Dragon's End Meta is Garbage

[Erise.5614]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

Yes, you explained it.
It is still a hilarious statement, and it very nicely puts into perspective the totality of your comments on this meta.

Serious question. Do you really think everything is fine in terms of game feedback and player education?

That people are just too lazy and the game should just add more obstacles that have a similar ramp up as past content?

In the critical path that most players will go through?

Do you really think lack of difficult obstacles is the only thing holding people back? 

[The Boz.2038]

Everything fine?
No. Have said so before. 
But this meta is *significantly* easier than, say, the top three HoT HPs, and is fairly light on the mechanics and performance needed, but you still think it's too steep, too sudden, and ill-suited to open world.

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Everything fine?
No. Have said so before. 
But this meta is *significantly* easier than, say, the top three HoT HPs, and is fairly light on the mechanics and performance needed, but you still think it's too steep, too sudden, and ill-suited to open world.

What are those issues? 

And how can pugs fail so consistently for over a month if it's so light and easy on necessary performance and mechanics? And how can those HPs succeed during HP runs with two handful of random, unskilled characters so consistently when they are harder? 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Ruisen.9471]

7 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

That's the problem though. I believe most people talking about repeated successful runs are using a specific method of getting into squads. Beyond just using LFG. Specific times, specific requirements, etc. Something to self select groups with other very experienced players.

Which means there's disproportionally few of them in more average pugs while there are more than usual people who are at low DPS.

And no. Auto attacks with poor gear, quickness, might, 25% damage bonus from pre-event can net you as low as 2k dps. Had a friend deal 1.2k. Asked them what's going on. Turns out they changed their build halfway to power support before taking a >1 year break while playing full condi and they never realized while swapping templates that this was the case. 

I'd agree with the gear swapping but it'd need a vendor or TP on the map for you to have any chance of convincing a relevant amount of people to do that. Leaving an organized map means you just won't get back and the last sliver of success chance is gone. 

Asking people to check their builds should always be done before Soo-Won, and also directing people to proper build websites like SC.   People might not be able to change their gear, but they can change their traits and utilities skills, and that makes a big difference.      Especially mechanist, since mechanist can do 25k DPS just by literally autoattacking, granted this is in zerker gear but even in random exotic gear you'd get much more DPS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRaEK4v5D48&t=20s

 

But I do concede, why they have a DPS check on an open world is beyond me.

[Ruisen.9471]

4 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Everything fine?
No. Have said so before. 
But this meta is *significantly* easier than, say, the top three HoT HPs, and is fairly light on the mechanics and performance needed, but you still think it's too steep, too sudden, and ill-suited to open world.

it isn't.  HoT HP's don't have DPS checks, and don't require you to pay attention in a zerg.

[The Boz.2038]

There is a level of opacity around the game mechanics. These are not the points anyone has raised in this thread previously.
PUGs fail so consistently because they 
a) approach the meta the way they approach Tequatl
b) have no interest in doing anything to their build or playstyle in order to adapt to any type of content
c) fall for the "I'm irrelevant" trap, which you yourself have invoked in this discussion at least three times so far
d) really don't feel like doing much more than 1-1-1-sometimes2-1 and vitality-toughness-tanking the bad

Two of the reasons have nothing to do with the game's willingness to allow you to learn how to "get better".

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Ruisen.9471 said:

it isn't.  HoT HP's don't have DPS checks, and don't require you to pay attention in a zerg.

They literally have DPS checks; they're timed, regen to full if they kill you, and will commonly one-shot you if you aren't paying attention. But hey, you brought up the zerg! A distinctly not-mechanical-skill solution to all the game's problems that you somehow learned was the swiss army knife for the game, and that magically doesn't work in this particular meta. 

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

There is a level of opacity around the game mechanics. These are not the points anyone has raised in this thread previously.
PUGs fail so consistently because they 
a) approach the meta the way they approach Tequatl
b) have no interest in doing anything to their build or playstyle in order to adapt to any type of content
c) fall for the "I'm irrelevant" trap, which you yourself have invoked in this discussion at least three times so far
d) really don't feel like doing much more than 1-1-1-sometimes2-1 and vitality-toughness-tanking the bad

Two of the reasons have nothing to do with the game's willingness to allow you to learn how to "get better".

a) Could you please explicitly spell out what you mean to avoid misunderstandings?

b) Some, maybe. But what about the people who genuinely don't understand the system and their performance? Believing they are doing fine?

c) The individual is insignificant. Not irrelevant. But meta DPS checks are a check against the general player base. I have given explicit examples too. Of 25 people from my raid guild very easily clearing it. And with me failing it ~18 times with as good a performance. In the screenshot I have provided I was top 2 at ~19k average dps. I am not irrelevant. I pull my weight two times over. And yet, I am not a significant factor for whether or not it succeeds. 

d) Do you have data on that? Is this factual? Can I see some references here? Because that sounds like a myth. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

They literally have DPS checks; they're timed, regen to full if they kill you, and will commonly one-shot you if you aren't paying attention. But hey, you brought up the zerg! A distinctly not-mechanical-skill solution to all the game's problems that you somehow learned was the swiss army knife for the game, and that magically doesn't work in this particular meta. 

That's a slightly weird argument, no?

Soo Won is a zerg. You don't solo metas!? And those HPs are explicitly designed around ~5-10 players participating. It even says so in game. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Erise.5614 said:

That's a slightly weird argument, no?

Soo Won is a zerg. You don't solo metas!? And those HPs are explicitly designed around ~5-10 players participating. It even says so in game. 

5-10 players is not a zerg. Soo Won requires 50 players, and is tuned that way, so that she isn't overwhelmed by The Zerg. You're really mixing your ideas here quite significantly.

[Mithrilos.8036]

I'm saying this again : for the Soo Won fight, the issue about the DPS check isn't the DPS of people in itself, like what number you provide, but how long do you provides those numbers.

 

Downed people doesn't DPS as well as hitting the wrong target. fix this and I'm sure people will succeed this meta way more easily.

I don't like to be pushed toward a specific gear, so I won't do that for others. But, if you run a squishy character in this kind of Fight, you have to take extra caution of not getting hit, it is more important than ever, because here : Speed is the essence, but also Consistency. 

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Mithrilos.8036 said:

Downed people doesn't DPS as well as hitting the wrong target. fix this and I'm sure people will succeed this meta way more easily.

People love to die and not respawn in metas. They've been doing it for a decade now. They're told not to at every step in every meta, yet they still do it. 

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

5-10 players is not a zerg. Soo Won requires 50 players, and is tuned that way, so that she isn't overwhelmed by The Zerg. You're really mixing your ideas here quite significantly.

But HP runs with 5 - 10 players have no issues killing those HPs either? Despite all being semi equipped, often non elite specs?

I've run those for my laid back guild ~40 times with varying group sizes. And it works fine if you play as intended by ANet.

Like, you're the one talking about soloing those HPs!?

[Mithrilos.8036]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

People love to die and not respawn in metas. They've been doing it for a decade now. They're told not to at every step in every meta, yet they still do it. 

Sure, but then we are hitting a wall here. Because trying to hit harder and harder while sacrificing everything else will not work here.

And for this I'm 100% sure.

EDIT: People are smart enough, they bring the Charr IEM to the fight for the CC phase. SO I still have hope that the community will learn progressively even while grumbling like we are doing now.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

People love to die and not respawn in metas. They've been doing it for a decade now. They're told not to at every step in every meta, yet they still do it. 

Would you like to watch my video and point out exactly how many people did that and what exactly went wrong to warrant a failure of the meta?

I'm having a suspiciously hard time finding them. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

7 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

a) Could you please explicitly spell out what you mean to avoid misunderstandings?

b) Some, maybe. But what about the people who genuinely don't understand the system and their performance? Believing they are doing fine?

c) The individual is insignificant. Not irrelevant. But meta DPS checks are a check against the general player base. I have given explicit examples too. Of 25 people from my raid guild very easily clearing it. And with me failing it ~18 times with as good a performance. In the screenshot I have provided I was top 2 at ~19k average dps. I am not irrelevant. I pull my weight two times over. And yet, I am not a significant factor for whether or not it succeeds. 

d) Do you have data on that? Is this factual? Can I see some references here? Because that sounds like a myth. 

a) Appear when event about to spawn, kill some mobs, do some damage to boss, collect reward, 12 total minutes of "effort"
b) What about all the other players I never mentioned, huh? What about them, huh? I never mentioned them, because they're not a significant cause of the meta failing. They are detectable and interventionable.
c) And here you go, falling for the same trap again. "Why bother, if fifty other players also need to bother? Better not to bother, maybe the other fifty will still bother, and carry me instead." This is a toxic mindset. You *have* to realize this.
d) Your video provides some nice examples of 1-enjoyers eating bad stoically.

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

But HP runs with 5 - 10 players have no issues killing those HPs either? Despite all being semi equipped, often non elite specs?

I've run those for my laid back guild ~40 times with varying group sizes. And it works fine if you play as intended by ANet.

Like, you're the one talking about soloing those HPs!?

You are precisely failing to get my point. The exact meaning was "if we can just get enough bodies in, we'll win eventually", and it fails here. And once it fails here, oh no, panic, The Strategy is not working, ANet must obviously fix this mistake because The Strategy is not working!

[Erise.5614]

12 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

a) Appear when event about to spawn, kill some mobs, do some damage to boss, collect reward, 12 total minutes of "effort"
b) What about all the other players I never mentioned, huh? What about them, huh? I never mentioned them, because they're not a significant cause of the meta failing. They are detectable and interventionable.
c) And here you go, falling for the same trap again. "Why bother, if fifty other players also need to bother? Better not to bother, maybe the other fifty will still bother, and carry me instead." This is a toxic mindset. You *have* to realize this.
d) Your video provides some nice examples of 1-enjoyers eating bad stoically.

a) Fair. And if the meta was only preventing that I'd be alright. But in my video we had ~40 people show up an hour ahead of time and remain until the end of the fight.

b) Also fair. But could you give us an estimate about percentages of the player you talk about? 

c) I bother every single time. I'm telling you that I'm pulling my weight every single time twice over and have very little impact on success rates.

d) Could you point out how exactly you reach that conclusion? 

10 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You are precisely failing to get my point. The exact meaning was "if we can just get enough bodies in, we'll win eventually", and it fails here. And once it fails here, oh no, panic, The Strategy is not working, ANet must obviously fix this mistake because The Strategy is not working!

I've done those runs with as little as 3 people total. Suboptimal builds, not full exotic gear. Are you saying all HPs are meant to be solo content?

Edit: It literally says group event. How small a group do you think ANet means here?

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

Never once have I mentioned soloing the HPs as the challenge I was referring to. But a 3-5 player group is, and the skill required to do, say, the TD Mushroom Queen is higher than what is needed to beat the DE meta.

[Mithrilos.8036]

10 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Would you like to watch my video and point out exactly how many people did that and what exactly went wrong to warrant a failure of the meta?

I'm having a suspiciously hard time finding them. 

I watched the video.

And what I can say is that your team dps slowed down after the 70% cap, there was confusion between tail and head target, as you noticed yourself, tail was up but people where hitting the head etc. around 29:20. Still a pretty nice run tho 🙂

[Geckoo.6018]

45 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

That's the problem though. I believe most people talking about repeated successful runs are using a specific method of getting into squads. Beyond just using LFG. Specific times, specific requirements, etc. Something to self select groups with other very experienced players.

Which means there's disproportionally few of them in more average pugs while there are more than usual people who are at low DPS.

Exactly.

This will sound arrogant, but coming from a raiding background i believe that i am above the average player in terms of skill and experience dealing with simple boss mechanics as well as measuring other player's performance. I know that if i want a successful run i need to join a specific type of squad almost 1 hour before the whole event starts. Maybe that squad is not asking for KP or any of that nonsense, but just the group finder description, a few interactions from the commander or playing a few events with some other players and i will know what type of squad i'm getting into.

This kind of filtering that we do ourselves means that less organized squads are left with other kind of players that are usually less skilled, and as i repeated many times, any successful meta, not just this one, is usually the result of a mixed variety of skills that balance each other out.

Player perception about the meta is playing a massive role here, the kind of healthy mixed squad you can find on almost any other meta will probably do fine with the whole fight, but that isn't happening because as a community we have already stablished how a good squad should look like and different type of players are not mixing up as much as they should for open world content.

 

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Never once have I mentioned soloing the HPs as the challenge I was referring to. But a 3-5 player group is, and the skill required to do, say, the TD Mushroom Queen is higher than what is needed to beat the DE meta.

Again. Cleared it with 3 people without a problem. Extremely consistently. PUG, guildies, default 80 boost equipment. Yet I find it impossible to do DE consistently and need to resort to my raid guild.

What am I missing here? 

[Mithrilos.8036]

2 minutes ago, Geckoo.6018 said:

Exactly.

This will sound arrogant, but coming from a raiding background i believe that i am above the average player in terms of skill and experience dealing with simple boss mechanics as well as measuring other player's performance. I know that if i want a successful run i need to join a specific type of squad almost 1 hour before the whole event starts. Maybe that squad is not asking for KP or any of that nonsense, but just the group finder description, a few interactions from the commander or playing a few events with some other players and i will know what type of squad i'm getting into.

This kind of filtering that we do ourselves means that less organized squads are left with other kind of players that are usually less skilled, and as i repeated many times, any successful meta, not just this one, is usually the result of a mixed variety of skills that balance each other out.

Player perception about the meta is playing a massive role here, the kind of healthy mixed squad you can find on almost any other meta will probably do fine with the whole fight, but that isn't happening because as a community we have already stablished how a good squad should look like and different type of players are not mixing up as much as they should for open world content.

 

 

Its on your own right, but OW Meta shouldn't ask such level of preparation, its lurking too much toward Raids lvl, with all the respect due of course.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036

[Mithrilos.8036]

Anet should keep the most difficult stuff, (which is important) in a way that its not mandatory for progression, but something that is researched by players and rewarded accordingly.

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, Geckoo.6018 said:

Exactly.

This will sound arrogant, but coming from a raiding background i believe that i am above the average player in terms of skill and experience dealing with simple boss mechanics as well as measuring other player's performance. I know that if i want a successful run i need to join a specific type of squad almost 1 hour before the whole event starts. Maybe that squad is not asking for KP or any of that nonsense, but just the group finder description, a few interactions from the commander or playing a few events with some other players and i will know what type of squad i'm getting into.

This kind of filtering that we do ourselves means that less organized squads are left with other kind of players that are usually less skilled, and as i repeated many times, any successful meta, not just this one, is usually the result of a mixed variety of skills that balance each other out.

Player perception about the meta is playing a massive role here, the kind of healthy mixed squad you can find on almost any other meta will probably do fine with the whole fight, but that isn't happening because as a community we have already stablished how a good squad should look like and different type of players are not mixing up as much as they should for open world content.

 

Would you please watch my video as well and tell me what's going wrong there?

It is exactly the type of squad you talk about. 1h prep. Removed from LFG (due to being full) ~50 minutes before pre events. 

What major mistakes were made here to warrant a failure and how can I avoid those with any degree of consistency?