What Needs To Be Done To Improve Inventions? - Discussion Post - (Yes It Really Does Need Improvement).

[SleepyBat.9034]

Sorry for the long read, but there is a lot to cover. The first thing we need to do is establish that Inventions really does need to be improved and we're not just asking for needless power-creep. Let's take a look.

 

Inventions is almost never used except with Alchemy which is obviously a red flag that something might not be quite right here. There are many reason why this is the case, most notably is the fact that Inventions is semi-reliant on Alchemy for allied healing which is a bit odd because Inventions is listed as focusing on healing and Alchemy is not, perhaps it should focus on healing allies and Alchemy should have more selfish healing options? Anyway, another good reason why these two trait-lines are often paired is that Alchemy has many strong synergies with Inventions which isn't actually a bad thing.

Next we need to look at why Inventions is rarely used with the other trait-lines.

I think the primary reason here is that out of the three trait-lines that improve slots skills Alchemy is hogging all the glory with its powerful Elixir skill type. Now you might suggest the obvious approach of nerfing Elixirs into the ground to make room for Turrets, Gadgets, and Kits and while that may sound appealing to players who don't play Engineer I don't think such a heavy handed approach is necessary. I believe a more delicate option would be improve the Turret skill type and the Tools trait-line, I think the majority of Gadgets do not need improvement and are rarely chosen not because they are bad but because the Tools trait-line is in need of some adjustments. The second reason is because the strongest trait in Inventions works best with the Shield weapon which puts weapon combinations like Rifle, Pistol/Pistol, Mace/Pistol, Sword/Pistol, and Hammer at a disadvantage.

And finally we need to look at traits that are in need of improvement in the Inventions trait-line, starting with Automated Medical Response. This trait has high internal cooldown, marginal effects and is attempting to compete with the strongest trait in its tier (Over Shield) without much success thanks to being completely out of its league. Next we need to look at Bunker Down, a trait with outdated themes and is likewise attempting to pit itself against a much more powerful and valuable trait with similar success.

Now before you say, What about Auto-Defense Bomb Dispenser?? I should clarify that it is not in need of any improvements, or heaven help us a rework but simply has been waiting for a single change that would allow it to finally take its place as a powerful and beneficial trait. This change would be to split Over Shield and move part of it to a minor trait in the trait-line, specifically the part that improves Protection by 20%. Now before you go write an angry reply about how this change will ruin the meta! Or the trait theme! Or something of that sort let me explain, all this change would do is allow you to run Inventions without feeling forced to take Shield to get the juicy benefits of 20% stronger Protection. It doesn't remove any of the themes from Over Shield and allows you the option of running Auto-Defense Bomb Dispenser with Rifle or some other weapon combination that doesn't involve Shield. Now it does make builds that run Inventions with anything other then Alchemy stronger but I don't see any issue there considering there are none. It does improve Medkit Scrapper marginally by letting it benefit from 20% stronger protection while running Hammer but I think in this case it's worth the cost of buffing Medkit Scrapper to allow Inventions the freedom to function smoothly with Firearms, Explosives, and Tools.

Now back more about the two traits that do need improvement in Inventions, I haven't the slightest idea what should be done about Automated Medical Response. But I do however have a very good idea for Bunker Down, I think the old Deployable Turrets trait ought to be brought back in installed here instead of the Tools trait-line, makes a bit of sense to have both traits that improve Turrets to be in the trait-line dedicated to that don't you think? Now why is trait needed, well one of the main problems of Turrets is that they get instantly cleaved down when you attempt to use them in a build, this trait would help fix that problem. You might think it has anti-synergy with Experimental Turrets and Anticorrosion Plating but actually you get two trait configurations depending on what turrets you pick, if you're using ranged turrets more, you run Deployable Turrets and if you find yourself using melee or short range turrets then you would want to take Exparamental Turrets, see? makes sense, doesn't it.

Also don't forget about that pesky Cleansing Synergy which Anet forgot about when the buffed the radii of every other support related trait in Inventions but forgot about it!

I talk more in depth about my ideas for turret improvement in this post here. Feel free to take a look, I'd love to hear your thoughts!

 

TLDR for lazy people:

Inventions needs improvements, Inventions is almost never used except with Alchemy. Inventions is semi-reliant on Alchemy for allied healing, Alchemy has many strong synergies with Inventions which is good. Inventions is rarely used with the other trait-lines because Alchemy has powerful Elixir skills, best option would be improve the Turret skills and the Tools trait-line. The strongest trait in Inventions works best with the Shield weapon putting weapon combinations like Rifle, Pistol/Pistol, Mace/Pistol, Sword/Pistol, and Hammer at a disadvantage. Inventions has two weak traits, Automated Medical Response and Bunker Down. Bunker Down should be replaced with Deployable Turrets. Splitting Over Shield and moving the 20% Protection improvement part to a minor trait in Inventions will make it easier to run Automated Medical Response and Auto-Defense Bomb Dispenser. Anet forgot about Cleansing Synergy when they buffed support traits.

Edited August 27, 2022 by SleepyBat.9034
Word Clarification, added TLDR for lazy people.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

Inventions is almost never used except with Alchemy which is obviously a red flag that something might not be quite right

Mostly becasue inventions is def tree

-> in open word you not neesesary need def as def provides you role dedicated to it, and mobs expect of some places in hot not nessesary hit you that much to take adional defence over your utylity skills

-> in pvp/wvw inventions are picked more often even as dps due condi cleanse 

 

other then that, you need work at shorting your text othervise not many ppl will read it 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Noah Salazar.5430

[SleepyBat.9034]

7 hours ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

you need work at shorting your text othervise not many ppl will read it 

Fine, I will add a TLDR.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

12 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Sorry for the long read, but there is a lot to cover.

 No need to be sorry. Long text means you have spend a lot of time pondering about that topic.

12 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Inventions is almost never used except with Alchemy which is obviously a red flag that something might not be quite right here.

Whenever someone claims an skill/trait to be 100 % trash, I know of builds and people who can prove this statement wrong. Most topics in the class-boards focus about the meta as the only way of playing the game. Ignoring all the players who just do not do it and still have a great time. 

12 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

There are many reason why this is the case, most notably is the fact that Inventions is semi-reliant on Alchemy for allied healing which is a bit odd because Inventions is listed as focusing on healing and Alchemy is not, perhaps it should focus on healing allies and Alchemy should have more selfish healing options? Anyway, another good reason why these two trait-lines are often paired is that Alchemy has many strong synergies with Inventions which isn't actually a bad thing.

Alchemy should be a boon & cleanse/corrupt traitline. But the Engineer traits are a little messy in general, compared to other classes. Before we can start reworking the trait-lines, they should re-organize them. Sort skills/effects by type and slot them into the right trait lines. In Inventions, we have ABD and Bunker Down, which are basically 'borrowed' from the Explosives traitline.

In my opinion, Inventions should not have any explosions and also not Anticorrosion Planting. That is a cleansing trait and makes more sense in Alchemy. Alchemy on the other hand has Health Insurance which is technically a kit-trait, so it would fit in the Tools traitline. Or in the Inventions, as it is a healing(-kit) improvement. Backpack Regenerator same situation. Technically a kit trait => Tools. Or in the Inventions, as it is a healing improvement. 

12 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I believe a more delicate option would be improve the Turret skill type and the Tools trait-line, I think the majority of Gadgets do not need improvement and are rarely chosen not because they are bad but because the Tools trait-line is in need of some adjustments. The second reason is because the strongest trait in Inventions works best with the Shield weapon which puts weapon combinations like Rifle, Pistol/Pistol, Mace/Pistol, Sword/Pistol, and Hammer at a disadvantage.

A couple of months ago, balance team pointed out that they wanted to stop with the weapon-enhancer traits. I do not know how far the concept went. They have applied it to 1-2 traits iirc? Maybe it is already off the list again ^^. But if they would apply this strategy to e. g. Overshield it would probably results in a baseline reduction of the shield cooldown and a protection application on certain skill-types, e. g. blocks. In that case, Hammer would benefit from the trait. If we would also include reflection & projectile block skills, we would have plenty of new ways of applying protection with various different setups that do not necessarily require a shield. 

12 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

And finally we need to look at traits that are in need of improvement in the Inventions trait-line, starting with Automated Medical Response. This trait has high internal cooldown, marginal effects and is attempting to compete with the strongest trait in its tier (Over Shield) without much success thanks to being completely out of its league. Next we need to look at Bunker Down, a trait with outdated themes and is likewise attempting to pit itself against a much more powerful and valuable trait with similar success.

The usefulness of AMR is quite limited. There are a few setups, where this trait can come in handy. Most are in sPvP where it can be game changing to use your healing skill twice in a row. My approach of enhancing AMR would be to turn the heal-skill into an ammo skill, no matter what is slotted in. Modified cooldown for the heal-skills. That way it would be a trade off, but one we could handle on our own.

12 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Now before you say, What about Auto-Defense Bomb Dispenser?? I should clarify that it is not in need of any improvements, or heaven help us a rework but simply has been waiting for a single change that would allow it to finally take its place as a powerful and beneficial trait. This change would be to split Over Shield and move part of it to a minor trait in the trait-line, specifically the part that improves Protection by 20%. Now before you go write an angry reply about how this change will ruin the meta! Or the trait theme! Or something of that sort let me explain, all this change would do is allow you to run Inventions without feeling forced to take Shield to get the juicy benefits of 20% stronger Protection. It doesn't remove any of the themes from Over Shield and allows you the option of running Auto-Defense Bomb Dispenser with Rifle or some other weapon combination that doesn't involve Shield. Now it does make builds that run Inventions with anything other then Alchemy stronger but I don't see any issue there considering there are none. It does improve Medkit Scrapper marginally by letting it benefit from 20% stronger protection while running Hammer but I think in this case it's worth the cost of buffing Medkit Scrapper to allow Inventions the freedom to function smoothly with Firearms, Explosives, and Tools.

That would be acceptable. 
-
Many interesting ideas. Thanks for sharing.

[SleepyBat.9034]

36 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Whenever someone claims an skill/trait to be 100 % trash, I know of builds and people who can prove this statement wrong. Most topics in the class-boards focus about the meta as the only way of playing the game. Ignoring all the players who just do not do it and still have a great time. 

Hence why I said "almost" I did not say it was 100% trash, I started this game playing Engineer and I have used Inventions with other trait-lines before but it's still sad to see 0 metabuilds that use Inventions with anything other then Alchemy.

41 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Alchemy should be a boon & cleanse/corrupt traitline. But the Engineer traits are a little messy in general, compared to other classes. Before we can start reworking the trait-lines, they should re-organize them. Sort skills/effects by type and slot them into the right trait lines. In Inventions, we have ABD and Bunker Down, which are basically 'borrowed' from the Explosives traitline.

I don't think giving Engineer great access to both boons and corrupts is a good idea and I never said the trait-lines needed a rework, I said improvement. I feel like ABD belongs in the defensive trait-line, really they should incorporate Protection Injection into it so that people stop taking Alchemy for a defensive trait-line when it isn't.

I've been trying to avoid advocating for reworks because I don't think we really need them, I believe most of Engineers problems can be solved without changing very much, reworks should be limited to skills or traits that are fundamentally broken and can not be improved without making them oppressive.

45 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

In my opinion, Inventions should not have any explosions and also not Anticorrosion Planting. That is a cleansing trait and makes more sense in Alchemy. Alchemy on the other hand has Health Insurance which is technically a kit-trait, so it would fit in the Tools traitline. Or in the Inventions, as it is a healing(-kit) improvement. Backpack Regenerator same situation. Technically a kit trait => Tools. Or in the Inventions, as it is a healing improvement. 

Anticorrosion Plating functions best in the defensive trait-line that generates Protection, moving it to Alchemy just makes the synergy stronger, it's not a good idea to have all the related traits in the same trait-line or it would be impossible to form well rounded builds. Backpack Regenerator makes sense in the trait-line dedicated to selfish sustain, I don't like that they made Medical Dispersion Field dependent on Alchemy to function. I guess Anet really wants you to take both trait-lines to have a functioning support build.

52 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

A couple of months ago, balance team pointed out that they wanted to stop with the weapon-enhancer traits. I do not know how far the concept went. They have applied it to 1-2 traits iirc? Maybe it is already off the list again ^^. But if they would apply this strategy to e. g. Overshield it would probably results in a baseline reduction of the shield cooldown and a protection application on certain skill-types, e. g. blocks. In that case, Hammer would benefit from the trait. If we would also include reflection & projectile block skills, we would have plenty of new ways of applying protection with various different setups that do not necessarily require a shield.

I don't know how I feel about that balance philosophy.

57 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

The usefulness of AMR is quite limited. There are a few setups, where this trait can come in handy. Most are in sPvP where it can be game changing to use your healing skill twice in a row. My approach of enhancing AMR would be to turn the heal-skill into an ammo skill, no matter what is slotted in. Modified cooldown for the heal-skills. That way it would be a trade off, but one we could handle on our own.

I don't know, that sounds like it would be very broken. What about all the other traits that lower the cooldowns for healskills? I think I may be misunderstanding you but what you're suggesting sounds insanely broken.

Well you've given me some interesting ideas to think about, I think we may need to look at Alchemy some to see if we can release the strangle hold it has on Inventions.