@ANet: please rethink European server pairing

Condensing 24 American servers and 27 European servers into 4-5 tiers à 3 servers using Glicko was probably a good thing. On each side of the pond 12 servers are paired with one or even two others to form one of the remaining 12 or 15 warring parties.

Maybe the Glicko system works as intended on the American side. On the European side however, its results are seriously impaired by a needless restriction. The reason is simple: European server linking is done categorically along language lines! This drastically limits the number of potential pairings and thus render the results subpar or even unfair. Your temporary manual adjustments, announced last on April 14th 2017, doesn't seem to alleviate the problem.

• 5 French servers are paired so they form 2 of the remaining 15 parties;• 7 German servers are paired so they form 5 of the remaining 15 parties;• the one Spanish server is cursed to always fend for itself;

This strict thinking along the lines of language "barriers" forces you to always pair the 14 "international" servers so they fill the remaining 7 slots in the roster. It's obvious this system cannot yield the best results.

Surely there were good intentions at heart when this system was set up. Maybe it was thought players of different language backgrounds shouldn't be forced to deal with one another. Maybe it was thought we don't get along with each other. Don't worry! Europeans are used to a lot of neighbours speaking in different tongues and we are fine with it. In fact, in every other Guild Wars section, whether in structured PvP or PvE we already play and cooperate alongside each other regardless of language. Furthermore, every one of the 14 "international" European servers which are paired together in WvW consists of players coming from countries ranging from Russia to Portugal speaking many different languages. If they can do it so can the French, Germans and Spanish.

Suggestion: please disregard language designations when pairing WvW servers!

It opens up new options and helps the system to reach its full potential.

I know players from different countries and using different languages can play well together, but I think you are forgetting why German, French and Spanish servers are difficult to combine with international server. GW2 client is playable in DE, FR and SP besides EN. When normally, lets say Russian player plays the game, all the maps and interface is still in English. So until they understand enough English, they will react same way into call for "20 Blue at Bay South, 2 catas up, wall 70%". However, if you group together FR, DE and EN clients into single server, nobody understand anything about that. Each language has different names in the map, different UI, and non-english players are not suppose to learn English before starting to play, because game is supported in their native language.

There are already many German, French or Spanish speaking players playing in International servers. And they are doing fine, because everyone is expected to speak English in public channels (not completely sure if their game client must be set to EN or not). However, it would be quite difficult to achieve same for players who use client with native language. Why would Spanish player who has played the game for years in Spanish, has all the gear named in Spanish, all the skills in Spanish, all WvW terms in Spanish, start to swap into English or German because half the population in the server speaks different language?

The ammount of players that don't speak english amongst those servers is higher than you might expect. Although the majority will know some english, a lot of people won't be able to express themselves.

It doesn't really matter what language your client runs on in order to cooperate with other players in WvW. I think the whole point was it already happens in every other game mode like PvE or sPvP. Particularly in sPvP the level of communication necessary between players to be successful against the other group is much higher than in WvW. ANet doesn't see a problem in pairing players from different countries using different languages in the game client for PvP matches. So why is the linking of European servers in WvW done strictly along the lines of language designations?

Besides, south of the US are many countries predominantly speaking Spanish. Do you think the Guild Wars player base from Latin America all uses the European server Baruch Bay since that is the only server designated to be Spanish? Most Hispanics probably linked their account to a US server. Now I leave it to your imagination how many of them run their client in Spanish and not in English. Is ANet trying to separate Spanish speaking players from the ones using English in WvW on the American side? No, so why do they try this in Europe? It doesn't make much sense.

Additionally, the level of language skills among European players is probably higher than one might think. If a Hungarian can play together with an Italian using an English game client (the Italian might even prefer to use the Spanish or French client) than surely a German can play together with a Spaniard or whatever pairing is required in order to better balance out the European WvW linkings.

PS: I come from Switzerland. We have four official languages: German, French, Italian and Romansh and I am posting this in English. Although I am not fluent in all of them I am happy to play with whatever players ANet is pairing me in WvW. The important thing is: the server linkings in WvW must feel balanced for everyone. For many months now, it feels out of balance particularly for those servers who apparently never get linked to anyone else regardless of their performance.

It works perfectly!The French seem to be fine since their 5 servers are always paired with each other no matter what.The Spaniards seem to be fine too since their numbers are propped up very comfortably by players from Latin America or Italy.So let us screw the three German servers who never get paired till kingdom come!^^

@JackBeauregard.6952 said:PS: I come from Switzerland. We have four official languages: German, French, Italian and Romansh and I am posting this in English. Although I am not fluent in all of them >I am happy to play with whatever players ANet is pairing me in WvW. The important thing is: the server linkings in WvW must feel balanced for everyone. For many >months now, it feels out of balance particularly for those servers who apparently never get linked to anyone else regardless of their performance.

First: Don't expect everybody to be like you. There are a lot of people on national servers who can indeed not properly speak english and who have played this game in their native language since launch. There will always be confusion when someone calls something out.Also: They want to at least be able to play wvw in their native language if everything has already been taken away.(I played on NA servers, a German and a couple of international servers)Second: Coverage will always be a problem, even if this game just had 2 servers because wvw is being played by humans.

And I'm saying it for now at least 2 years: The solution to this is to balance the game.I was on a server 4 years ago which was constantly outnumbered (no joke, we were outnumbered 24/7), we always were up against zergs/blobs at least twice our size and we won. Was possible back then with a little skill and coordination, nowdays this game is just a spamfest.

ETA: But if that were possible again commander would have the problem to teach their people how to play again and that would lead to guilds transfering up and to the lower tiers dying out again - unless they learn to play. Personally I like it better like that and I liked that not every server was crowded.

I'm sorry, but if I'm on a map where basic communication -- a foundational part of WvW -- is challenging, then it's going to be a big kitten mess.

Bad idea OP. Sorry.

Thank you for your thoughts.WvW doesn't require more or better communication between players than sPvP, so why should language skills be more important here than in other game modes? It isn't!

@FogLeg.9354 said:but I think you are forgetting why German, French and Spanish servers are difficult to combine with international server. GW2 client is playable in DE, FR and SP besides EN. When normally, lets say Russian player plays the game, all the maps and interface is still in English. So until they understand enough English, they will react same way into call for "20 Blue at Bay South, 2 catas up, wall 70%". However, if you group together FR, DE and EN clients into single server, nobody understand anything about that.

@Jana.6831 said:There are a lot of people on national servers who can indeed not properly speak english and who have played this game in their native language since launch. There will always be confusion when someone calls something out.

That's not a problem. If another player pings locations into the chat, your client translates it automatically into your preferred language.

@northlion.7608 said:The ammount of players that don't speak english amongst those servers is higher than you might expect. Although the majority will know some english, a lot of people won't be able to express themselves. >@SugarCayne.3098 said:I'm sorry, but if I'm on a map where basic communication -- a foundational part of WvW -- is challenging, then it's going to be a big kitten mess.Bad idea OP. Sorry.

What's the difference to every other EU server, that doesn't have a language designation? Those servers aren't populated just by British, Irish or South Africans. Do you honestly think, every non-French, non-German or non-Spanish player on those 14 EU servers passes a TOEFL or IELTS (International English Language Testing System) with flying colours? Why does pairing work for all of them and not for the French, Germans or Spanish?

Or do you think the French, German or Spanish players just don't understand English as good as all those other players coming from places ranging from Russia to Portugal? That would be a ludicrous assumption.

Pairing players from different language background isn't an issue in sPvP and it shouldn't be one in WvW. Linking EU servers regardless of language designations would be fine and it would help the Glicko system come up with better and fairer results.

You just keep ignoring the point - it does not matter if DE, FR or SP player understands English or not. If their language is supported by the game developer and game client then they must have access to whole game without the need to learn, speak or understand any other languages. That is why we have international servers, with common language English, and servers with specific non-English language. You just fail to see difference between CAN and MUST.

Stop already, either you are unable to see the problem or you just want to push your own agenda for no reason at all. Either way, not going to happen.

@FogLeg.9354 said:You just keep ignoring the point - it does not matter if DE, FR or SP player understands English or not. If their language is supported by the game developer and game client then they must have access to whole game without the need to learn, speak or understand any other languages. That is why we have international servers, with common language English, and servers with specific non-English language. You just fail to see difference between CAN and MUST.

Stop already, either you are unable to see the problem or you just want to push your own agenda for no reason at all. Either way, not going to happen.

Your posting is rude and still ignores the point the game itself doesn't abide by that logic in the first place.

Your whole reasoning falls flat when you take a look at match making for sPvP. Players are paired together no matter where they come from, what language they speak or what client they use. A Russian, Hungarian, German and Irish could find themselves in the same group. Why should WvW be any different?

Before we repeat the cycle of insulting each other, just of of interest, which server are you on? And if you are NOT currently in non-english server, have you considered asking first those players who would be affected by your changes? Posting in DE forum or FR forum to ask them how they would feel about it? Because, in the end, you can guess what you like but it's still just guessing.

@FogLeg.9354 said:Before we repeat the cycle of insulting each other, just of of interest, which server are you on? And if you are NOT currently in non-english server, have you considered asking first those players who would be affected by your changes? Posting in DE forum or FR forum to ask them how they would feel about it? Because, in the end, you can guess what you like but it's still just guessing.

I've been to I think 6 servers, still ahve buddies from my first server 4 years ago, from my german server 3 years ago and so on. I know a lot of people. And only 2 I knew from the game who are also on the forums. The forums are worth kitten when it comes to what players want.

ETA: And just in case, what I mean is: You can even ask on the German forums and still don't get what the German speaking players want because 99% of them aren't on the forums - like most players.

@Lennox.7135 said:That's not a problem. If another player pings locations into the chat, your client translates it automatically into your preferred language.

I did so on my German server because I still played the game in English. Still had to figure out what they meant though. It's really unneccessary, especially since all servers should have the more or less same amount of players right now.If someone wants to play on an international server they are 'free' to transfer, like me. Just that you can't take everything from players away and still expect them to play. They bought this game and signed up on a German server only to be insulted on the Megaservers later on and you obviously want them to be insulted on the mixed language servers as well. Most of them will quit. And yes, the abuse hurled towards German speaking players is pretty mean and it happens nearly every time anyone dares to speak German in chat.

spvp has simple mechanics. wvw requires a lot of coordination and therefore communication.

the only question now is should servers have a limit on population?

why not have it unlimitted. people will qq about ques but they will eventually transfer to a server with less population. and then anet can balance the tiers by merging links to their hosts.

@Sovereign.1093 said:

why not have it unlimitted. people will qq about ques but they will eventually transfer to a server with less population. and then anet can balance the tiers by merging links to their hosts.

I do not know about situation in NA, but we are currently in T1 EU and we only have queues in reset night (every map) and weekend (some maps). During the week there are usually some queues at prime time, but some maps have none and in some we get outnumber buff. All this means the EU top server marked as FULL can still drain more players from less populated servers without the queue becoming huge problem. I am not even talking about off hours, the night, the daytime.

I am also fairly sure PoF so close to be released lots of players have returned to try it out. It is likely many will leave for various reasons soon again.

@FogLeg.9354 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

why not have it unlimitted. people will qq about ques but they will eventually transfer to a server with less population. and then anet can balance the tiers by merging links to their hosts.

i am an eu player too. =)if we get q there will always be eotm x pvp x other stuff to do.

Maybe add some new game mode. Kind of lame to play in tier 1 prime time and have outnumbered in EB and probably other maps too. I just wanna have 2-3 hours serious fighting where people defend, use siege and don't do pointless open field fights.

got to learn how to fight though. its one of the most fun in combo with siege defs

@Junkpile.7439 said:Maybe add some new game mode. Kind of lame to play in tier 1 prime time and have outnumbered in EB and probably other maps too. I just wanna have 2-3 hours serious fighting where people defend, use siege and don't do pointless open field fights.

Man... we SO need signatures back....

To be honest I like fighting Baruch Bay. They are the #1 in donating bags in great numbers. Even the thieves there don't know how to properly run from a power necro in roaming.

@gebrechen.5643 said:To be honest I like fighting Baruch Bay. They are the #1 in donating bags in great numbers. Even the thieves there don't know how to properly run from a power necro in roaming.

I did not like BB at all. They are not FUN. In our primetime they did not have players to fight at equal numbers so they sat in keeps. And when we went to sleep they took over all the maps so there was no point upgrading objectives. They should not be in T1. Or T2. But their nightcrew keeps them going up again.

I am not saying our current EU T1 opponents are more fun. Maybe it's because for any server to reach T1 they must first lose that feeling of "let's do something crazy and just fool around". Somehow the fun part of playing the game gets lost, and is replaced with stuff you have to do, with serious people who argue endlessly about completely irrelevant issues and many players who only count their pips.

I miss the relaxed feel of T3 already :)

Let us go back to the topic, please.Would the pairing of EU servers regardless of language designation allow the Glicko system to come up with better and more balanced results?You can approach this from a statistical angle. Link 27 servers into 5 tiers à 3 servers and you get how many combinations? If you compartmentalise them beforehand into 4 static sub-groups ranging from just 1 in the group up to 14, anything but a poor result would be sheer coincidence.

@FogLeg.9354 said:it does not matter if DE, FR or SP player understands English or not. If their language is supported by the game developer and game client then they must have access to whole game without the need to learn, speak or understand any other languages. That is why we have international servers, with common language English, and servers with specific non-English language. You just fail to see difference between CAN and MUST.

Maybe it's a cultural thing, maybe it's just ignorance. Having to interact with people who use another language than your own isn't an imposition or impertinence. Even if you play Guild Wars on a designated server you are not entitled to hear and see everything in your preferred language. On every EU server regardless of its designation you are subjected to chat comments in all sorts of languages. It's unavoidable, it's called megaserver. There is no harm in it! Why should it be any different in WvW?

@Sovereign.1093 said:spvp has simple mechanics. wvw requires a lot of coordination and therefore communication.

Quite a few sPvP players would disagree. Besides, many WvW players never bother to join the local teamspeak server. For them, WvW too doesn't require a lot of coordination and therefore communication.

@Jana.6831 said:They bought this game and signed up on a German server only to be insulted on the Megaservers later on and you obviously want them to be insulted on the mixed language servers as well. Most of them will quit. And yes, the abuse hurled towards German speaking players is pretty mean and it happens nearly every time anyone dares to speak German in chat.

Oh, come on. This line of reasoning is getting ridiculous. We have linked servers everywhere. What difference does it make if you get insulted in a foreign language or your own? Both is bad. On the bright side, if you don't understand the lingu, you don't get the abuse and aren't affected as much. Ignorance is bliss in that case.Anyway, people have to deal with this all over the game, why should WvW be any different?

Again, it boils down to the question: why do we still have segregation in WvW when in every other game mode EU players are used and fine with chat comments done in many different tongues? The Glicko system would improve if that segregation is dropped.

@Ulciscor.1703 said:So let us screw the three German servers who never get paired till kingdom come!^^

That sums up the problem quite nicely.

@Lennox.7135 said:Condensing 24 American servers and 27 European servers into 4-5 tiers à 3 servers using Glicko was probably a good thing. On each side of the pond 12 servers are paired with one or even two others to form one of the remaining 12 or 15 warring parties.

Maybe the Glicko system works as intended on the American side. On the European side however, its results are seriously impaired by a needless restriction. The reason is simple: European server linking is done categorically along language lines! This drastically limits the number of potential pairings and thus render the results subpar or even unfair. Your temporary manual adjustments, announced last on April 14th 2017, doesn't seem to alleviate the problem.

• 5 French servers are paired so they form 2 of the remaining 15 parties;• 7 German servers are paired so they form 5 of the remaining 15 parties;• the one Spanish server is cursed to always fend for itself;

This strict thinking along the lines of language "barriers" forces you to always pair the 14 "international" servers so they fill the remaining 7 slots in the roster. It's obvious this system cannot yield the best results.

Surely there were good intentions at heart when this system was set up. Maybe it was thought players of different language backgrounds shouldn't be forced to deal with one another. Maybe it was thought we don't get along with each other. Don't worry! Europeans are used to a lot of neighbours speaking in different tongues and we are fine with it. In fact, in every other Guild Wars section, whether in structured PvP or PvE we already play and cooperate alongside each other regardless of language. Furthermore, every one of the 14 "international" European servers which are paired together in WvW consists of players coming from countries ranging from Russia to Portugal speaking many different languages. If they can do it so can the French, Germans and Spanish.

Suggestion: please disregard language designations when pairing WvW servers!

It opens up new options and helps the system to reach its full potential.

I'd say pairing at all. Pairing needs to go.

The scores tell the story, but Anet isn't listening.

_A server that wins at all levels and is then paired with another that is " not a WvW server " and lands them both in last place is proof positive that the links are notworking and they are even harming WvW._

also a pairing for german servers with international ones whould seriously and drastically hamper their internal need for salt and drama. even worse when there would be no german servers at all.