Condi Renegade Cleanup

[Arsenal.5043]

TLDR: Jump to the I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM markers to see the question areas.

Hey all. I recently determined that my favorite build is the Condi Renegade so I've decided to really pay attention to this toon, get it fixed up right and learn to play it properly. I will never be a good player but I strive to be competent. I've been doing a lot of reading but still have the following items on which I could use an opinion. 

Character Profile
I am using the following build as my base: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Renegade_-_Condi_Renegade

I am an open world player. Metas, events and farming are my normal activities. I am not in a guild and don't run WvW, PvP, Fractals or Raids. I'm not very precise with skill rotations and I enjoy being careless. I'm wearing a full set of Yassith's including my shortbow. I only run shortbow with no alternate weapon. I am running back, rings, earrings and amulet as shown in the build or items with the same stats. Specializations are the same as the build.

Relics 
Build says to run a Relic of Akeem (confusion+torment when you disable an enemy). Darkrazor's Daring has a daze but I don't fire it very often because it's expensive. I didn't notice any other control effects that would fire the relic. Based on that I'm currently running a Relic of Aristocracy (%3 condi duration on weakeness or vuln) based on how often I use Icerazor's Ire. I also have a Relice of the Mirage (torment on evade) as I do roll around a lot but I'm not sure that's a quality choice.
I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM

Runes
Currently I have a full set of Superior Rune of the Berserker. Build says I should use Superior Rune of the Nightmare. Both have 25/50/100 condi damage at the 1/3/5 slots. However...

Berserker (slot/effect) - 2/35 power, 4/65 power and 6/125 condi
Nightmare (slot/effect) - 2/10% fear duration, 4/10 10% condi duration and 6/10% condi duration

Since I don't apply fear (that I know of) and based on my playing habits it seems like the 100 power and 125 condi outweighs 20% condi duration.
I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM

Sigils
Build says to use these:
- Superior Sigil of Earth (bleeding on crit)
- Superior Sigil of Doom (poison on weapon swap)

Earth seems to make a certain amount of sense. Since I don't weapon swap the Sigil of Doom is a nogo and I will replace it with Superior Sigil of Bursting or Superior Sigil of Torment (torment on crit). I'm leaning towards Sigil of Bursting as I'm not sure why +5% condi damage wouldn't be desirable. Build also says Superior Sigil of Draining (steal life on interrupt) is an option based on Darkrazor's Daring interrupts but I wasn't considering it because Darkrazor is expensive (30).

I have no problem replacing the two from the build with the alts (or other options) if that's the smart move. I avoid sigils that require a weapon swap, stance swap or some special situation for it to fire.
I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM.

Skill Rotation
In combat I run Renegade/Kalla stance almost exclusively. Don't run Demon Stance (from build) but instead run Assassin for Impossible Odds and Riposting Shadows for travel/escape.

My skill rotation is probably pretty bad. I almost always lead with Icerazor's Ire and then the weapon skills. I'm getting better at remembering to use Spiritcrush(4) (Combo field) before I use Sevenshot(3) (Combo finisher). I try to hit Bloodbane Path(2) whenever it's up and I use Scorchrazor for knockdown or when othere are on recharge. 

If I need to heal, Breakrazor's Bastion. I once used Soulcleaver Summit to heal frequently but all I hear is bad stuff about it so I've been laying off. Most of the time I completely forget about Heroic Command(F2), Citadel Bombardment(F3) and Orders from Above(F4). I've said a few times above I rarely use Darkrazor's Daring due to cost. Build says to basically ignore Razorclaw's Rage and I do.

In the build profile under Usage for Kalla, for Soulcleave's Summit, it says "we don't talk about this" and I'm not quite sure what that means. Could mean it's an automatic use and requires no comment or that it's so bad we never use it. Just curious.
I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM

If you read this far I thank you and if you've offered some thoughts or advice I really do appreciate it. Cheers!

Edited September 13, 2023 by Arsenal.5043
typo

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, Arsenal.5043 said:

TLDR: Jump to the I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM markers to see the question areas.

Hey all. I recently determined that my favorite build is the Condi Renegade so I've decided to really pay attention to this toon, get it fixed up right and learn to play it properly. I will never be a good player but I strive to be competent. I've been doing a lot of reading but still have the following items on which I could use an opinion. 

Character Profile
I am using the following build as my base: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Renegade_-_Condi_Renegade

I am an open world player. Metas, events and farming are my normal activities. I am not in a guild and don't run WvW, PvP, Fractals or Raids. I'm not very precise with skill rotations and I enjoy being careless. I'm wearing a full set of Yassith's including my shortbow. I only run shortbow with no alternate weapon. I am running back, rings, earrings and amulet as shown in the build or items with the same stats. Specializations are the same as the build.

Relics 
Build says to run a Relic of Akeem (confusion+torment when you disable an enemy). Darkrazor's Daring has a daze but I don't fire it very often because it's expensive. I didn't notice any other control effects that would fire the relic. Based on that I'm currently running a Relic of Aristocracy (%3 condi duration on weakeness or vuln) based on how often I use Icerazor's Ire. I also have a Relice of the Mirage (torment on evade) as I do roll around a lot but I'm not sure that's a quality choice.
I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM

Akeem also triggers off of Scorchrazor on your Shortbow. (and Temporal Rift if you choose to use Mace/Axe at some point).  For your build Rune of the Fractal (much more fire and forget) might be better, or you can just try to use Scorchrazor off CD for Akeem (since you're only using Shortbow)

3 hours ago, Arsenal.5043 said:

Runes

Currently I have a full set of Superior Rune of the Berserker. Build says I should use Superior Rune of the Nightmare. Both have 25/50/100 condi damage at the 1/3/5 slots. However...

Berserker (slot/effect) - 2/35 power, 4/65 power and 6/125 condi
Nightmare (slot/effect) - 2/10% fear duration, 4/10 10% condi duration and 6/10% condi duration

Since I don't apply fear (that I know of) and based on my playing habits it seems like the 100 power and 125 condi outweighs 20% condi duration.
I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM

Probably not a ton of difference, but I would run the setup Snowcrows provides, which is Vipers + Trapper runes. They tend to min-max better than Metabattle. For a full vipers open world setup for condi ren, you want maximum dps with any sustain choices being made through traits.

3 hours ago, Arsenal.5043 said:

Sigils

Build says to use these:
- Superior Sigil of Earth (bleeding on crit)
- Superior Sigil of Doom (poison on weapon swap)

Earth seems to make a certain amount of sense. Since I don't weapon swap the Sigil of Doom is a nogo and I will replace it with Superior Sigil of Bursting or Superior Sigil of Torment (torment on crit). I'm leaning towards Sigil of Bursting as I'm not sure why +5% condi damage wouldn't be desirable. Build also says Superior Sigil of Draining (steal life on interrupt) is an option based on Darkrazor's Daring interrupts but I wasn't considering it because Darkrazor is expensive (30).

I have no problem replacing the two from the build with the alts (or other options) if that's the smart move. I avoid sigils that require a weapon swap, stance swap or some special situation for it to fire.
I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM.

Geomancy and Torment are also options. The Metabattle option here is also wrong since the two sigil combos should be earth/geo and torment/doom.

Worth noting that Revenant DOES weapon swap even when it's only using one weapon. The Legend Swap also counts as a weapon swap and as such you could use your weapon swap sigils with a "Shortbow only" build. However, two things: 1) Geomancy is close range meaning you have to be close to hit with the proc from it  and 2) you do have to legend swap frequently if you want the full effects of swap sigils to be utilized.

If you want the easy option to this for open world, go with Earth/Torment as you won't have to worry about being close to your enemy or swapping legends constantly to be able to get the most out of your sigils then. But do be aware that no weapon swap/swap sigils is a fairly decent DPS loss overall.

3 hours ago, Arsenal.5043 said:

Skill Rotation

In combat I run Renegade/Kalla stance almost exclusively. Don't run Demon Stance (from build) but instead run Assassin for Impossible Odds and Riposting Shadows for travel/escape.

My skill rotation is probably pretty bad. I almost always lead with Icerazor's Ire and then the weapon skills. I'm getting better at remembering to use Spiritcrush(4) (Combo field) before I use Sevenshot(3) (Combo finisher). I try to hit Bloodbane Path(2) whenever it's up and I use Scorchrazor for knockdown or when othere are on recharge. 

If I need to heal, Breakrazor's Bastion. I once used Soulcleaver Summit to heal frequently but all I hear is bad stuff about it so I've been laying off. Most of the time I completely forget about Heroic Command(F2), Citadel Bombardment(F3) and Orders from Above(F4). I've said a few times above I rarely use Darkrazor's Daring due to cost. Build says to basically ignore Razorclaw's Rage and I do.

In the build profile under Usage for Kalla, for Soulcleave's Summit, it says "we don't talk about this" and I'm not quite sure what that means. Could mean it's an automatic use and requires no comment or that it's so bad we never use it. Just curious.
I WOULD LIKE ADVICE ON THIS ITEM

If you read this far I thank you and if you've offered some thoughts or advice I really do appreciate it. Cheers!

With a Devastation survival build for cRen your bread and butter skill is definitely Icerazor, especially when you're being pressured. In a solo situation this gives a big dps increase due to Vuln application while simultaneously lifestealing. Make sure to pair Icerazor with other "many hit" skills like Sevenshot, Spiritcrush, Darkrazor, Citadel Bombardment in order to proc as many of the lifesteal applications as you can before they drop off.

Darkrazor is actually REALLY good and you definitely should get in the habit of using it. It's a 6 hit 5 target AoE Daze which is awesome and it synergizes so well with Icerazor. Not only that but it shreds breakbars and also will essentially render a whole group of mobs useless for 6 seconds (provided they don't have defiance bars). This is definitely worth the 30e.

Razorclaw is good if you have extra energy. While solo, it's technically only worth 10 Bleed (if you make full use of it), but that's still a fair amount for only being worth 25 energy. If there are randoms around, your 10Bleed Razorclaw can quickly become a 20/30/40 or even 50Bleed Razorclaw which is A LOT. So it's situational, but definitely a big dps increase in crowds.

For Soulcleave, it's definitely a kitten skill now, but it's still useful-ish for survival. I would not use it offensively, but if you know you need to heal or are going to be pressured, it can be extra 700ish HPS which is not bad. It's not great, but it's also not bad. In combo with Icerazor and Breakrazor Soulcleave can help get you back to full quickly. Even if it only provides an extra 2-4k extra healing over its use period, that's far better than nothing, especially since there are moments in your rotation where there is effectively no other way to heal. But again, this is situational and I only find myself using it in 2023 in high pressure situations.

Lastly, unless  you're super concerned with Movement or Theme, I personally wouldn't run Kalla/Shiro. Shiro's only real use on a condi build (which Vipers IS a condi build, despite having hybrid stats; the strike damage contribution to overall dps is MINIMAL. I know everyone on the Rev forums likes to be like "Shortbow is a HYBRID weapon and does REALLY WELL with power stats," but this isn't really the case and people that are quoting these things aren't really looking at the numbers too closely). Similarly, while Vipers does have power/precision it's not a power damage build. On the full meta build Strike Damage only accounts for 15% of the overall DPS of the Vipers cRen. While using "Shortbow Only" would boost this a bit further due to the fact that Shortbow does have better Power Scaling than Mace/Axe, it still would likely only be a measly 20%ish of the overall possible damage (and since you're using Only Shortbow, the dps is already lower than Shortbow/Mace/Axe anyway).

My point here is that Shiro's Impossible Odds on a full Viper's build is not that good. I mean, it's fine if there are no other options and it's certainly better than Jalis's Vengeful Hammers, but it's definitely not better than Mallyx's Embrace the Darkness. So you're gimping yourself on damage if you take Shiro. The only thing that Shiro does well on this build for open world is provide you a way to get around a little faster and also allow you to proc your lifesteal stacks a little easier with Impossible Odds. But that's about it. The Sustain on Shiro is also abysmal; Enchanted Daggers is just generally bad.

Mallyx, while slower, DOES have movement with Call to Anguish (CtA). Another perk that Mallyx has over Shiro is the ability to pull enemies together with the same skill (CtA). This can make short work of whole groups of mobs quickly since you can pull up to 5 targets together and then smash them all with Embrace the Darkness + Sevenshot which at that distance all mushed together will hit every single one. The fact that Mallyx can pull enemies together makes the build soooo much better in terms of trash mobs than the Shiro variant ever could be. And again, to reiterate, Embrace the Darkness is also one of the premier condi dps skills Rev has allowing it to wrack up tons of Torment quickly in addition to all the other condis it's putting out. Shiro can't do that. While Mallyx's stunbreak is not necessarily as good as Shiro's, it's still quite decent and functional. Having the option to boon rip enemies can be extremely useful as well. Lastly, Mallyx's sustain tends to be better since Empowering Misery doesn't have any sort of conditions to fully utilize it (unlike Enchanted Daggers in which you have to continue attacking) and can also scale from conditions that are on you which can provide a bigger heal under the right circumstances. Personally, I strongly believe that Mallyx is the better choice for Open World unless you absolutely want the better movement from Shiro.

Edited September 13, 2023 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Arsenal.5043]

3 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Lastly, Mallyx's sustain tends to be better since Empowering Misery doesn't have any sort of conditions to fully utilize it (unlike Enchanted Daggers in which you have to continue attacking) and can also scale from conditions that are on you which can provide a bigger heal under the right circumstances. Personally, I strongly believe that Mallyx is the better choice for Open World unless you absolutely want the better movement from Shiro.

Lucian I can't thank you enough for all of the time you put into helping me out. I'm working my way through your comments now but I feel fortunately to receive assistance from someone who knows what they are doing. Very, very much appreciated. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 minutes ago, Arsenal.5043 said:

Lucian I can't thank you enough for all of the time you put into helping me out. I'm working my way through your comments now but I feel fortunately to receive assistance from someone who knows what they are doing. Very, very much appreciated. 

NP! And don't be afraid to mix it up if you need; my advice is only my experience over thousands and thousands of hours, but it's obviously not the Bible either. And It's also only open world after-all. The fact that you're interested in wearing full dps gear, with decent dps traits, and are looking to get better means you'll be doing more dps than 70-80% of players regardless, so if you need to make a modification like using Shiro instead of Mallyx, go for it! Just also be aware of what you're giving up to make those modifications; that makes for a very well rounded/good player.