Mesmer in Reality

[Salt Mode.3780]

Sigh its this dude again, its the same dude that complains how bad rangers are and comes into mesmer forum to say how great we are...jfc I cant with this dude...

[Mell.4873]

23 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sigh its this dude again, its the same dude that complains how bad rangers are and comes into mesmer forum to say how great we are...jfc I cant with this dude...

I do the opposite. I have agreed with you all that Mesmer is in a worse state than it was at its peak. I also love and main Ranger after I quit using Mesmer in all game modes except Fractals/Strikes/Raids.

I think you have also criticized me because I don't main Mesmer anymore even though its not that relevant.

[Varis.5467]

18 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Fractals
Well tick another person who uses Chronomancer in Fractals (me).
Virtuoso is definitely the most common class for fractals I agree.

The real problem with Fractals is that you are limited to number of classes you can bring so the performance or liability each person has is high. This is why when you do Fractal CM you always interrogate peoples builds and never trust anyone who plays Mesmer due to how difficult it is to play this class.
The one exception is Virtuoso (only at the surface level)

 

WvW/PvP
Claiming the class is bad in WvW is purely false. Mesmer has both some of the best dueling/roaming builds while having Chronomancer one of the best WvW Zerg Elites.
For Dueling Mesmer needs an escort to soak up damage, in sPvP that normally means Duo que with a tanky class like Guardian or Warrior. The reason Mesmer perception is so bad is because people get caught out. I have seen Mesmer in Gold 3 and Duo que is how they achieve it.
For WvW Chronomancer has some of the best WvW Zerg utilities in the game, it isn't about how powerful they are, it is the skill coverage and the ability for Chronomancer to reset them very quickly. The amazing thing is they are mostly Core Utilities so that means you can easily play Mirage (maybe not Virtuoso for a big Zerg).

Fact check:

 

1. Mesmer is THE class that have trouble chasing down enemies who are unwilling to fight while roaming thanks to both powercreep and the numerous nerfs. This applies to all 3 specs and especially mirage. 

 

2. Any organised wvw group would not run more than two chronos as there are far better classes for alac on top of cleanse AND healingny once you have capped out on utilities(if they even choose to run an off tag chrono). Any additional mes in a zerg is redundant and a waste on sustain that could have been reserved for other classes. 

 

3. Seeing one or two mes in gold 3 does not mean mesmers are fine. A small number of samples is not an accurate representation of the state of the class. In fact, if you actually consider the ratio of other classes vs mesmer in said tier you will see how selectively bias your statement is. 

 

4. The difficulty of a class is subjective. However, the reason why you don't see mes in CM is that for the same amount of effort, you would simply yield better results on other classes (and therefore more efficient). 

 

OP should analysis the situations and factors holistically instead of honing in on a few selected points. All classes function in respond to elements both within the class mechanic AND their environments simotaineouslly; making judgiments with no practical context does not contribute to any meaningful discussion and only shows your ignorance on the topic. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by xxXLightningXxx.8476

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, xxXLightningXxx.8476 said:

OP should analysis the situations and factors holistically instead of honing in on a few selected points. All classes function in respond to elements both within the class mechanic AND their environments simotaineouslly; making judgiments with no practical context does not contribute to any meaningful discussion and only shows your ignorance on the topic. 

I agree and again my point was never that Mesmer was OP it was the Class Spread.

A competent Mesmer player could play the class in every gamemode. Of coarse there is always going to be something better but I'm not claiming Mesmer is best in slot for any role. Ultimately isn't that was you want, playing one class really well is infinitely better that playing HB for the odd times you play Fractals.

6 hours ago, xxXLightningXxx.8476 said:

1. Mesmer is THE class that have trouble chasing down enemies who are unwilling to fight while roaming thanks to both powercreep and the numerous nerfs. This applies to all 3 specs and especially mirage. 

 

2. Any organised wvw group would not run more than two chronos as there are far better classes for alac on top of cleanse AND healingny once you have capped out on utilities(if they even choose to run an off tag chrono). Any additional mes in a zerg is redundant and a waste on sustain that could have been reserved for other classes. 

 

3. Seeing one or two mes in gold 3 does not mean mesmers are fine. A small number of samples is not an accurate representation of the state of the class. In fact, if you actually consider the ratio of other classes vs mesmer in said tier you will see how selectively bias your statement is. 

 

4. The difficulty of a class is subjective. However, the reason why you don't see mes in CM is that for the same amount of effort, you would simply yield better results on other classes (and therefore more efficient). 

Okay the Facts

1. I'm not to sure why you want to chase people, Roaming is normally about Dueling/Surviving. Chasing kills is not really your Job, especially when the Mesmer burst is so crazy you should be downing them right away.
2. Okay... Its still a Valid pick for WvW Zergs. I mean if you are trying to balance your squads Boon application that is one thing but it doesn't invalidate Chronomancer.
3. Honestly you are right, I cant find any metrics that shows the numbers. The best I could find was the number of builds posted to Metabattle, that stands as the best evidence. Anecdotally I see a lot more than one or two, also i dont use Mesmer in PvP what so ever.
4. Its really only CM 100 that you need to be super picky. I have done all the other Fractals CMs with every role as a Mesmer. CM 100 I have only ever done as a Alacrity Mirage (failed it most of the time).

Edited November 23, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Varis.5467]

36 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I agree and again my point was never that Mesmer was OP it was the Class Spread.

A competent Mesmer player could play the class in every gamemode. Of coarse there is always going to be something better but I'm not claiming Mesmer is best in slot for any role. Ultimately isn't that was you want, playing one class really well is infinitely better that playing HB for the odd times you play Fractals.

Okay the Facts

1. I'm not to sure why you want to chase people, Roaming is normally about Dueling/Surviving. Chasing kills is not really your Job, especially when the Mesmer burst is so crazy you should be downing them right away.
2. Okay... Its still a Valid pick for WvW Zergs. I mean if you are trying to balance your squads Boon application that is one thing but it doesn't invalidate Chronomancer.
3. Honestly you are right, I cant find any metrics that shows the numbers. The best I could find was the number of builds posted to Metabattle, that stands as the best evidence. Anecdotally I see a lot more than one or two, also i dont use Mesmer in PvP what so ever.
4. Its really only CM 100 that you need to be super picky. I have done all the other Fractals CMs with every role as a Mesmer. CM 100 I have only ever done as a Alacrity Mirage (failed it most of the time).

1. When your opponent has advantage (control) over when and where they want to enter and exit a fight, your effectiveness as a roamer is diminished. Your havoc play becomes largely dependent on your luck to avoid other roaming classes that could continuously prevent you from scouting, soloing camps, opening walls and TAKING OUT ENEMY'S ROAMERS. If you actually played mesmer in wvw at any capacity and in current times you should know the so called 'mesmer burst' requires you to blow most of your CDs and your escapes offensively to even ATTEMPT a kill, on top of which the age old meme 'one shot' combo is highly telegraphed. 

 

2. No one is arguing about the viability of Chronos in zerg, but they also stop being viable when your utility to combat ratio is off. The mesmer is reduced to a niche utility bot with no other roles in a fight comp, and this is the problem spelled out plain and simple. 

 

3. So even you admit your points on PvP are largely irrelevant then. The best mes build on Metabattle can still perform worst among all other classes; all Metabattle is telling you is that "if you must play mesmer in pvp, try these", no more, no less. 

 

4. Sorry, selectivity or what you called 'being picky' is exactly what viability is about. Your statement about mesmer being 'good enough' except X situation fundamentally defeats the entire purpose of your post. Besides, while it may be true that some few mesmer set up could go through a few CMs, the fact that you are bringing something sub-optimal and by extension placing that much more pressure on your other four party members remains. The brutal truth is, these so called 'viable' specs are 'carryable' at best, and tolerated only because some players are nice enough to not make a fuss. 

[Mell.4873]

On 11/24/2022 at 12:03 PM, xxXLightningXxx.8476 said:

1. When your opponent has advantage (control) over when and where they want to enter and exit a fight, your effectiveness as a roamer is diminished. Your havoc play becomes largely dependent on your luck to avoid other roaming classes that could continuously prevent you from scouting, soloing camps, opening walls and TAKING OUT ENEMY'S ROAMERS. If you actually played mesmer in wvw at any capacity and in current times you should know the so called 'mesmer burst' requires you to blow most of your CDs and your escapes offensively to even ATTEMPT a kill, on top of which the age old meme 'one shot' combo is highly telegraphed. 

 

2. No one is arguing about the viability of Chronos in zerg, but they also stop being viable when your utility to combat ratio is off. The mesmer is reduced to a niche utility bot with no other roles in a fight comp, and this is the problem spelled out plain and simple. 

 

3. So even you admit your points on PvP are largely irrelevant then. The best mes build on Metabattle can still perform worst among all other classes; all Metabattle is telling you is that "if you must play mesmer in pvp, try these", no more, no less. 

 

4. Sorry, selectivity or what you called 'being picky' is exactly what viability is about. Your statement about mesmer being 'good enough' except X situation fundamentally defeats the entire purpose of your post. Besides, while it may be true that some few mesmer set up could go through a few CMs, the fact that you are bringing something sub-optimal and by extension placing that much more pressure on your other four party members remains. The brutal truth is, these so called 'viable' specs are 'carryable' at best, and tolerated only because some players are nice enough to not make a fuss. 

Hmm I largely agree with everything you said but I will go back to Pessimism point. If all you look at is the negatives the Mesmer profession will go no where, its the same with me countering it by being too positive.

Mesmer is nether the best or worse pick for a given role, so you can always find something better (or worse). Its just a class that you can swap builds around in. I often find the best thing a Mesmer can do is change builds, even in sPvP where you cant during the game you can still try and change your match up by swapping pre-game.

Again I will back to my main Point, Mesmer can do everything.
In WvW which I do at least attempt to play Mesmer (not sPvP), I just swap between various stall playstyles. Chronomancer is more for large Zergs, Mirage for small skirmishes, Virtuoso for direct duels.
I play it all or nothing so if I get outplayed while then so be it, same way I play Untamed in WvW.

 

PS: If everyone spent all there time playing what is Meta then will leave the game when that Elite gets nerfed hence the Mesmer Pessimism.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Varis.5467]

9 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Hmm I largely agree with everyone you said but I will go back to Pessimism point. If all you look at is the negatives the Mesmer profession will go no where, its the same with me countering it by being too positive.

Mesmer is nether the best or worse pick for a given role, so you can always fine something better (or worse). Its just a class that you can swap builds around in. I often find the best thing a Mesmer can do is change builds, even in sPvP where you cant during the game you can still try and change your match up by swapping pre-game.

Again I will back to my main Point, Mesmer can do everything.
In WvW which I do at least attempt to play Mesmer (not sPvP), I just swap between various stall playstyles. Chronomancer is more for large Zergs, Mirage for small skirmishes, Virtuoso for direct duels.
I play it all or nothing so if I get outplayed while then so be it, same way I play Untamed in WvW.

 

PS: If everyone spent all there time playing what is Meta then will leave the game when that Elite gets nerfed hence the Mesmer Pessimism.

As a notable number of people in this post and other posts has pointed out (and in response to you specifically) we are not focusing on the shorts of mesmer because we are "pessimistic". Those of us who main mesmers wants to see the class brought inline with other classes and frankly, talking about what needs to be addressed IS the only channel to communicate this to Anet.

 

When there is something you want changing, you don't advocate it by sitting silently for the sake of "optimism", and Anet needs to know what is not working.