feedback on the current state of trait lines

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

Hi all!
Since the latest updates to thief are a step into the right direction but not really sufficient to make the gameplay more fun and rewarding, I decided to give you a little inspiratrion in bringing the base traitlines of thief more to their actually functionality, without a complete redesign which we all know takes a lot of time. 

Of course this doesnt mean that there is no need for some redesigns.

 

First I like to say that I am an absolute casual and not a good player in PvE or WvW or even SPvP besides being on board since the beginning, so all of these things I will mentioned are not related to high-end balancing in either of these spectrums and so numeric changes may need to be applied afterwards.

 

Secondly, why taking a look at the traitlines?

 

In my opinion thief has the issue of trying to be a hybrid in too many traits (and weapons), there is no clear separation regarding the roles you can actually take in the game, which makes building a build a bit awkward and also restrictive.

 

The goal or lets say my intention with this is just to give a possibility to solve some issues without the need of completely changing or re-evaluate stuff that is already in the game by now. This does not mean that everything will be fine with these suggested changes so feedback from you guys is much appreciated.

 

So to start this topic I would like to take a look at the current trait lines and their description as they are by now:

 

 Deadly Arts — Focuses on use of poisoned, and exploiting enemies with low health. Enhances dagger skills.

 Critical Strikes — Focuses on critical hits and critical damage. Enhances pistol, harpoon gun, and signet skills.

 Shadow Arts — Focuses on stealth and blinding enemies. Enhances venom and deception skills.

 Acrobatics — Focuses on dodging, mobility, and healing. Enhances sword and spear.

 Trickery — Focuses on stealing and managing initiative. Enhances trick and steal skills.

 

To bring them more in line with their actual purpose i will slightly change that regarding this post.

 

 Deadly Arts — Focuses on Offence [Condition Damage] and Venom Utilities

 Critical Strikes — Focuses on Offence [Power or Strike Damage] and Sigil Utilities

 Shadow Arts — Focuses on Defence [Stealth] and Deception Utilities

 Acrobatics — Focuses on Defence [Dodging]

 Trickery — Focuses on Ultility [Stealing] and Tricks utilities

 

As you can see straight forward Acrobatics does not have designated Utilities bound into the trait line and focuses on a mechanic that is used by every profession it is also the worst offender in terms of this approach to that point that I simply don’t know an easy fix for this, so it will be left out.

Shadow Art was just updated recently, and while there are some complains about these changes, I think the theme of shadow arts in in the right spot, so I will leave that out as well.

 

So the first trait line we will take a look at is Deadly Arts:

Tier	Trait		Description
Minor Adept	Serpent's Touch		Stealing inflicts poison. While in the downed state, your attacks apply poison.
Major Adept	Dagger Training		Gain bonus power, which is increased when wielding a dagger.
Major Adept	Mug		Deal damage and gain life when stealing. This attack cannot critically hit enemies.
Major Adept	Deadly Ambition		Inflict poison when striking a foe with a dual wield attack. Gain increased condition damage. Applies poison once per attack use.
Minor Master	Lotus Poison	10	Weaken targets when you poison them.
Major Master	Even the Odds		Apply vulnerability when you steal. Gain might when you hit with a stealth attack.
Major Master	Panic Strike	20	Immobilizing a foe poisons them. Striking a foe below the health threshold immobilizes them.
Major Master	Revealed Training		Gain power, then gain extra power while you are revealed.
Minor Grandmaster	Exposed Weakness		Deal increased strike damage to your target for each unique condition on them.
Major Grandmaster	Potent Poison		Poison you inflict has increased damage and duration. Other Deadly Arts traits apply additional stacks of poison.
Major Grandmaster	Improvisation	15	Use stolen skills twice. Recharge one random equipped utility skill when you steal. Goes on cooldown regardless of whether a utility skill is recharged. Does not affect inactive sequence skills.
Major Grandmaster	Executioner		Deal increased strike damage when your target is below the health threshold.

 

 

Serpent’s Touch: this minor trait has connections to steal and with it to trickery but it seems fine the way it is.

Dagger Training: Dagger is able to be played as a condition weapon due to death blossom but if you are using dagger in a Condi Build you are mostly not that interested in power. So this trait doesn’t seem right to me here, it should be in the Power Trait which is Critical Strikes

Mug: this trait itself is fine but it has absolutely no connection with any other trait in this line it is also focused around the steal mechanic which is the reason why I see this trait in trickery

Deadly Ambition: the only major adept is see fully fitting in this trait line, nothing to add here.

 

Lotus Poison: fits with the theme and the purpose of the trait line, nothing to add/change here

Even the Odds: is actually odd in here. First line is more trickery, second line is more shadow arts. So I would argue to put it out of this trait line

Panic Strike: fits with the theme and the purpose of the trait line, nothing to add here (might need some numbers change though)

Revealed Training: also absolutely no connection with the rest here, belongs technically to shadow arts

 

Exposed Weakness: increasing only the strike damage is again pretty odd in this trait line, either it should increase overall damage output (like lead attacks) with than maybe a lower percentage or it needs to go somewhere else (most likely critical strikes)

Potent Poison: fits with the theme and the purpose of the trait line, nothing to add

Improvisation: this is in my mind the definition of a trickery trait, so it should be moved there.

Executioner: this on the other hand is a perfect example of a power trait, shouldn’t be in a condi trait line (like the 5% crit in arms).

 

After re-evaluating kitten we are now going into Critical Strikes:

Tier	Trait		Description
Minor Adept	Keen Observer		Critical-hit chance is increased while your health is above the threshold.
Major Adept	Assassin's Fury	2	Gain might when you gain fury.
Major Adept	Signets of Power		Signets gain reduced recharge time and an additional passive effect.
Major Adept	Twin Fangs		Deal increased critical damage while your health is above the threshold. Gain bonus critical-hit chance when hitting a foe from behind or the side.
Minor Master	Unrelenting Strikes	8	Grant fury to yourself and nearby allies when you critically strike an enemy.
Major Master	Sundering Shade	1	Stealth Attack skills inflict vulnerability and grant fury upon successfully hitting foes.
Major Master	Practiced Tolerance		Gain ferocity based on your precision.
Major Master	Deadly Aim	8	Your pistol and harpoon gun attacks now pierce, but have reduced strike damage.
Minor Grandmaster	Ferocious Strikes		Gain increased critical damage against foes whose health is above the threshold.
Major Grandmaster	No Quarter	2	Landing a critical hit while under the effects of fury increases the duration of fury. Gain increased ferocity while under the effects of fury.
Major Grandmaster	Hidden Killer		Gain bonus critical-hit chance while stealthed. This bonus lingers for a short duration after you've been revealed.
Major Grandmaster	Invigorating Precision		You are healed for a percentage of outgoing critical-hit damage. This healing is increased while you are under the effects of fury.

 

Here I keep it short, because most of these traits are actually in the right spot in terms of the trait line, some numbers might need to be looked at.

The effect of exposed weaknesses could be somewhat baked into Hidden Killer to bring that up to line with the other two options there but this is just a wild suggestion.

The only real offender in here is Deadly Aim because either pistol and harpoon are not really clear power weapons, like dagger in vise versa. I would say it makes more sense to have that in deadly arts besides not even being related to Condi damage directly but i like to hear your opinion on this

 

So only one line left – trickery:

Tier	Trait		Description
Minor Adept	Kleptomaniac		Stealing gives you initiative.
Major Adept	Uncatchable		Leave behind lesser caltrops when you dodge.
Major Adept	Burst of Agility		Use Lesser Haste when attacking a foe from behind or from the side.
Major Adept	Thrill of the Crime		When you Steal, you and all nearby allies gain fury, might, and swiftness for 10 seconds.
Minor Master	Preparedness		Increases maximum initiative by 3. Gain increased expertise.
Major Master	Bountiful Theft		Stealing grants you and all nearby allies vigor. You rip boons from your target and grant them to nearby allies.
Major Master	Trickster		Tricks gain reduced recharge and remove conditions.
Major Master	Pressure Striking		Enemies you interrupt are inflicted with torment. This trait can only affect enemies with defiance bars once per interval.
Minor Grandmaster	Lead Attacks		Increases all damage dealt per initiative spent. Steal gains reduced recharge time.
Major Grandmaster	Quick Pockets	8	Gain initiative on swapping weapons while in combat.
Major Grandmaster	Sleight of Hand		Stealing also dazes the target. Reduces the recharge of Steal.
Major Grandmaster	Deadly Ambush		Stealing also applies bleeding. Bleeding you inflict deals more damage.

 

 

Kleptomaniac: fits with the theme and the purpose of the trait line, nothing to add

Uncatchable: could be in kitten and switch places with Mug 1:1 (or it could be even in Acrobatics)

Burst of Agility: technically a trait that should be in CS

Thrill of the Crime: perfectly fine in here

 

Preparedness: one of the most discussed traits in the arsenal, I also think the 3 initiative should be baseline to also make balancing for anet easier in the future. The expertise part could be moved to kitten.

Bountiful Theft: perfectly fine in here

Trickster: same here

Pressure Striking: here I am a bit unsure if this should be in kitten, since there is no other synergy with the break bar besides the daze, I am questioning the trait as a whole. Maybe the pvp and wvw players can give their insides here if this is a well used trait.

 

Lead Attacks: very cool concept and fits every type of damage so I don’t see the need to move it while not having a connection you the steal mechanic itself (besides the cd reduction, which could be separated)

Quick Pockets: fits with the theme and the purpose of the trait line, nothing to add

Sleight of Hand: fits with the theme and the purpose of the trait line, nothing to add

Deadly Ambush: could switch places 1:1 with Improvisation

So the is my initial draft of this topic. as i said it is far from perfect but making trickery less mendatory while still keeping its intend and also separating power and condi damage more to make place to choose a utility trait line without losing dps is the way to go in my opinion. 

So what is your take on the general idea maybe you can also make suggestions to handle some of the "odd" traits so that instead of the typical complain posts we can get a concructive feedback post that will help the balance team out.
 

Thanks for your time

[Vidit.7108]

Some of these things you think of as being weird are intentional.

Coming from a PvE perspective.

Deadly Arts has power traits on it because those traits don't compete in a power build with the condi traits. So you can take Critical Strikes and Deadly Arts together and have both sets of power traits. If you for example moved Executioner to Critical Strikes players would have to choose that over another trait, the result is a dps loss. In the distant past Specialization trait lines gave stats and Deadly Arts gave both condition duration and Power, Critical Strikes gave players Precision and Critical Damage. Trickery was the condition damage & stealing trait line and so it inherited condition based traits. A condi-damage oriented build takes Trickery and Deadly Arts, if they want defensive traits they give up dps ones by choosing another Specialization. There is not much reason to use Trickery in a power build and in the past there haven't been many PvE power builds that have found a reason to take it.

If Improvisation and Deadly Ambush traded places then players could only choose between poison and bleeding damage even though their are traits that allow for a condi build to do both with the same action (steal, D/D 3). 

The idea has been to choose between "damage + utility" or "Damage + more Damage". If you look at other classes that's generally the pattern they fall into. Sometimes they have an explicitly critical hit Specialization and another power damage oriented one. Guardian has a couple traits on a specialization that prevent it from taking both the best power damage and condition damage traits together. 

With that in mind I don't see how your suggestions couldn't be a dps loss. Those damage traits don't need to be split between Deadly Arts, Trickery, and Critical Strikes, but there is not a reason other than uniformity to crowd them together further then they already are. If you did crowd them then high damage builds must take a utility trait line, and their damage traits would need to all be buffed to make up for the loss of choosing Specializations to get two damage trait lines.

People in this forum have made a lot of constructive feedback threads for years now, if the devs want current suggestions they can still go look at them because hardly anything has changed about thief since like 2019 (recent SA changes not withstanding)🤷‍♂️

[Burial.1958]

My feedback? Acro is complete garbage since years and the devs need to fix it. When are the 300cds changed?

[ASP.8093]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:46 PM, Vidit.7108 said:

Some of these things you think of as being weird are intentional.

Yup. Putting everything related to a tactic or ability into one trait line means builds lose a lot of the ability to specialize. The point of the current structure is that a broad strategy like "I want to focus on condition damage" has deep support and useful synergy across 2-4 viable trait lines.

If you pile everything into one scrupluously-single-themed trait line, you're just creating a situation where the most likely outcome is that half of it never gets used.

[DeadlyShash.5891]

It is frustrating that both DArts and CS are effectively required when running any power build, even for casual players.  It is frustrating because even if I don't use daggers, and don't stealth, and don't apply a lot of conditions (Daredevil prime example), I'm still taking those traits that buff daggers, and being revealed, and buff me based on conditions applied, because Executioner and Exposed Weakness are so ridiculously powerful. They are so powerful that people would take DArts even if all of the Adept and Master traits did nothing. People would much rather take something interesting like Acrobatics, but it is simply foolish to do so outside of soloing a HoT hero challenge.

There's no problem with it being obligatory to take a traitline literally named "critical strikes" when our builds are all about dealing critical strikes. But DArts is effectively "critical strikes: part two", and our third traitline is our elite spec, so we don't have much room for fun.

Daredevils should be able to realistically consider Acrobatics for general purpose PvE. Deadeyes should be able to realistically consider Shadow Arts for general purpose PvE. Currently these traitlines only see some regular use in WvW, which is balanced differently so it's not relevant. They do not see regular use in PvE.

TL;DR

My Suggestions:

1) It's okay for Critical Strikes to be relevant to only power builds, so it should also be okay if Deadly Arts was relevant to only condition builds.

2) If Lead Attacks in Trickery (an all-purpose traitline) affects all damage, then Exposed Weakness in Deadly Arts (a condition-focused traitline) should also affect all damage, or maybe just condi damage!

3) Similarly, either put Executioner as-is in Critical Strikes, OR nerf it and let it apply to condi damage as well....or maybe only condi damage.

3) EITHER: Reduce the amount of  +% damage traits overall and redistribute that damage to other traits, OR: Give every traitline, including Acrobatics and Shadow Arts, some big +% damage traits that let them compete with DArts, CS, and trickery.

4) Please make Swindler's Equilibrium apply to staves as well! 🙂 (Or maybe all weapons while you're at it. You can nerf the power gain if you want.)

also, I have to agree with the OP, what the heck is Improvisation and Revealed training doing in Deadly Arts? I think I just hate Deadly Arts. It's the premier condi traitline that also steals huge, strong traits from other traitlines.

Thief is a lot of fun, and a lot of its traits are really cool and interesting, and offer unique playstyles! Unfortunately, we can't take these traits because a couple of strangely placed "double your strike damage basically for free" ones that completely blow them out of the water, even when they would be useful.

Edited September 15, 2022 by DeadlyShash.5891
trait abbreviation being seen as a swear word, spelling