same thing. He is thinking of a red herring when he says it's simply "irrelevant", and he is thinking of a strawman when he thinks i'm not reading his posts. What they aren't is a non-sequitur. That is when you draw a conclusion from a premise that "doesn't follow" (literal definition), i.e. just doesn't make sense. I mean this is what this thread has come down to now and I’m guilty for it as well. It’s not a discussion regarding raids anymore. It’s a forum post about arguments and picking crap apart that at the end of the day, mean nothing.You're right about that and I share the blame, but i would like to point out the irony that it was Ohoni that started this whole accusing people of logical fallacies trend. And he wasn't even doing it correctly.

No? Forget? You expected me to take on the burden of proof. Nah, you made the claim. There's a name for something "irrelevant". You could just call it 'irrelevant', or you could call it a red herring. It is not however, a non-sequitur. Again, you have demonstrated that you don't know the definitions of the logical fallacies you're accusing people of. I read the thread, Team, he got ya. I mean it’s literally the definition and above post showed that. You also said that you just have these arguments out of spite.I see, it's a common mistake to make. Non-sequitur and red herring are not the same thing. He is thinking of a red herring when he says it's simply "irrelevant", and he is thinking of a strawman when he thinks i'm not reading his posts. What they aren't is a non-sequitur. That is when you draw a conclusion from a premise that "doesn't follow" (literal definition), i.e. just doesn't make sense.

No? Forget? You expected me to take on the burden of proof. Nah, you made the claim. There's a name for something "irrelevant". You could just call it 'irrelevant', or you could call it a red herring. It is not however, a non-sequitur. Again, you have demonstrated that you don't know the definitions of the logical fallacies you're accusing people of.

You made a claim and then expected to not have to prove it. How the heck is mentioning burden of proof a non-sequitur? Even if it was irrelevant, how the heck would it be a non-sequitur? Do you know what non-sequitur means?

Ohoni you have demonstrated that you don't actually know what a non-sequiter is. The logical fallacy you are thinking of now is a strawman, it's not the same thing, and I didn't commit either.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around. Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative. The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less quantity of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable path toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on. Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around. Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better. It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate. So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said? You didn't bring anything. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works. But I do know how a non-sequitur works, so I see what you did there. I would've hoped you'd have learned by now that flailing in the dark accusing people of random logical fallacies you don't actually know isn't a good idea. I suppose I was wrong

So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said? You didn't bring anything. ¯_(ツ)_/¯Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works.

So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said?

At this point, it is partially out of spite. Hard to say exactly how much, wouldn't say over 50% though. I have no idea how you interpreted my "you're exaggerating" message as "raiders are better than non-raiders".

Well you see you claimed that there was no reason. What you were probably planning for is me giving a reason why raiders deserve exclusive rewards and you arguing against it and both of us descending back into madness where you try to beat people with your verbosity (doesn't work btw). But what's actually going to probably happen is I'm going to stick that phrase you wrote "There is NO REASON why they [raiders] should have exclusive access to ANYTHING." to you and force you to defend it and my prediction is you will eventually stop responding after evading it for a while.

Well yes, that was never a point in dispute. What was in dispute was whether that actually mattered. It's impossible to argue as to whether or not it's raining outside, either it is or it isn't. What is worth considering is how much it matters whether it is raining or not. Sure, you can continue to pretend like you weren't offended by someone else describing your own actions and just had to respond for the sake of responding. So it's not that there is no good reason or no reasonable reason, but rather there is no reason that people who raid should get exclusive rewards? Think carefully about that statement.

Well there you go, thanks for confirming what I said. I don't see why you're taking this as a challenge, big guy. You made an exceptionally exaggerated statement and I was wondering legitimately if you wanted to tone it down. If not that's fine, just remember you said "There is no reason why they [raiders] should have exclusive access to anything."

The difference being: the game was under development back then. But this is an MMO. It is always under development. I just think that random spot polling would do a bgood job of providing them strong feedback. You pointed to places where they made changes to the game in response to feedback, but even in those cases they sometimes made changes in a poor direction, because they didn't get an accurate measurement of what the community wanted, all they seemed to get was "angry" and "not this!" And that only seems "absurd" to people that are used to getting their own way and feel entitled to having unique benefits just for playing the game in the way they happen to enjoy. Making the skins available via easy mode is actually the most reasonable outcome. Everyone has stuff in the game they either want, but don't feel like doing the work required and choose not to get it and focus elsewhere, or grit their teeth and worked through it. It's not just nonraider and legendary armor in that situation. Sure. But is that a good thing? Does anyone benefit by having things that they want, but that the method of acquiring it would not make them happy? This is a game, if you aren't having fun them something has gone dreadfully wrong. There is no virtue in people "doing what they need to do, even if they don't enjoy it," because the only thing anyone needs to do is enjoy themselves. If players are presented with only the options "do a thing that you don't enjoy" or "never get that thing you wanted," then that's a choice without any good options. Nobody benefits from that choice. I am opposed to any situation where that option is forced. I believe that if any player enjoys most of how the game works, then all aspects of the game should be available in a form that they would enjoy. The only people who shouldn't be able to find a path to their goals that suits their playstyle would be players who don't enjoy the game at all, in which case, why would they even be here? I think at this point part of the reason why I oppose you, a significant part actually, is due to how incredibly aggravating your arguments are and seeing you unsatisfied and not obtaining envoy armor is satisfying to me. I think a significant portion of the people in this thread probably share my sentiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well Nah you have straight up said on multiple occasions you won't compromise on those two points. Unless you'd like to tell me you've changed your mind. Not going to respond to this point any more than this due to extreme pedantry. Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

So what? Don't you have enough other junk like Unique Weapon, Armor and Back skins, along with titles, miniatures and whatever (not sure all the unique things that Raids offer, TBH) to placate your need for things to display and flaunt your accomplishments? I mean really.. how much do you need? If the answer is Everything.. then that is why Anet made a mistake going in this direction to start with. Actually i have no legendaries at all, my best skin is eidolan (shield), and my most worn titles by far are dungeon master and champion paragon. Ok.. so why the issue? I mean.. legit. I do not get this.. if the people that are doing raids are not parading out all the bells and whistles banging their Raid Exclusive Drum as it were, saying look at me and what I can do . why should they care if someone like @Ohoni.6057 can get a skin from a really ugly set of armor, that they also would not wear? For a similar reason that if you were in a tournament of some kind that you would want first place to get a better rewards than second place. Well I'm actually not so sure about you specifically now. From what he's said over the past few pages, I gather that he got burned in wow raiding and came to gw2 to get away from it, and now feels betrayed over the fact that anet introduced raids, and wants them gone asap.But that makes no sense considering wow has easy mode raids

So what? Don't you have enough other junk like Unique Weapon, Armor and Back skins, along with titles, miniatures and whatever (not sure all the unique things that Raids offer, TBH) to placate your need for things to display and flaunt your accomplishments? I mean really.. how much do you need? If the answer is Everything.. then that is why Anet made a mistake going in this direction to start with. Actually i have no legendaries at all, my best skin is eidolan (shield), and my most worn titles by far are dungeon master and champion paragon. Ok.. so why the issue? I mean.. legit. I do not get this.. if the people that are doing raids are not parading out all the bells and whistles banging their Raid Exclusive Drum as it were, saying look at me and what I can do . why should they care if someone like @Ohoni.6057 can get a skin from a really ugly set of armor, that they also would not wear? For a similar reason that if you were in a tournament of some kind that you would want first place to get a better rewards than second place. Well I'm actually not so sure about you specifically now.

So what? Don't you have enough other junk like Unique Weapon, Armor and Back skins, along with titles, miniatures and whatever (not sure all the unique things that Raids offer, TBH) to placate your need for things to display and flaunt your accomplishments? I mean really.. how much do you need? If the answer is Everything.. then that is why Anet made a mistake going in this direction to start with. Actually i have no legendaries at all, my best skin is eidolan (shield), and my most worn titles by far are dungeon master and champion paragon. In other words, not earned by doing end game content. I'm not the correct person to attack. And also, the core problem is his refusal to accept the concept of exclusive rewards for completing different content.

It's not unreasonable to want to have a different mode for different types of players. I think Ohoni might not be as irritated about the armor if there were other options and other types of Legendary Armor (equally epic) that they could get without having to go into the raiding. If there was a training mode, I might give raiding a try (as I said previously) but I'm not going to spend 4 hours wiping with zero feedback from the encounter when I could just go and play WvW with 100% instant feedback. @Ferelwing.8463 said: It's not unreasonable to want to have a different mode for different types of players. I think Ohoni might not be as irritated about the armor if there were other options and other types of Legendary Armor (equally epic) that they could get without having to go into the raiding. If there was a training mode, I might give raiding a try (as I said previously) but I'm not going to spend 4 hours wiping with zero feedback from the encounter when I could just go and play WvW with 100% instant feedback. No he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode. That's the thing. It's not about an open world legendary armor or whatever, it's about specifically having envoy come out of easy mode. He wont budge on this point.

Stihl, the reason why so many people think Ohoni's proposal is absurd is because he specifically wants envoy armor out of easy mode

So once again it just boils down to the shinies.Isn't that what this thread has been about since almost the very beginning? People who want the shinies but don't want to put in any effort? I really have to applaud people like Feanor who somehow possess the patience to constantly refute all the falsehoods that are spread here again and again. At that rate, I would have gone mad long ago. So what you are saying essentially is "I have these toys because I wanted/had time to spend hours to get them but people who do not have the time/willingness/grindiness/find it less enjoyable etc" automatically are less than you because they don't want/enjoy spending that kind of time doing something but they would like to have an alternative way of getting "shinies" too but they are somehow less valid or less important than you? Interesting. I think there'd be a lot less complaining if there were other options that didn't involve other game modes. In fact, you wouldn't be having this argument if things weren't being constantly locked between various "modes" in the game. If you could get shinies other ways and with your own effort the argument wouldn't exist at all if it was truly about the shinies. Some of us just want to play and have fun, we don't want to miss out on the story but we also don't have the time/energy to put in hours upon hours on a video game. It's not a job, it's supposed to be fun and grinding IS NOT fun (well for quite a few of us).Getting acceptably good at raids from the skill level the average player is at does not take much longer if at all than making your first legendary. Not really sure if i see a huge issue honestly...

After you. That's not how burden of proof works. Exactly my point. Are you just responding without remembering what the discussion was about, so you can look like you're responding to everything? What you just said makes no sense. "I'd like to order some poutine please""After you""Wait what? That's not how ordering food works.""Exactly my point"

So Ohoni is advocating for people who are open world players who like instances content who are desperate to get envoy armor and want to experience raids but who are unwilling to self improve. He is basically advocating for only himself, 5g to whoever finds someone else that fits all those criteria.

So go ahead and grind it. Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy. I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k? Sure.. what scale would like.. I can get you a 1:24 pretty cheap. Got two of these. But unless you convince Ohoni to be happy with a screenshot of the UI icon of the Envoy instead of the actual set, your proposal doesn't really apply. Well see.. technically Ohoni just wants the skin.. not the Legendary Armor itself. So that would be like buying a Ferrari Kit.. which is around 10K As irony would have it, so, you could have your Ferrari for 10K , if you were willing to put it on some other car frame.. which Ohoni is willing to do. So.. what is your problem with letting them have that?Possibly because he is approaching it from a very holier-than-thou and entitled angle. If his approach was less ostentatious perhaps fewer people would be annoyed with his arguments and many would be more accomodating.

Judging by who made half the posts in this thread, and how they'd still post if it was a backpack, I doubt that it would've never reached the "levels" it got to now. And by "levels" I mean threads like this one. If you haven't noticed it's 5-6 people posting on the official forums about this subject over and over. There is no discussion about it on reddit, or any other media, this is an "issue" seen by a handful of people on the official forums and nothing more.A few of the people continue to post, but it's always new people that bring the case up, not the old ones (personally i haven't started a single thread about it). They just give up on arguing after few pages. And no, there was no such example for all the previous "exclusive skin" cases. You got one-two threads of complain, few pages tops, and then the topic dried out and never resurfaced. I seriously doubt Ohoni alone would change that. I do know that personally i would not have put so much energy in these discussions if raids were simply treated the same as other side contents, and legendary armor (and legendary-tier skin) was not an issue.I don't mean this in a negative way but arguing with him is fun in seeing his mental gymnastics

Yeah so you changed the goalposts, it's really simple. I entered the discussion debating the merits of that particular proposal; you don't dictate to me what I entered the discussion to debate. This rule: Was fabricated as a get-out-of-jail-free card to deflect any allegations of wrongdoing. Fabricate by the way, in this context, means making something up. Also, let's be honest here guy; you don't actually care about people who would like something more from current raids, you want to get envoy armor via de-facto world bosses.