LWS1 Restructure Predictions

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

So episode one was Flame and Frost, I think the next four will be:

2. Sky Pirates (including Theo's assassination, the Sky Pirate Dungeon scaled down into a story instance, some mention of Ellen Kiel becoming a captain and replacing Theo)

3. Clockwork Chaos (scarlet attacking Divinities Reach with clockwork knights, portal invasions, and Twisted Marionette.)

4. Toxic Alliances (Twilight Arbor Aetherpath, followed by Tower of Nightmares)

5. Attack on Lions Arch (invasion and reclamation of Lions arch)

 

Note: originally the twisted marionette came after the tower of nightmares and before the attack on Lions Arch, however given the lack of content in Clockwork Chaos without the Jubilee, and the fact that the Twisted Marionette is just one massive clockwork knight, it made sense to me to move the TM up and pair the two.

Edited April 22, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I'm imagining that they'll want to end every episode with a dungeon, and since some of them lacked dungeons originally a few like the Tower of Nightmares and Battle for Loin's Arch will likely be converted. Its really the only way to replicate the open-world feeling in the Personal Story instances.

 

I'm also expecting Thamanova Reactor Fractal to show up in Personal Story as its still a part of LWS1 and the Scarlet storyline, though it'll probably be reverted to the original version like the others.

 

Most likely we'll get an alternate version of The Battle for Lion's Arch in a Strike Mission.

[Fueki.4753]

5 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Most likely we'll get an alternate version of The Battle for Lion's Arch in a Strike Mission.

I think it's more likely that such a Strike Mission will only be the fight against the holographic Scarlet than the entire Battle for Lion's Arch.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

10 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I'm imagining that they'll want to end every episode with a dungeon, and since some of them lacked dungeons originally a few like the Tower of Nightmares and Battle for Loin's Arch will likely be converted. Its really the only way to replicate the open-world feeling in the Personal Story instances.

 

Most likely we'll get an alternate version of The Battle for Lion's Arch in a Strike Mission.

Rather than dungeons, i think something like Dragon Response Missions from the Icebrood Saga(instanced map copies capable of holding squad sized groups) would better replicate the open world feel, and give us a closer feeling to the original release of the Battle of Lions Arch.

As @Fueki.4753 said, the strike mission will probably be the final show down with Scarlet herself, not the entire battle.

Edited April 22, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

23 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

So episode one was Flame and Frost, I think the next four will be:

2. Sky Pirates (including Theo's assassination, the Sky Pirate Dungeon scaled down into a story instance, some mention of Ellen Kiel becoming a captain and replacing Theo)

3. Clockwork Chaos (scarlet attacking Divinities Reach with clockwork knights, portal invasions, and Twisted Marionette.)

4. Toxic Alliances (Twilight Arbor Aetherpath, followed by Tower of Nightmares)

5. Attack on Lions Arch (invasion and reclamation of Lions arch)

 

Note: originally the twisted marionette came after the tower of nightmares and before the attack on Lions Arch, however given the lack of content in Clockwork Chaos without the Jubilee, and the fact that the Twisted Marionette is just one massive clockwork knight, it made sense to me to move the TM up and pair the two.

Cut out Aetherpath (aside from a few open world mobs and achievements, it's all in-game still), and slap Edge of the Mists to the beginning of 5, and I'm in agreement.

 

2. Dragon Bash + Sky Pirates of Tyria. This combo cannot be skipped because it is the introduction of Mai Trin, which was stated to be one of the leading motivations for finally pushing Season 1 return live by Joe Kimmes in an interview with gamerant. It might include the election arc too, but I'm doubtful; if they do, I think they'll add the story version of Thaumanova fractal to the end here.

3. Queen's Jubilee + Clockwork Chaos. This also cannot be skipped because it is the introduction of Scarlet Briar, which Joe Kimmes said (same interview) this is what he's looking forward to the most being brought back. It's more a matter of "when" not "if" for these two.

4. Tower of Nightmares + The Nightmares Within + The Nightmare is Over (Wintersday 2013). Might also include the Kessex prelude stuff from Blood and Madness 2013. Hopefully they also include Belinda's presence in the open world.

5. Edge of the Mists + Escape from Lion's Arch + Battle for Lion's Arch + Battle for Lion's Arch: Aftermath. It's dubious if they'll add in The Origins of Madness (there's 1 story step + "attempt" Twisted Marionette), I can see it going both ways. Edge of the Mists added a bunch of story that's too important to skip IMO. Escape of LA could be skipped outside of the opening cinematic tbh, but I hope not. Battle for LA is already confirmed in some form, but what form is the question.

 

Honestly, it's pretty easy to predict how Episodes 2 and 3 will play out at this point. What's hard to predict is how ArenaNet will handle the Tower of Nightmares zone and the Escape from Lion's Arch and Battle for Lion's Arch 2 hour open world metas.

I could see them introducing them as two new instanced zones (ToN and attacked Lion's Arch), but in all honesty idk...

12 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Rather than dungeons, i think something like Dragon Response Missions from the Icebrood Saga(instanced map copies capable of holding squad sized groups) would better replicate the open world feel, and give us a closer feeling to the original release of the Battle of Lions Arch.

Agreed, but for EfLA/BfLA, the metas were 2 hour long IIRC (might've been 1?), so that'll be hard to pull off in DRM-style. Though the map was typically split in three event chains (north, south, and east), so I could see them splitting it into six "Scarlet Response Missions" and then having a seventh story/strike for the finale Prime Hologram battle.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Cut out Aetherpath (aside from a few open world mobs and achievements, it's all in-game still), and slap Edge of the Mists to the beginning of 5, and I'm in agreement.

2. Dragon Bash + Sky Pirates of Tyria. This combo cannot be skipped because it is the introduction of Mai Trin, which was stated to be one of the leading motivations for finally pushing Season 1 return live by Joe Kimmes in an interview with gamerant. It might include the election arc too, but I'm doubtful; if they do, I think they'll add the story version of Thaumanova fractal to the end here.

3. Queen's Jubilee + Clockwork Chaos. This also cannot be skipped because it is the introduction of Scarlet Briar, which Joe Kimmes said (same interview) this is what he's looking forward to the most being brought back. It's more a matter of "when" not "if" for these two.

4. Tower of Nightmares + The Nightmares Within + The Nightmare is Over (Wintersday 2013). Might also include the Kessex prelude stuff from Blood and Madness 2013. Hopefully they also include Belinda's presence in the open world.

5. Edge of the Mists + Escape from Lion's Arch + Battle for Lion's Arch + Battle for Lion's Arch: Aftermath. It's dubious if they'll add in The Origins of Madness (there's 1 story step + "attempt" Twisted Marionette), I can see it going both ways. Edge of the Mists added a bunch of story that's too important to skip IMO. Escape of LA could be skipped outside of the opening cinematic tbh, but I hope not. Battle for LA is already confirmed in some form, but what form is the question.

Honestly, it's pretty easy to predict how Episodes 2 and 3 will play out at this point. What's hard to predict is how ArenaNet will handle the Tower of Nightmares zone and the Escape from Lion's Arch and Battle for Lion's Arch 2 hour open world metas.

I could see them introducing them as two new instanced zones (ToN and attacked Lion's Arch), but in all honesty idk...

Agreed, but for EfLA/BfLA, the metas were 2 hour long IIRC (might've been 1?), so that'll be hard to pull off in DRM-style. Though the map was typically split in three event chains (north, south, and east), so I could see them splitting it into six "Scarlet Response Missions" and then having a seventh story/strike for the finale Prime Hologram battle.

I know the Aetherpath is still in game, im not saying readd it, im saying link it to the story, with one of the story steps requiring you to go in. Maybe a version scaled down for personal story if they think the dungeon is too difficult/long for a story encounter.

I don't think the festivals Dragon Bash or the Queens Jubilee have to be done, at least not in their entirety, that would be weird since they have annual releases now. Id just open with the story instances, ie: dragon bash ceremony wherein the assassination occurs, and the queens speech for Jubilee.

The Thermonova Reactor never had a story mode it was always only ever a fractal, nor does it fit in the present timeline, as it occured briefly before the personal story began. While this adds details to her backstory, it does little to progress the current plotline/address the current threat. I imagine my character would be too busy defending Tyria from Scarlet to stop and take a trip in the Mist to research her past. Its a bit immersion breaking to be dealing with a threat real time and then pause to play out a scene in the past, meanwhile the present threat is still rampaging unchecked. I feel like that's something i can safely do in my free time once her threat is neutralized.

For the attack on lions arch, they could split it like you said, but i think it would be better just to condense it into two meta-event encounters. (The defense/evacuation and the recapture)  of course ending like you said, with a story/strike instance at the breachmaker.

Edited April 23, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

The Thermonova Reactor never had a story mode it was always only ever a fractal, nor does it fit in the present timeline, as it occured briefly before the personal story began.

Even if they implemented the reactor as a story mission, how would they do it? We can't exactly possess the bodies of five Inquest members, like we do in the fractal.

But what I'd like see them to do is updating the fractal to include a bit of conversation between Gorrik and Ankka, to give their relation a bit more background.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

23 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Even if they implemented the reactor as a story mission, how would they do it? We can't exactly possess the bodies of five Inquest members, like we do in the fractal.

But what I'd like see them to do is updating the fractal to include a bit of conversation between Gorrik and Ankka, to give their relation a bit more background.

Actually, technically we could, if we repeated something like using the pale tree memory seeds or if we went into the fractal.

 

  But i feel like this is the type of thing we would do either when investigating who the mastermind is or after having handled the threat and wanting to dig deeper into her motivations, not after she's made an appearance and our time has become occupied with handling her threat. To that ends I think they would make it work if they moved it up to before her reveal, or down to after the battle of Lions Arch.  (At any rate, it wasnt actually released before the BoLA anyways)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

I know the Aetherpath is still in game, im not saying readd it, im saying link it to the story, with one of the story steps requiring you to go in. Maybe a version scaled down for personal story if they think the dungeon is too difficult/long for a story encounter.

Too many of the mechanics of the dungeons require multiple people (ooze doors and the electric plates for example - the former requires 2 or 4 people, the latter requires 5). Unlike Victory or Death which only required 2 mechanically but was "scaled" for five players.

And I definitely don't see them adding a dungeon into the main path after realizing they needed to turn Arah story / Victory or Death into a solo instance because of lack of players wanting to do it.

3 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

I don't think the festivals Dragon Bash or the Queens Jubilee have to be done, at least not in their entirety, that would be weird since they have annual releases now. Id just open with the story instances, ie: dragon bash ceremony wherein the assassination occurs, and the queens speech for Jubilee.

Dragon Bash and Queen's Jubilee had far too much story to skip. Of course no need to access the special festival activities, but the story releases cannot be skipped - that's where you get all of Mai Trin outside of Aetherblade Retreat, and the first introduction of Scarlet. Specifically I'm referring to these story instances:

• Dragon Bash: Ceremony and Acrimony → Hard Boiled → Every Piece Matters → No More Secrets
• Queen's Jubilee: Opening Ceremony

These should not be skipped if they want to keep the story coherent and sensible. Also taking place in "Dragon Bash Lion's Arch" was A Future in Politics which tops off the Sky Pirates storyline and leads into the election arc. And in order to make the gap between Opening Ceremony and Closing Ceremony make sense, they'll need to add some of the Queen's Jubilee content in - maybe not Crown Pavilion, but there are several things that never returned in Festival of the Four Winds, not to mention that the Crown Pavilion zone has been altered a bit (ogre section changed into White Mantle section), so it wouldn't be bad to have an 'open' exploration of the old version to go with Opening Ceremony and Scarlet's Playhouse instances.

3 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

The Thermonova Reactor never had a story mode it was always only ever a fractal, nor does it fit in the present timeline, as it occured briefly before the personal story began.

False. There was an entire story mode that was accessible during the Fractured! release which features Ellen Kiel commandeering the Mistlock Observatory from Dessa to create the Thaumanova Fractal. This is not only the capstone to the election arc (Kiel promising the fractal if elected), but also sets off the storyline continued in Season 3 with the three Arkk fractals, which the current Thaumanova Fractal completely ignores - it was our very first look at Dessa being a fractal herself:
 

Spoiler

 

Captain Ellen Kiel: Welcome back. I'm sorry that was so crazy, but you handled it better than I could have.

Captain Ellen Kiel: Chaos energy or dragon energy—either way, Scarlet and the Inquest took this facility too far too fast.

Captain Ellen Kiel: I don't understand sacrificing every worker here and endangering the entire surrounding area. Then again, I'm not evil or crazy.

Captain Ellen Kiel: At least we've got some good info to take back to the people of Lion's Arch. And that's not the only thing we're taking back.

Captain Ellen Kiel: Dessa, you're coming with me. I've got a lot more questions that need answers.

Dessa: I don't—I can't—

Captain Ellen Kiel: You're not under arrest, but I can't leave this machinery in Consortium hands. Now do us all a favor and come quietly.

Dessa walks into the asura gate. The screen flashes, and she re-appears in front of Kiel.

Captain Ellen Kiel: Nice try. Dessa. I don't know what kind of mecha-magical gizmo you're using, but you can't get away from us that easily.

Dessa: I'm sorry, have we met? Welcome to the Mistlock Observatory. So, are you interested in exploring the Fractals?

Captain Ellen Kiel: You really don't recognize me, do you? You don't remember sending a team into the Thaumanova Reactor?

Dessa: Thaumanova? I've got friends on that krewe, and from what I understand, it's not a safe place to visit. Or work.

Captain Ellen Kiel: Never mind. This is going to take some time to figure out. I'll be back, Dessa. Be here when I come for you.

Dessa: Not a problem. My life's work is here, and I couldn't leave it even if I wanted to.

Captain Ellen Kiel: I understand. At least, I think I'm starting to. My sincere apologies, citizen. Carry on.

 

Just because you're unaware of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Please take a look at this nav bar (under the hidden portion) for all Season 1 story instances and main story meta events.

That said, as I've said above, I feel it's very likely the entire election arc will be cut out of the Season 1 return - Bazaar of the Four Winds, Cutthroat Politics, and Fractured! releases.

3 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

For the attack on lions arch, they could split it like you said, but i think it would be better just to condense it into two meta-event encounters. (The defense/evacuation and the recapture)  of course ending like you said, with a story/strike instance at the breachmaker.

The problem is that "to condense it into two meta-event encounters" would make it a 2 hour long meta (according to wiki, EfLA was 50 minutes in LA, 10 minute 'break' outside of LA; doesn't say how long BfLA meta was, but I imagine it'd be 50 minutes with a 10 minute break too). If that's as a Response Mission format... I don't think ANYONE would want that. People complained about DRMs like crazy during Champions, it'd be surprising ArenaNet would even risk using the format again, tbh - they tend to shy away from stuff that gets negative feedback rather than improving it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Even if they implemented the reactor as a story mission, how would they do it? We can't exactly possess the bodies of five Inquest members, like we do in the fractal.

That's exactly what happened. The story version of that fractal was three parts basically:

1. Kiel and party show up with Lionguard in Mistlock Observatory. Force Dessa under duress to create Thaumanova disaster as a fractal.
2. Party goes into fractal, plays as it did in normal fractal version back then, but with some extra dialogue from Kiel through Observation Mode.
3. After killing anomaly boss, players were warped into a weird empty room with a glowy ball, interacting with it sent them back to the observatory, where more dialogue between Kiel and Dessa would play out.

People seem to forget that this existed, which isn't surprising. But it did. In fact, during the Fractured! update, in order to enter Fractals proper, players had to complete the newly added story mode like any dungeon with a story + explorable mode. Players could not re-enter story mode later though, and the prompt for it vanished after Fractured! Characters that existed, and logged in, but never completed the story mode could still initiate later but it didn't last.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Too many of the mechanics of the dungeons require multiple people (ooze doors and the electric plates for example - the former requires 2 or 4 people, the latter requires 5). Unlike Victory or Death which only required 2 mechanically but was "scaled" for five players.

And I definitely don't see them adding a dungeon into the main path after realizing they needed to turn Arah story / Victory or Death into a solo instance because of lack of players wanting to do it.

You seem to have forgotten that the Molton Furnace was originally a dungeon requiring 5 people. But they recently made it into a soloable story instance. They can, and should do the same with Aetherpath. Its too valuable to the scarlet story to skip. 

Quote

Dragon Bash and Queen's Jubilee had far too much story to skip. Of course no need to access the special festival activities, but the story releases cannot be skipped - that's where you get all of Mai Trin outside of Aetherblade Retreat, and the first introduction of Scarlet. Specifically I'm referring to these story instances:

• Dragon Bash: Ceremony and Acrimony → Hard Boiled → Every Piece Matters → No More Secrets
• Queen's Jubilee: Opening Ceremony

These should not be skipped if they want to keep the story coherent and sensible. Also taking place in "Dragon Bash Lion's Arch" was A Future in Politics which tops off the Sky Pirates storyline and leads into the election arc. And in order to make the gap between Opening Ceremony and Closing Ceremony make sense, they'll need to add some of the Queen's Jubilee content in - maybe not Crown Pavilion, but there are several things that never returned in Festival of the Four Winds, not to mention that the Crown Pavilion zone has been altered a bit (ogre section changed into White Mantle section), so it wouldn't be bad to have an 'open' exploration of the old version to go with Opening Ceremony and Scarlet's Playhouse instances.

I don't think you understood what i was saying. Most of the original releases where tied to the festival that occured at the time. Thus you cant redo the exact story as it was originally structured without also doing the festival. Therefore I suggest rewriting the entire release so that the relevant story info is implemented into it without needing the festival. The devs did mention that they had to change a few things. I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of them. Even if they do leave the festival in it, i imagine it would only be the story instances, not the open world events and activities. 

Quote

False. There was an entire story mode that was accessible during the Fractured! release which features Ellen Kiel commandeering the Mistlock Observatory from Dessa to create the Thaumanova Fractal. This is not only the capstone to the election arc (Kiel promising the fractal if elected), but also sets off the storyline continued in Season 3 with the three Arkk fractals, which the current Thaumanova Fractal completely ignores - it was our very first look at Dessa being a fractal herself:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Captain Ellen Kiel: Welcome back. I'm sorry that was so crazy, but you handled it better than I could have.

Captain Ellen Kiel: Chaos energy or dragon energy—either way, Scarlet and the Inquest took this facility too far too fast.

Captain Ellen Kiel: I don't understand sacrificing every worker here and endangering the entire surrounding area. Then again, I'm not evil or crazy.

Captain Ellen Kiel: At least we've got some good info to take back to the people of Lion's Arch. And that's not the only thing we're taking back.

Captain Ellen Kiel: Dessa, you're coming with me. I've got a lot more questions that need answers.

Dessa: I don't—I can't—

Captain Ellen Kiel: You're not under arrest, but I can't leave this machinery in Consortium hands. Now do us all a favor and come quietly.

Dessa walks into the asura gate. The screen flashes, and she re-appears in front of Kiel.

Captain Ellen Kiel: Nice try. Dessa. I don't know what kind of mecha-magical gizmo you're using, but you can't get away from us that easily.

Dessa: I'm sorry, have we met? Welcome to the Mistlock Observatory. So, are you interested in exploring the Fractals?

Captain Ellen Kiel: You really don't recognize me, do you? You don't remember sending a team into the Thaumanova Reactor?

Dessa: Thaumanova? I've got friends on that krewe, and from what I understand, it's not a safe place to visit. Or work.

Captain Ellen Kiel: Never mind. This is going to take some time to figure out. I'll be back, Dessa. Be here when I come for you.

Dessa: Not a problem. My life's work is here, and I couldn't leave it even if I wanted to.

Captain Ellen Kiel: I understand. At least, I think I'm starting to. My sincere apologies, citizen. Carry on.

 

Just because you're unaware of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Please take a look at this nav bar (under the hidden portion) for all Season 1 story instances and main story meta events.

That said, as I've said above, I feel it's very likely the entire election arc will be cut out of the Season 1 return - Bazaar of the Four Winds, Cutthroat Politics, and Fractured! releases.

Is that so? I honestly forgot about that part. At any rate, i still don't think its essential. 

Quote

The problem is that "to condense it into two meta-event encounters" would make it a 2 hour long meta (according to wiki, EfLA was 50 minutes in LA, 10 minute 'break' outside of LA; doesn't say how long BfLA meta was, but I imagine it'd be 50 minutes with a 10 minute break too). If that's as a Response Mission format... I don't think ANYONE would want that. People complained about DRMs like crazy during Champions, it'd be surprising ArenaNet would even risk using the format again, tbh - they tend to shy away from stuff that gets negative feedback rather than improving it.

If it remained a 2hour long meta, that wouldn't be "condensing", would it? When I say condense i mean cutting out some of the lesser unimportant events, shortening some of the remaining events, essentially take the meta event to the cutting room and restructure it so it still feels epic, challenging, and fun, but doesn't take as long to complete. They've done it before and can do it again.

 

Also there was absolutely nothing wrong with the format of DRM, just the content was lackluster, as a mechanic, it wasn't bad. If they want to avoid player backlash, just don't call it that. Instead we can call it a "dragon Storm like instance" or a "Forging Steel like instance" its really the same thing regardless of what you call it, a squad sized meta event map.

Edited April 24, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

You seem to have forgotten that the Molton Furnace was originally a dungeon requiring 5 people. But they recently made it into a soloable story instance. They can, and should do the same with Aetherpath. Its too valuable to the scarlet story to skip.

I actually didn't forget that, despite your rude tone. However, as I specifically stated, I was referring to mechanics in the level design and not simply "oh it's a dungeon therefore you can't scale it". Molten Facility didn't have any such mechanics that require multiple characters to interact with something at the same time. Puzzles that would have to be redesigned to fit solo players. And Aetherpath has multiple, intentionally placed there for the purpose of avoiding skips that were so common in dungeons, even.

IMO, it doesn't need to be added to the story journal because it's in the game, and quite honestly, it isn't that valuable. What does it add?

1. Scarlet "knew something about Caithe". It's a foreshadowing of Wynne, but it's ultimately irrelevant that Scarlet knew because it never comes up again that Scarlet knew.
2. Holograms of Aetherblades - doesn't come up again. We do have the Prime Hologram in BfLA, but we also have other holograms used both before and after, so it's not necessary.
3. Scarlet was having airships built - this is already showcased in Aetherblade Retreat that the Aetherblades have multiple airships, and as well as during Edge of the Mists stuff.
4. Clockheart - doesn't come up again in any fashion, nor does it foreshadow anything.

This dungeon is actually less relevant to the main story of S1 than the core dungeons are to why Destiny's Edge suddenly shows up united in Victory or Death when the last time the personal story showed them, they were at each other's throats in Setting the Stage.

Rather than spend time and effort redesigning something that isn't broken, just slap in a bonus achievement like True Ending in EoD - "complete Aetherpath before continuing on". Do the same with Twisted Marionette once reaching the Origins of Madness / Edge of the Mists arc.

Quote

I don't think you understood what i was saying. Most of the original releases where tied to the festival that occured at the time. Thus you cant redo the exact story as it was originally structured without also doing the festival. Therefore I suggest rewriting the entire release so that the relevant story info is implemented into it without needing the festival. The devs did mention that they had to change a few things. I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of them. Even if they do leave the festival in it, i imagine it would only be the story instances, not the open world events and activities. 

I understood this. My point, however, was that you don't need the festival to showcase the story. That you CAN redo the exact story as it was originally structured without also doing the festival. Especially for Dragon Bash, where the festivities played zero actual role in the main story - it just served as a setting and backdrop.

Same, technically, for Queen's Jubilee/Clockwork Chaos. However, there is that oddity there where you have two otherwise back-to-back instances named Opening Ceremony and Closing Ceremony. This isn't a huge deal, but having a story step akin to Alliance Investigations that deals with doing the content that didn't return in Festival of the Four Winds would be sufficient there, IMHO.

In other words, I understood what you were saying, and I was saying "I completely disagree and here is why."

Quote

Is that so? I honestly forgot about that part. At any rate, i still don't think its essential.

To Scarlet's story? Probably not. To Kiel's story? it serves as a proper capstone. But most of Kiel's story is cut so I doubt it'll return.

It also serves as a nice exploration of Dessa's story.

Quote

If it remained a 2hour long meta, that wouldn't be "condensing", would it? When I say condense i mean cutting out some of the lesser unimportant events, shortening some of the remaining events, essentially take the meta event to the cutting room and restructure it so it still feels epic, challenging, and fun, but doesn't take as long to complete. They've done it before and can do it again.

I don't think you can cut out that much, timewise, while also keeping everything of importance and, far more importantly, retaining the impact that it had. There really isn't much purpose of bringing back Battle for Lion's Arch content if you cannot retain the impact of a city being decimated and a full out war within that city happening across the span of weeks/months.

Escape from Lion's Arch was basically three event chains with a number of side events going on. Even cutting out the side events (miasma deployment, rallying point defenses), you have:

1. Protect the lighthouse workers as they flee the city
2. Get the children safely out of Lion's Arch
3. Protect the Black Lion Dolyaks
4. Protect the ogres as they flee the city
5. Get Lawson Marriner safely to the fort -> Defeat the Champion Molten Berserker
6. Protect the racing moas as they escape the city -> Defeat the Champion Toxic Wurm Queen
7. Defeat the Elite Aetherblades

All of these tell part of the story and it'd be weird, imo, to leave them out. Looking deeper, I suppose Battle for Lion's Arch can be cut down to just the finale (Assault Knights -> Prime Hologram). Still, it wouldn't really feel like a proper return of Season 1 content and wouldn't come close to showcasing that same feeling the original did. Flame and Frost did a pretty good job, even with what got cut out.

Quote

Also there was absolutely nothing wrong with the format of DRM, just the content was lackluster, as a mechanic, it wasn't bad. If they want to avoid player backlash, just don't call it that. Instead we can call it a "dragon Storm like instance" or a "Forging Steel like instance" its really the same thing regardless of what you call it, a squad sized meta event map.

Tell that to the vocal masses. They're the ones ArenaNet seem to listen to most in their kneejerk reaction and abandonment.

Something more like Dragonstorm, which allows up to 50 players, and is a proper meta map on a cycle would be far better than a 'start it at your leisure but you're limited to 5/10 players and it scales down to 1 player" map like DRMs and Forging Steel, IMO. That way, you don't even need to condense it.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Fueki.4753]

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That's exactly what happened. The story version of that fractal was three parts basically:

1. Kiel and party show up with Lionguard in Mistlock Observatory. Force Dessa under duress to create Thaumanova disaster as a fractal.
2. Party goes into fractal, plays as it did in normal fractal version back then, but with some extra dialogue from Kiel through Observation Mode.
3. After killing anomaly boss, players were warped into a weird empty room with a glowy ball, interacting with it sent them back to the observatory, where more dialogue between Kiel and Dessa would play out.

People seem to forget that this existed, which isn't surprising. But it did. In fact, during the Fractured! update, in order to enter Fractals proper, players had to complete the newly added story mode like any dungeon with a story + explorable mode. Players could not re-enter story mode later though, and the prompt for it vanished after Fractured! Characters that existed, and logged in, but never completed the story mode could still initiate later but it didn't last.

I was under the impression that you wanted to include the actual incident, not the fractal version. I misread that post.

But the Kiel version of the fractal would work fine.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

14 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I actually didn't forget that, despite your rude tone. However, as I specifically stated, I was referring to mechanics in the level design and not simply "oh it's a dungeon therefore you can't scale it". Molten Facility didn't have any such mechanics that require multiple characters to interact with something at the same time. Puzzles that would have to be redesigned to fit solo players. And Aetherpath has multiple, intentionally placed there for the purpose of avoiding skips that were so common in dungeons, even.

IMO, it doesn't need to be added to the story journal because it's in the game, and quite honestly, it isn't that valuable. What does it add?

This dungeon is actually less relevant to the main story of S1 than the core dungeons are to why Destiny's Edge suddenly shows up united in Victory or Death when the last time the personal story showed them, they were at each other's throats in Setting the Stage.

Rather than spend time and effort redesigning something that isn't broken, just slap in a bonus achievement like True Ending in EoD - "complete Aetherpath before continuing on". Do the same with Twisted Marionette once reaching the Origins of Madness / Edge of the Mists arc.

Mechanics are a non-issue for story mode. As you said, they exist as checks to prevent skipping. They could cut them, and there would still be some tense fights. The bosses are not weak even if you remove the five player reliant mechanics. It would streamline the whole process. There could be a mail after the encounter suggesting you play the dungeon for the harder version. It could be an additional achievement as well, like they did with the Molton Furnace.

Why it needs to be added? Its more important than you are giving it credit for for two reasons, one its the introduction of the Nightmare court into Scarlets alliance, that then sets up their involvement in the tower of nightmares. And two, its a major battle in the war. 

And no, just "being in the game" isn't good enough, for the sake of fluid story flow there should be some context as to when it occured along your journey.  At the very least even if it isn't a required step for the story to progress, I would like to see it noted, perhaps via mail or as an optional story step.

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I understood this. My point, however, was that you don't need the festival to showcase the story. That you CAN redo the exact story as it was originally structured without also doing the festival. Especially for Dragon Bash, where the festivities played zero actual role in the main story - it just served as a setting and backdrop.

Same, technically, for Queen's Jubilee/Clockwork Chaos. However, there is that oddity there where you have two otherwise back-to-back instances named Opening Ceremony and Closing Ceremony. This isn't a huge deal, but having a story step akin to Alliance Investigations that deals with doing the content that didn't return in Festival of the Four Winds would be sufficient there, IMHO.

In other words, I understood what you were saying, and I was saying "I completely disagree and here is why."

I honestly feel like we have the same opinion and somehow cant see it. In your original post you wrote the festivals should be included. I replied festivals don't work, but the story info from the festivals can be used. You replied we don't need the festivals just the story steps... Isn't that what I said? 

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To Scarlet's story? Probably not. To Kiel's story? it serves as a proper capstone. But most of Kiel's story is cut so I doubt it'll return.

It also serves as a nice exploration of Dessa's story.

That's why i said i don't feel it is important, for the same reason they cut out Southsun despite it having a major impact on both Kiel and Canach's story arcs, because it doesn't further the Scarlet's War main plot line. Yes it gives Scarlet some back story, but its not essential to the war arc.

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I don't think you can cut out that much, timewise, while also keeping everything of importance and, far more importantly, retaining the impact that it had. There really isn't much purpose of bringing back Battle for Lion's Arch content if you cannot retain the impact of a city being decimated and a full out war within that city happening across the span of weeks/months.

Escape from Lion's Arch was basically three event chains with a number of side events going on. Even cutting out the side events (miasma deployment, rallying point defenses), you have:

1. Protect the lighthouse workers as they flee the city
2. Get the children safely out of Lion's Arch
3. Protect the Black Lion Dolyaks
4. Protect the ogres as they flee the city
5. Get Lawson Marriner safely to the fort -> Defeat the Champion Molten Berserker
6. Protect the racing moas as they escape the city -> Defeat the Champion Toxic Wurm Queen
7. Defeat the Elite Aetherblades

All of these tell part of the story and it'd be weird, imo, to leave them out. Looking deeper, I suppose Battle for Lion's Arch can be cut down to just the finale (Assault Knights -> Prime Hologram). Still, it wouldn't really feel like a proper return of Season 1 content and wouldn't come close to showcasing that same feeling the original did. Flame and Frost did a pretty good job, even with what got cut out.

I honestly don't see all these separate "evacuate these people", "evacuate those people" events as essential. It could easily be weaved into one event; "evacuate lions arch civilians."  As you lead them towards the exit of LA the Champions can pop up in your way.

Now this is maybe a little too watered down. But the point is it doesn't have to be, and is very unlikely to be structured exactly the same way it was originally released.

Perhaps a better idea would be to reutilize the lane concept so these evacuations can occur simultaneously. Say Lonar's Pass, Gedaran Fields, and Bloodtide Coast Evacuations, with the lighthouse workers being moved into the Bloodtide Coast route, and the the Ogres being moved into the Lonar's Pass route.

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Tell that to the vocal masses. They're the ones ArenaNet seem to listen to most in their kneejerk reaction and abandonment.

Something more like Dragonstorm, which allows up to 50 players, and is a proper meta map on a cycle would be far better than a 'start it at your leisure but you're limited to 5/10 players and it scales down to 1 player" map like DRMs and Forging Steel, IMO. That way, you don't even need to condense it.

A 50 player meta event would be the best, that's what I intended in the first place. I think you're too hung up on the fact that i originally used the term 'DRM' as an example of an Instanced Meta Event, when really that's all it was supposed to be, and example of an Instanced Meta Event. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Why it needs to be added? Its more important than you are giving it credit for for two reasons, one its the introduction of the Nightmare court into Scarlets alliance, that then sets up their involvement in the tower of nightmares. And two, its a major battle in the war.

Erm... The Nightmare Court were not involved at all in Aetherpath. It didn't at all foreshadow the Toxic Alliance. In fact, the only bit we even got that there was cooperation between the two came from the short story, and based on Flame and Frost, the short stories aren't being brought into the game in any form. The only time the Nightmare Court are mentioned in Aetherpath outside of Turma's initial "the Nightmare Court aren't our problem" is:

Scarlet Briar: I'll give the Nightmare Court your regards, Caithe. And won't they love to hear about your little indiscretion?

It's also not really needed foreshadowing at all for the Tower of Nightmares as the two arcs were distinctly separate, and the Tower of Nightmares happens immediately after with its own prelude (assuming that even returns).

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And no, just "being in the game" isn't good enough, for the sake of fluid story flow there should be some context as to when it occured along your journey.  At the very least even if it isn't a required step for the story to progress, I would like to see it noted, perhaps via mail or as an optional story step.

That's exactly what the True End-like achievement would do. Give a placement for it in the storyline. I do agree that's necessary to denote when it happens, but making it part of the Golden Path in the story journal isn't.

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I honestly feel like we have the same opinion and somehow cant see it. In your original post you wrote the festivals should be included. I replied festivals don't work, but the story info from the festivals can be used. You replied we don't need the festivals just the story steps... Isn't that what I said? 

I never said the festivals themselves would be included.... In my original post, I was naming the releases that content would be included from.

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That's why i said i don't feel it is important, for the same reason they cut out Southsun despite it having a major impact on both Kiel and Canach's story arcs, because it doesn't further the Scarlet's War main plot line. Yes it gives Scarlet some back story, but its not essential to the war arc.

TBH, this is a bit arguable, because it was pretty clear back then that the purpose of the two fractals we could choose between is that they introduced the concept of the ley-lines, which is what Scarlet's goal was. So it does give some foreshadowing of Scarlet's War by hinting to the player wink-wink-nudge-nudge style that the Energy Probes that pop up 2 weeks later were searching for ley-lines, which would then go into more detail about with Edge of the Mists.

Meaning that's it's as critical as Aetherpath to Scarlet's War. But like Aetherpath, it's either minor stuff or stuff covered with Edge of the Mists (which, tbh, recaps everything including Aetherpath and Thaumanova during A Study in Scarlet).

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Now this is maybe a little too watered down. But the point is it doesn't have to be, and is very unlikely to be structured exactly the same way it was originally released.

Perhaps a better idea would be to reutilize the lane concept so these evacuations can occur simultaneously. Say Lonar's Pass, Gedaran Fields, and Bloodtide Coast Evacuations, with the lighthouse workers being moved into the Bloodtide Coast route, and the the Ogres being moved into the Lonar's Pass route.

TBH, that's pretty much how it was done in the first place.

Ogres+Moa = Lornar's evacuation

Lightouse + Cobiah = Bloodtide evacuation

Evon = Gate evacuation

Children = Gendarran evacuation

Evon + Children overlapped a bit, both starting from Trader's Forum, and one led into the other - storywise, the original plan was to evacuate the group of civilians through the asura gates before shutting them down, but Evon had shut down the gates once he was through himself somehow, forcing the civilians to go back through the armies and to Gendarran Fields. The other four, despite sharing two destinations, started from separate points on the map (Cobiah's house at Grand Piazza versus at the lighthouse, for example).

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A 50 player meta event would be the best, that's what I intended in the first place. I think you're too hung up on the fact that i originally used the term 'DRM' as an example of an Instanced Meta Event, when really that's all it was supposed to be, and example of an Instanced Meta Event. 

Well, DRMs were explicitly scaled 1-5-man instanced content that take ~15 minutes to complete so when DRMs are used as a point of comparison, I (and I imagine everyone else) think "scaled 1-5-man content in instanced versions of open world completeable within 15-30 minutes", just as if you were to say raid, I would think "hard 10-man instanced content in their own map".

If you had said Twisted Marionette or Dragonstorm, I wouldn't have assumed "scaled down for 1-5 players". I am in full agreement that Twisted Marionette format would be ideal. 50 players private, 75 players public, working on a 2 hour cycle. Whole thing could be about 1 hour long after removing repeating events, and combing both EfLA and BfLA.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

34 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Erm... The Nightmare Court were not involved at all in Aetherpath. It didn't at all foreshadow the Toxic Alliance. In fact, the only bit we even got that there was cooperation between the two came from the short story, and based on Flame and Frost, the short stories aren't being brought into the game in any form. The only time the Nightmare Court are mentioned in Aetherpath outside of Turma's initial "the Nightmare Court aren't our problem" is:

Scarlet Briar: I'll give the Nightmare Court your regards, Caithe. And won't they love to hear about your little indiscretion?

It's also not really needed foreshadowing at all for the Tower of Nightmares as the two arcs were distinctly separate, and the Tower of Nightmares happens immediately after with its own prelude (assuming that even returns).

That's exactly what the True End-like achievement would do. Give a placement for it in the storyline. I do agree that's necessary to denote when it happens, but making it part of the Golden Path in the story journal isn't.

I mean, it was pretty obvious to me that they had relations to the nightmare court:

1. They built a base, uncontested in the heart of nightmare court territory

2. They said "the nightmare court aren't our problem"

3. Scarlet's comment of telling the nightmare court about Caith's past.

While you could reasonably say there's not a lot to go off here, i strongly feel those three things alone draw a pretty clear picture. I mean, that's the thing about foreshadowing isn't it? You're not supposed to outright shout the reveal, but subtly prod and nudge at it. It's still fair to say they could do more, and maybe they will, just like they added lore pages and corpse notes to Molton Furnace. But I wouldn't outright dismiss the connection just because it isn't jarringly shoved in your face.

34 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I never said the festivals themselves would be included.... In my original post, I was naming the releases that content would be included from.

I misunderstood that then, since the festivals and their respective releases share the same name.

 

34 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

storywise, the original plan was to evacuate the group of civilians through the asura gates before shutting them down, but Evon had shut down the gates once he was through himself somehow, forcing the civilians to go back through the armies and to Gendarran Fields.

Oh kitten, thats the real reason there were more casualties, because he didn't win, he left them to die. He said "kitten you kittens, you didn't vote for me, stay here and play with Scarlet, i'm out!" Evon is a War Criminal! 

34 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Well, DRMs were explicitly scaled 1-5-man instanced content that take ~15 minutes to complete so when DRMs are used as a point of comparison, I (and I imagine everyone else) think "scaled 1-5-man content in instanced versions of open world completeable within 15-30 minutes", just as if you were to say raid, I would think "hard 10-man instanced content in their own map".

If you had said Twisted Marionette or Dragonstorm, I wouldn't have assumed "scaled down for 1-5 players". I am in full agreement that Twisted Marionette format would be ideal. 50 players private, 75 players public, working on a 2 hour cycle. Whole thing could be about 1 hour long after removing repeating events, and combing both EfLA and BfLA.

Fair enough, i used the wrong term. i should have said Dragonstrom. In that case I believe we are in agreement.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

I mean, it was pretty obvious to me that they had relations to the nightmare court:

1. They built a base, uncontested in the heart of nightmare court territory

2. They said "the nightmare court aren't our problem"

3. Scarlet's comment of telling the nightmare court about Caith's past.

While you could reasonably say there's not a lot to go off here, i strongly feel those three things alone draw a pretty clear picture. I mean, that's the thing about foreshadowing isn't it? You're not supposed to outright shout the reveal, but subtly prod and nudge at it. It's still fair to say they could do more, and maybe they will, just like they added lore pages and corpse notes to Molton Furnace. But I wouldn't outright dismiss the connection just because it isn't jarringly shoved in your face.

Well, in the case of #2, that's Lionguard Turma saying it, and she said it because because while the Nightmare Court were present they were not their objectives - not because the two groups were allied. And there's this.. .weird... timey whimey oddity going on because even though TA explorable paths should have been part of 1325, and Twilight Assault part of 1326, Aetherpath takes place in the same instance, and thus "at the same time" as the old TA paths and it's just... bleh. Part of what the Season 1 Story Journal is actually trying to fix. Sadly, they overlooked/forgot about one of the biggest time issues - why the Commander and Destiny's Edge return home immediately after vowing to stay with the Pact until all Elder Dragons are killed.

As to #1: I wouldn't say uncontested at all. The Aetherpath opens up with the Aetherblades burning sylvari and Courtier tamed creatures. That shows that there's active confrontation going on.

And for 3: This was just Scarlet taunting Caithe, and doesn't actually show there's an alliance between the two. Scarlet would be fully capable of sending a message to some Courtiers and spreading rumors with or without an alliance with them - any one would be able to do that, TBH.

As mention, the only proper hint of working together is in the short story.

 

I'd still say it's unlikely - and unnecessary - to be in the story journal. It's as relevant as Thaumanova story mode was. Which is to say: it had pieces, but it still falls in line with the "easily cut out" stuff. Moreso since it's in-game.

But I do hope it has an achievement telling players to go do it at the end of Clockwork Chaos.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

TBH, this is a bit arguable, because it was pretty clear back then that the purpose of the two fractals we could choose between is that they introduced the concept of the ley-lines, which is what Scarlet's goal was. So it does give some foreshadowing of Scarlet's War by hinting to the player wink-wink-nudge-nudge style that the Energy Probes that pop up 2 weeks later were searching for ley-lines, which would then go into more detail about with Edge of the Mists.

Meaning that's it's as critical as Aetherpath to Scarlet's War. But like Aetherpath, it's either minor stuff or stuff covered with Edge of the Mists (which, tbh, recaps everything including Aetherpath and Thaumanova during A Study in Scarlet).

I mean they both have their merits. I just cant see myself leaving the front lines, where my sword is urgently needed, to travel through echos of the past in the mist. Fighting conflicts I can't change, because they've already passed, while ignoring the present conflict that actively needs my attention. Not to say the revelations gained from the fractal are not interesting or useful, but rather, that there is a time and a place. For me, that's a bit immersion breaking.

That said, I could see myself running towards the fractal after learning new Scarlet Intel was discovered within that might help us turn the tides of the war. Although the fractal didn't help us much, maybe we thought it might have and went in hoping for the best. I could accept that.

The reason I feel so strongly about the Aetherpath is because its one of the few victories we have in the war, and with it we have a better picture of us fighting back. It honestly doen't matter to me if there is anything revelational we learn in it, or any deep and meaningful foreshadowing, but rather it makes the war feel more complete, we are fighting back, and occasionally wining some battles, even as we ultimately lose the war. I don't see reclaiming LA as winning the war, it was lost when Scarlet achieved her objective of waking Mordremoth. 

At any rate. I would be okay if both the fractal and dungeon were included in as you say "true-end achievements". But id be upset if the dungeon wasn't mentioned at all.

Edited April 24, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

  

Just now, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

I mean they both have their merits. I just cant see myself leaving the front lines, where my sword is urgently needed, to travel through echos of the past in the mist.

Originally, it happened when the Tower of Nightmares issue was ending. So there wasn't much "urgently needed". The threat at the time was gone and over with, only cleanup left to deal with.
And for pacing sake, I also suggested tying to the end of the election arc - since, again, no "urgently needed" as it'd be before Queen's Jubilee/Clockwork Chaos, and it already served to work as a capstone. The main issue there is an early reveal of this "Scarlet" individual. Would also fit bringing it back with the rest of Kiel's story at a later date given it's very clearly not going to be returning now.

Just now, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

The reason I feel so strongly about the Aetherpath is because its one of the few victories we have in the war, and with it we have a better picture of us fighting back. It honestly doen't matter to me if there is anything revelational we learn in it, or any deep and meaningful foreshadowing, but rather it makes the war feel more complete, we are fighting back, and occasionally wining some battles, even as we ultimately lose the war. I don't see reclaiming LA as winning the war, it was lost when Scarlet achieved her objective of waking Mordremoth. 

 

At any rate. I would be okay if both the fractal and dungeon were included in as you say "true-end achievements". But id be upset if the dungeon wasn't mentioned at all.

I can agree a bit. In an ideal situation, I would fully agree with Aetherpath being given a solo counterpart, though the gameplay would be drastically altered - which honestly would be making it even more in favor, similar to story->strike->Strike CM situations.
But I don't see them doing it at all. I think the best we can hope for is just a True End styled achievement to do Aetherpath after completing Scarlet's Playhouse or whathaveyou.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

37 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I'd still say it's unlikely - and unnecessary - to be in the story journal. It's as relevant as Thaumanova story mode was. Which is to say: it had pieces, but it still falls in line with the "easily cut out" stuff. Moreso since it's in-game.

But I do hope it has an achievement telling players to go do it at the end of Clockwork Chaos.

Honestly though, that's how most of Living World Season 1 was during its original release. Short, disconnect releases, with many not revealing much -if any story lore at all. The whole Scarlet reveal had almost no foreshadowing at all. I strongly remember both my personal, and public outrage at how poorly the story quality was, especially during the first half. 

But that's why they changed their approach in season 2, no? And its why they are going back and restructuring season 1 now.

That said, they did a great job of repackaging flame and frost(which was initially I forgot how many different releases) into a continuous and relevant story. I strongly believe they can do the same with the Aetherpath dungeon.

Edited April 25, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

34 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

  

Originally, it happened when the Tower of Nightmares issue was ending. So there wasn't much "urgently needed". The threat at the time was gone and over with, only cleanup left to deal with.

Actually, originally Twilight Assault occured after the Queen's Jubilee and before the Tower of Nightmares. It was us striking back at Scarlet. It had the whole revenge vibe to it. Although im fine with them moving it around if they feel it fits better elsewhere.

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And for pacing sake, I also suggested tying to the end of the election arc - since, again, no "urgently needed" as it'd be before Queen's Jubilee/Clockwork Chaos, and it already served to work as a capstone. The main issue there is an early reveal of this "Scarlet" individual. Would also fit bringing it back with the rest of Kiel's story at a later date given it's very clearly not going to be returning now.

So id be on board for this. If say they remove Scarlets name, and we just see this holographic Sylvari mad woman who we don't know. That would in my opinion actually help build up to the reveal at the jubilee. Give the story a bit more foreshadowing.

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I can agree a bit. In an ideal situation, I would fully agree with Aetherpath being given a solo counterpart, though the gameplay would be drastically altered - which honestly would be making it even more in favor, similar to story->strike->Strike CM situations.
But I don't see them doing it at all. I think the best we can hope for is just a True End styled achievement to do Aetherpath after completing Scarlet's Playhouse or whathaveyou.

I definitely want it in story preferably, but i would accept it as a side achievement.

Alternatively, i wouldn't mind if they skipped it for now and reintegrated in the the future like one Dev interview hinted they might do with Southsun, with his infamous, "...for now." Of course i could just be reading too much into his words, and for all i know, he misspoke, but hey, I've got my fingers crossed anyway.

Edited April 25, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

15 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Honestly though, that's how most of Living World Season 1 was during its original release. Short, disconnect releases, with many not revealing much -if any story lore at all. The whole Scarlet reveal had almost no foreshadowing at all. I strongly remember both my personal, and public outrage at how poorly the story quality was, especially during the first half.

I'd disagree. The Lost Shores -> Flame and Frost was disconnected, but Flame and Frost -> Secret of Southsun was very clearly led in with the refugees in LA (removed in the re-release sadly, though some dialogue remains), and similarly Last Stand -> Dragon Bash was firmly established with multiple comments from kiel about the "upcoming celebration". Similarly, Mai Trin explicitly namedrops Scarlet in Aetherblade Retreat, and the last dialogue from Sky Pirates is about nominating Kiel to replace Theo Ashford which leads into Bazaar where Magnus brings up the Zephyrites as a chance for Kiel to cement her way of joining.

The only "disjointed" connection after Lost Shores and F&F (which keep in mind, Lost Shores was in development while the rest of core was, unlike F&F) was Cutthroat -> Queen's Jubilee, but even then during Cutthroat, the Great Collapse had a big kitten tent put over. Tequatl Rising might've felt disconnected, but it was still tied in via Rox's trials to become a member of the Stone Warband, and her killing Tequatl was brought up in Origins of Madness.

 

The story quality was a completely different issue than the "disconnected releases". Rather, from what I remember it was general quality of writing/voice acting, because of buggy releases (due to the release cadence ironically), small sized individual releases (also due to release cadence), Scarlet's Villain Sue syndrome via her short story introduction and British Harley Quinn attitude, and temporary nature of releases.

15 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Actually, originally Twilight Assault occured after the Queen's Jubilee and before the Tower of Nightmares. It was us striking back at Scarlet. It had the whole revenge vibe to it. Although im fine with them moving it around if they feel it fits better elsewhere.

That line was very clearly in reference to Fractured! release and story, not Twilight Assault.

15 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

So id be on board for this. If say they remove Scarlets name, and we just see this holographic Sylvari mad woman who we don't know. That would in my opinion actually help build up to the reveal at the jubilee. Give the story a bit more foreshadowing.

"Mysterious Stranger" instead of Scarlet would work, indeed. Though not holographic - I'll just assume you're still thinking of Twilight Assault in that comment.

15 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

I definitely want it in story preferably, but i would accept it as a side achievement.

Alternatively, i wouldn't mind if they skipped it for now and reintegrated in the the future like one Dev interview hinted they might do with Southsun, with his infamous, "...for now." Of course i could just be reading too much into his words, and for all i know, he misspoke, but hey, I've got my fingers crossed anyway.

In addition to Joe Kimmes' interview, Bobby Stein stated on the forum that they'd like to reiterate on old content further as well. We may get to see the Southsun and whatever else was cut added down the line in another 10 years.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I'd disagree. The Lost Shores -> Flame and Frost was disconnected, but Flame and Frost -> Secret of Southsun was very clearly led in with the refugees in LA (removed in the re-release sadly, though some dialogue remains), and similarly Last Stand -> Dragon Bash was firmly established with multiple comments from kiel about the "upcoming celebration". Similarly, Mai Trin explicitly namedrops Scarlet in Aetherblade Retreat, and the last dialogue from Sky Pirates is about nominating Kiel to replace Theo Ashford which leads into Bazaar where Magnus brings up the Zephyrites as a chance for Kiel to cement her way of joining.

The only "disjointed" connection after Lost Shores and F&F (which keep in mind, Lost Shores was in development while the rest of core was, unlike F&F) was Cutthroat -> Queen's Jubilee, but even then during Cutthroat, the Great Collapse had a big kitten tent put over. Tequatl Rising might've felt disconnected, but it was still tied in via Rox's trials to become a member of the Stone Warband, and her killing Tequatl was brought up in Origins of Madness.

 

The story quality was a completely different issue than the "disconnected releases". Rather, from what I remember it was general quality of writing/voice acting, because of buggy releases (due to the release cadence ironically), small sized individual releases (also due to release cadence), Scarlet's Villain Sue syndrome via her short story introduction and British Harley Quinn attitude, and temporary nature of releases.

By disconnected I wasn't referring to one release being connected to the next, but rather at the releases themselves, how they were broken up into smaller patches. Sometimes the only new thing you'd get is a refugee camp, with not much (if any) actual story detail or gameplay attached. So even if it was connected, it didn't feel that way because of the slow progression. This made it a bit hard to follow, especially if you missed a patch.

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That line was very clearly in reference to Fractured! release and story, not Twilight Assault.

"Mysterious Stranger" instead of Scarlet would work, indeed. Though not holographic - I'll just assume you're still thinking of Twilight Assault in that comment.

Yes, my bad, you are correct. Haha, my one track mind. That said, a "mysterious stranger" would work for either release if you moved it to the time frame you mentioned. But as I think on it more, i think fractured would fit better. Because moving up the Twilight Assault to before we knew who scarlet was would take out the whole revenge vibe.

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In addition to Joe Kimmes' interview, Bobby Stein stated on the forum that they'd like to reiterate on old content further as well. We may get to see the Southsun and whatever else was cut added down the line in another 10 years.

Sweet~

Edited April 25, 2022 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

By disconnected I wasn't referring to one release being connected to the next, but rather at the releases themselves, how they were broken up into smaller patches. Sometimes the only new thing you'd get is a refugee camp, with not much actual story detail or gameplay attached. So even if it was connect, it didn't feel that way because of the slow progression. This made it a bit hard to follow, especially if you missed a patch.

I mean, that exact example was just the Flame and Frost: Prelude patch (which actually did have 2 events and about 5 different activities to do on top of the refugee camps, despite the fact that everyone and their mother claims it was just fixing signs...). Preludes are intentionally vague and lacking content because it's pure foreshadowing. That's like saying the Awakened showing up on Tyrian shores between PoF And S4 is disconnected from Season 4 because it had little content when it was a direct lead in to the fact that Joko was prepping an invasion of Tyria.

I just simply cannot agree that's a disconnect. Lack of content != disconnection of story.

3 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Yes, my bad, you are correct. Haha, one track mind. That said, a "mysterious stranger" would work for either release if you moved it to the time frame you mentioned. But as I think on it more, i think fractured would fit better. Because moving up the Twilight Assault to before we knew who scarlet was would take out the whole revenge aspect.

I don't think renaming Scarlet can be done in Aetherpath since it too heavily focuses on Caithe specifically going after Scarlet because of a message she got from Scarlet. Because of that... it really wouldn't fit as pre-Queen's Jubilee at all. It best remain post-Clockwork Chaos.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

5 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I mean, that exact example was just the Flame and Frost: Prelude patch (which actually did have 2 events and about 5 different activities to do on top of the refugee camps, despite the fact that everyone and their mother claims it was just fixing signs...). Preludes are intentionally vague and lacking content because it's pure foreshadowing. That's like saying the Awakened showing up on Tyrian shores between PoF And S4 is disconnected from Season 4 because it had little content when it was a direct lead in to the fact that Joko was prepping an invasion of Tyria.

I just simply cannot agree that's a disconnect. Lack of content != disconnection of story.

Honestly that's the only example I remember off the top of my head because this all happened so long ago and only Flame and Frost is fresh in my head. As i play through it i start recalling the differences. 

 

But honestly speaking, in terms of flame and frost, even though they didn't add much in the release aside from some lore pages (in fact they even dropped some events), the simple fact that its now one continuous patch has really streamlined the process and made it feel far more complete and connected to me.

5 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I don't think renaming Scarlet can be done in Aetherpath since it too heavily focuses on Caithe specifically going after Scarlet because of a message she got from Scarlet. Because of that... it really wouldn't fit as pre-Queen's Jubilee at all. It best remain post-Clockwork Chaos.

You're absolutely correct. They'd have to change too much dialogue.