Is Sand Shade meant to be this spammy?

[Calen.8945]

I just picked up Scourge, and while I like the class, the class mechanics feels very spammy. I barely have time to use my other skills (scepter and torch) before I have to recast my shade. I've gone with using the GM trait Sand Servant, as I don't even know how people get three shade out before they despawn. I know you count as a shade yourself so I can at least use the other class skills without too much issue, but I'm starting to wonder if I should stop trying to keep Shade out 100% of the time.

Thoughts?

Edit: Sorry if this topic was talked about to dead here, I haven't read over them.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Calen.8945

[Gaeb.2837]

See other threads on the topic - this is a recent change and ~universally hated. It used to be 20 second duration, now you need to cast it every 8s.

I haven't seen anyone like this change.   

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Gaeb.2837

[Calen.8945]

Just now, Gaeb.2837 said:

It used to be 20 second duration

Oh god, why would they change that. 20s would solve all my problems with this class.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

They're butchering support scourge to the best of their ability.
Ressing gutted, barriers gutted.

And now what defined the e-spec and made it unique - ability to place shades and support allies that aren't stacked in one place - that too.
Terrible change.

[Gendalfs.7521]

One thing I dont understand is the logic of this: from 20 to 8 theres 12 numbers. Like 15, 12...

[Dadnir.5038]

If one understand properly the June folllow up patch notes, you're supposed to lay down a single shade every 8s. Whether one find doing such a thing "spammy" or not is up to each individual. It leave you with 2 charges of manifest sand shade which can allow you to occasionally "burst" if needed. In other word, it's ressource management.

28 minutes ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

One thing I dont understand is the logic of this: from 20 to 8 theres 12 numbers. Like 15, 12...

20s was the time it took the average scourge to get all their manifest sand shade charge refreshed (the average scourge take soul reaping which come with a free CD reduction to your manifest sand shade CD). 8s is the base CD of a single shade (6.5s with soul reaping).

It's not complicated to understand, they just want scourge players to be more mindful of their shades and reserve the charges for when they need some kind of burst instead of laying all 3 shades every 20s and forget about them in between. This shade duration is a way to artificially reduce the average number of foes that the scourge is able to hit when spec'd for damage (demonic lore) or for sharing alacrity (desert empowerment) and give a tiny bit of edge to sand savant which was falling behind in usefulness. You're given the choice of whether you want to throw your 3 shades to potentially hit 12 foes for 8s and then be restrained to hitting 6 foes for quite a bit of time or whether you want to always hit 10 foes.

[Gaeb.2837]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It leave you with 2 charges of manifest sand shade which can allow you to occasionally "burst" if needed. In other word, it's ressource management.

No, that's not why they did it, lmao. Just think that through - you only get two tiny bursts for an entire 10+ min boss fight? Terrible design. No, they did it because they didn't want alac scourge giving alacrity to more than 5 targets, which is feasible with multiple shades up (barrier to more than 5 targets -> alac to more than 5 targets). Now, there are multiple other ways to solve that problem:

1. Only spawn barrier from the Scourge on F5 & F3 (and heck on shade placement) and hit 5 targets -> You don't go past the target cap with multiple shades up. I recommend this approach since it makes alac scourge more intuitive anyway (posted recs elsewhere). Or...
2. Limit scourges to just one shade at a time, placing a shade removes the old one.

Neither of those would have created the 'spammy' situation we have now which roundly has been decried as a painful, un-fun playstyle.

Quote

If one understand properly the June folllow up patch notes, you're supposed to lay down a single shade every 8s. Whether one find doing such a thing "spammy" or not is up to each individual.

Everyone finds it spammy.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Gaeb.2837

[Swan.9815]

11 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It's not complicated to understand, they just want scourge players to be more mindful of their shades and reserve the charges for when they need some kind of burst instead of laying all 3 shades every 20s and forget about them in between.

Did the balance team say that was their reasoning? Please provide a source for this extremally condescending claim. 

[Dadnir.5038]

13 hours ago, Gaeb.2837 said:

No, that's not why they did it, lmao. Just think that through - you only get two tiny bursts for an entire 10+ min boss fight?

That is not true. I do think you are the one that does not think thing through enough. With soul reaping alone you'll recover one of the extra charges every 20s. So basically it's a 2 charge burst every 40s. On a 10+ min boss fight (unrealistic time really unless your group really struggle hard) it's around 16 such bursts available.

You also seem to focus heavily on the idea that barrier output is target yet forget that it's not just desert empowerment as a source of barrier that's affected by the change.

13 hours ago, Gaeb.2837 said:

Now, there are multiple other ways to solve that problem

No, that's your favored solutions to go back to what scourge used to be because you're obviously unwilling to move on and adapt to what scourge is now.

13 hours ago, Gaeb.2837 said:

Everyone finds it spammy.

Between laying 1 shade every 8s and 3 every 20s there is not much difference in the spam. It's basically like you're saying that taking the trait Sand savant before the June patch made the scourge's gameplay spammy. You'll excuse me but I don't recall such claims associated to Sand savant over the last 5 years.

5 hours ago, Swan.9815 said:

Please provide a source for this extremally condescending claim.

Condescending? I do think you're using the term inappropriately. If anything I'm just fed up of a community that don't want to adapt to the cards they've been given.

The necromancer used to be a hundred time worse than he is right now. The only thing it was decent at was removing boons and taging zerg in WvW. Beyong that, it's support was inexistent. It's damage output barely reached 2/3rd of what the other professions (bared ranger and mesmer) could output. It's survivability was so abysmal that once downed it's foes only needed an additional hit to kill him. The only source of swiftness/mobility use to be tied to a skill that was putting you in combat. It used to have 0 cleaving AA... etc.

Despite all of that, the necromancer's community used to be motivated, constructive and realist. Eager to reach the same level as other professions yet having some respect for the concept of balance.

Now, Necromancer have multiple "meta" builds across all gamemodes. It's been given support. It no longer shoot himself in the knee when it come to mobility. It does have access to cleave and it has become incredibly sturdy compared to it's early years. It has already gone beyond the early necromancer's community's wildest dreams.

Scourge have been a balance nightmare for all of PoF duration, defining WvW almost by himself, ruining sPvP in many way and even managing to claim PvE's top spot after countless efforts were spent into proving the single minded PvE dps mentality wrong. Scourge needed nerfs and changes and he needed them as soon as 5 years ago. It's a relief that EoD finally bring to this spec what it needed to put it in an healthier spot in this game. Yes, it change the gameplay! Yes, it feel like unfair nerfs! But it's something needed.

[Swan.9815]

17 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Condescending? I do think you're using the term inappropriately.

con·de·scend·ing
adjective
having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.

You said "It's not hard to understand" followed by making up something to make yourself sound like you know something the rest of us don't. I'm struggling to see the difference between that and "You're all not understanding something only an enlightened one such as myself could understand." Seems pretty condescending to me. And now you're following up with a "back in my day" which is also full of condescension. 

17 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It's a relief that EoD finally bring to this spec what it needed to put it in an healthier spot in this game. Yes, it change the gameplay! Yes, it feel like unfair nerfs! But it's something needed.

Scourge is about to do an insanely unhealthy amount of damage after the next patch, what are you even talking about? It could have had this same damage buff without the shade duration nerf and nothing would be different except you wouldn't have to use a ground targeted skill with a cast time that interrupts everything every 6-8 seconds or lose the ability to use your class features.