Designing PvP to be fun to play

[Ario.8964]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Ario.8964 said:High risk, high reward disappeared with the introduction of elite specs. It allowed players to cover the biggest weaknesses of their class without sacrificing. What anet has done is by removing the old trait system and not creating a proper sacrifice system for elite specs (they should have removed more aspects of the original class mechanics in exchange for the elite mechanics, and should have removed skill types/ trait lines available for selection in exchange for elite access) is gotten themselves stuck in this cycle where elites are constantly dominating every core build out there because they have more utility, sustain, damage, mobility, etc built in naturally than core builds. (with the exception of a few specs like DH). Without a huge overhaul/ redesign of the system, they will not be able to achieve any sort of high risk/ high reward building system due to the fact that elites cover weaknesses built into classes to keep them in check (Example: engi was weak to condi and cc but was able to dish out large amounts of those itself. With the introduction of holo and scrapper engi got huge resistance buffs to conditions and cc without losing it's access to damage or cc). Elites simply made the game too safe for players, eliminating the need to sacrifice when making builds.

Pretty sure they are designed this way on purpose, just look to the English dictionary for a definition of the word "Elite" for evidence..You basically cant call them elite unless they out performed the counterparts, which is why they are called elite specs.

I mean for technical wording yes. Anet said, however, when they were introducing them the goal was to not make them an upgrade, simply used as a tool to open up other roles for classes to perform, which even that failed to happen (excluding tempest which was actually done pretty well in terms of giving it another role). Engi is still teamfight control and a little bit of skirmish, guard is still support or heavy burst, ele is still 1v1 side noder, ranger is still 1v1 side noder or gimmick 1 shot, necro is teamfight damage, etc. The specs ended up, instead of being alternate roles for the class to fill, as upgraded ways to perform their original roles that they've had since the game's beginning. Especs were, given those guidelines, a failure.

Words are empty though, its the action that matters, it always reveals the truth.

I'm not arguing with you on that. I agree anet showed their hand with how they are going to manage elites. It is quite a shame though, could've been a cool system for a cool game...

[darwinslittlehelper.7182]

@Ario.8964 said:What would've been good for elites would have been removing access to the professions' line that buffed their main mechanic (for engi it'd be tools, thieves would lose trickery, wars lose discipline, etc.) losing a skill set, and then actually changing the mechanics of the class when they had the elite spec rather than just an upgraded version of what their mechanics were previously. Even looking at chrono when it was introduced, it literally just added a shatter onto their bar of existing shatters. Druid just gave ranger a free healing form on top of their pet mechanics and such. It's all just bad design and at this point I doubt anet will ever fix it, especially considering they can't even balance between elites atm.

I see we are entirely on the same page. Well said. Though, it still could be applied...can you imagine the rage of some posters if their class actually had restrictions and meaningful choices? :)

[StabbersTheThird.6053]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Eme.2018 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:High risk high reward is a oxymoron. Anything that is high risk is by definition non-competitive and non-viable. The entire purpose of strategies, build crafting, and team comps is to reduce the amount of risk.

I think the OP doesn't mean that everything (or anything) must be high risk - high reward but rather that

you shouldn't be able to reduce risk without compromising reward and you shouldn't be able to maximize reward without introducing more risk.

Define "reward" in the context of GW2 buildcrafting

I can start you off super easy. It's so easy, I now main this class. Mesmer. Because I'm bad at explaining things, I am going to simplify for my sake (not yours) so that I don't overstep what I can explain to a reasonable extent. Feel absolutely free to correct me if I do because all of this is opinion based on evidence. If you do not wish to read ahead, the main idea is this : I believe a "reward" in GW2 builds is acting and being rewarded for acting, but not being rewarded for not acting. I.e. passive benefits for little more trade off then "I took this trait, so I get this because I exist" is not a risk. It is a reward with no risk. This can be argued to some extents, and not to others.

A Good trait line because of Minors: Domination. Minor 1, vulnerability when you interrupt an enemy. Minor 2, vulnerability when you daze an enemy. Minor 3, vulnerability is even better for you specifically. That's great. That's all reward oriented, but it also requires you DO something. That's good design. Because you must ACT, you are therefore rewarded. Continue reading all the majors- they are ALL offense oriented. That's good. Offense means you act, and thus should be rewarded.

A singular bad trait that is also a minor is in Chronomancer. Minor trait 3, gain 25% more movespeed AND movespeed inflictions have less effect on you. You have done nothing to earn either of these, they are granted to you. You do not ACT, but are still rewarded.

Mirage is completely fine trait wise. It makes you act and react. Playing the game gives you rewards as opposed to being rewarded for playing the game. However, the mechanic of Mirage Cloak is slightly unfair. Yes, you must act but you are also granted the ability to act while acting. Without sacrificing anything, you are given the free reward of being able to dodge while in nearly any state (I do not believe you can Mirage Cloak mid-launch or mid-float). This mitigates risk while offering reward. The idea behind Mirage Cloak however is fantastic. You sacrifice a safety option to output more damage. Therefore you put yourself at more risk (-1 dodge) to gain more reward (Scepter example: 1 shot of torment for multiple shots of torment and confusion). I think the only change Mirage needs (and then I would THOROUGHLY buff Elusive Mind if I were this dev to compensate, while probably buffing the Ambush skills (The boosted skills after dodge? Right name?)) is taking away their ability to dodge while fully disabled (Stun, Launch, Float, Sink, Pull, Push, Knockdown, Knockback, etc: Daze and weaker cc's would be fine). This is my beef personally. I can take it, but it is annoying.

I'm awful at explaining myself, but hopefully I provided an adequate definition. I know I will get nuked for this by other Mesmer players to which I say: I am a Mesmer player too these days.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Bort.8647 said:Moderately un-fun: Visual Noise/skill effectsIn teamfights, things like scourge aoe spam, mesmer clone spam, and holo forge/utility skills add a lot of extra skill and particle effects. This makes it difficult to spot other important skills and character animations you need to avoid.When you can't see the telegraph due to all the telegraph in the way.What is fun: Reasonable counterplay options and high risk - high reward design.High risk high reward is a oxymoron. Anything that is high risk is by definition non-competitive and non-viable. The entire purpose of strategies, build crafting, and team comps is to reduce the amount of risk.

That sum up the whole concept of meta quite nicely

[Arheundel.6451]

@Bazooka.3590 said:lulz for 7 years we are suggested a hundred thousand things how to not kill pvp but anet just did nothing at all. PVP team sadly a bunch of super lazy good for nothing ppl and they dont care about the game. I don't know why are they employed at all.

There billion of examples in RL where you ask yourself the same question : how did they get there?

[TorQ.7041]

@"Bort.8647" said:I am not new to pvp, but im not a veteran player either. I thought i would take the time to list the main things that i consider to be "not fun". These things have made me want to quit pvp most days i play, and while some are a l2p issue, i think others are just poor competitive design.

The least fun: Not being able to attack/find your target.Stealth and target break. This applies mostly to thieves and mes, but to me nothing is less fun than being in a fight with no reasonable counterplay. spamming dodge while waiting for a deadeye to try and shoot you from 1500 range, or wading through a mess of clones being spammed in your face trying to click on the mesmer is pretty much never fun.

Not very fun at all: CC spamThis is the case in a lot of different competitive games, but loss of character control is never fun to experience. My main concern with this is the power creep of cc skills. With elite specs, it seems that there are just more and more ways to completely lock someone down, since some classes have way more cc than opponents have stunbreaks/stab. While veteran players might be able to recognize and avoid cc skills, newer or the average casual player will likely struggle with it for a while, and making one mistake can result in losing the fight.

Moderately un-fun: Visual Noise/skill effectsIn teamfights, things like scourge aoe spam, mesmer clone spam, and holo forge/utility skills add a lot of extra skill and particle effects. This makes it difficult to spot other important skills and character animations you need to avoid.

What is fun: Reasonable counterplay options and high risk - high reward design.Some classes like power rev, core guard, mender sword weaver, and d/p thief are very fun to fight. Most fights i have against these builds are won by the more skilled player, and you are heavily rewarded for anticipating your opponent correctly. d/p thief is a good example of high risk - high reward. You can be very powerful in a fight, but can also die very easily if you get caught or make a mistake. Mender sword weaver would be the opposite of low risk - low reward. You are very survivable, but will likely have difficulty winning any fight quickly and efficiently.

I play deadeye. I also play other stuff. No need to spam dodge. Just wait. Once mark hits u. U have 1 second. Just dodge, reflect or block that n the deadeye doesn't have a burst for a while. The moment u aoe on it. It will shadowstep out and will basically die if u hit him again.

Core guard is prob easiest. Block,port then Unload burst. Vs DE. The only class that basically loses straight up would be necro.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

It's really just a lack of counterplay that makes certain builds so hated. If you look at the builds that get the most call for nerfs throughout the years it's usually the builds that have nothing to realistically stop them from spamming their best move since there is little to no counter to said best move.

Deadeye is a very good example of this because IMO Deadeye isn't even very good and isn't considered meta, and yet people absolutely despise it constantly calling for a nerf. Why? Because the perma stealth means they can just rotate stealth+DJ over and over again spamming the rotation until it finally oneshots somebody. It's just bad for the game because it promotes non-interactive fights, regardless of whether or not it is "balanced".