Are the Evnoy's related somehow to the Underworld, Grenth and Dhuum ?

Are the Evnoy's related somehow to the Underworld, Grenth and Dhuum and will we see them in an upcoming living world episode or expansion?Please let me know your thoughts in the comments below

_EnvoyEnvoys are shepherds of the souls of the dead. When a mortal dies, an envoy will appear before the newly released soul to guide them into the Mists. All envoys were once wicked criminals in life, forced by the Oracle of the Mists to serve as soul shepherds as penance for their mortal crimes. Envoys appear to possess tremendous power, including the ability to control souls and influence the dead.There are five known envoys that were explicitly named (although one is no longer an envoy):Courier TorivosEmissary HeleyneHerald DemrikovMessenger VetauraShiro Tagachi

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Envoy_

Not really, no. As what you yourself quoted:

forced by the Oracle of the Mists to serve as soul shepherds as penance for their mortal crimes

Oracle of the Mists is a title given to a specific mortal individual in Cantha (IIRC, the most powerful ritualist). No relation to Grenth, etc. Though they do similar jobs as some of Grenth's faithful like The Judge.

The envoys (and ritualists in general to a lesser extent) are also why we see next to no wild spirits in Cantha.

Oracle of the Mists is a title given to a specific mortal individual in Cantha (IIRC, the most powerful ritualist). No relation to Grenth, etc. Though they do similar jobs as some of Grenth's faithful like The Judge.

The envoys (and ritualists in general to a lesser extent) are also why we see next to no wild spirits in Cantha.Source?

Upon his death, the Envoys—the immortal beings tasked by the Oracle of Mists with ferrying souls to the afterlife—called him to join their ranks, and he refused. For two centuries these Envoys, themselves once living beings of great wickedness who serve the Oracle as penance for their mortal crimes, have sought to bring Shiro into the fold.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

As for the "requirements" for being Oracle, I'm not too sure where I recall that from, but it would have been some obscure dialogue in Factions. The Oracle during Factions at the very least was very powerful, as he commanded the Celestials themselves to a degree, and it's unlikely he is 200 years old (or even a thousand, if Weh no Su is always tied to the Oracle of the Mists as implied during Factions) so it's likely the title is given to new individuals, and the bonds of Envoys and Celestials given to successors.

Given the bond of spirits, and the title itself TBH, being of ritualist profession is likely a requirement for anyone taking the title Oracle of the Mists.

The dialogue Suun has at the end of Factions implies that he even knew, to some degree, about Abaddon's plots. Which would certainly make him powerful even when ignoring the Envoys and Celestials.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 Your knowledge of GW is terrifying and I love it.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Given the bond of spirits, and the title itself TBH, being of ritualist profession is likely a requirement for anyone taking the title Oracle of the Mists.

Or by assuming the title they becomes a ritualist.

When Shiro killed a Dwayna blessed emperor he suddenly gained the power to draw souls away from the body. And when Shiro is made an envoy he gains the ability to bind souls using techniques very similar to ritualists. The latter being a Mist based tradition you believe merged with Preservation. If latter is correct, when I now believe it is, it's probable Envoy's are avatars of Dwayna that brings the reaped into the afterlife and binds ressurected souls within their original forms.

The Oracle would be the commander of other Envoys and has some degree of power to create and command them to some degree. No different than any other champion we've met.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Or by assuming the title they becomes a ritualist.

That's not how magic works.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:When Shiro killed a Dwayna blessed emperor he suddenly gained the power to draw souls away from the body.

No he didn't. He had been studying forbidden rituals for some time beforehand, and enchanted his blades with lifestealing capabilities. Per An Empire Divided.

What is known for certain is that Shiro was slain while performing a dark ritual that would have granted him great power.

But somewhere along the way, dark forces corrupted Shiro Tagachi, forces that he sought out against the laws of his empire and his gods. He learned the ways of forbidden sorcery and engaged in studies and rituals well beyond the disciplines of the Assassin. He found that these taboo powers were second nature to him, and the darkest forms of magic were the easiest of all.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

And when Shiro is made an envoy he gains the ability to bind souls using techniques very similar to ritualists.

Powers granted to him for his task of being an Envoy. Powers likely granted by the Oracle.

The latter being a Mist based tradition you believe merged with Preservation. If latter is correct, when I now believe it is, it's probable Envoy's are avatars of Dwayna that brings the reaped into the afterlife and binds ressurected souls within their original forms.

The two hold zero relation. And your "deduction" is directly and explicitly contradicted by the very source of lore that tells us that Angsiyan's ritual was gifted by Dwayna (though nothing explicitly labels it as Preservation nor links Dwayna to Preservation school of magic).

The Oracle would be the commander of other Envoys and has some degree of power to create and command them to some degree. No different than any other champion we've met.

Except that the Oracle is a title given to a mortal figure.

You literally take A and jump to Sigma.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Or by assuming the title they becomes a ritualist.

So all Reapers of Grenth, including Desmina, were talented beforehand. And the Oracle and Razakel just gave Shiro knowledge but not the power to do anything.

The two hold zero relation. And your "deduction" is directly and explicitly contradicted by the very source of lore that tells us that Angsiyan's ritual was gifted by Dwayna"Using enchanted weapons", and "along with the powerful magic granted to the emperor by Dwayna" are not mutually exclusive.

(though nothing explicitly labels it as Preservation nor links Dwayna to Preservation school of magic).

You can't retcon resurrections stopping 250 years ago as Guardians not having enough faith in their allies. One or more Gods was responsible for intercession in a large number of Preservation techniques and stopped when they left their realms. All signs point to it being Dwawyna and/or Grenth.

The Oracle would be the commander of other Envoys and has some degree of power to create and command them to some degree. No different than any other champion we've met.

So is Reaper. What matters is what happens after the "title" is bestowed.

Mortals don't have a desire/capacity to create soul shepherds nor did they know about Abaddon. IIRC Suun doesn't die during Factions. He just looks old, just like Khilbron did before he didn't.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Or by assuming the title they becomes a ritualist.

They didn't get magic due to "assuming a title". They were given a title because they had or obtained power.

The Oracle(s) did indeed give Shiro power, given that Envoys are explicitly stated to have been bound by the Oracles. Shiro's power as an Envoy - as well as the other Envoys - were granted such because of the Oracle.

And Razakel had nothing to do with Shiro.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:"Using enchanted weapons", and "along with the powerful magic granted to the emperor by Dwayna" are not mutually exclusive.

In this case, they are. You're saying that Shiro learned how to do non-Assassin things by stealing magic, but that's not the case. He learned the forbidden arts, magic, and rituals (which includes how to steal magic) long before stealing magic.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You can't retcon resurrections stopping 250 years ago as Guardians not having enough faith in their allies. One or more Gods was responsible for intercession in a large number of Preservation techniques and stopped when they left their realms. All signs point to it being Dwawyna and/or Grenth.

Resurrection has absolutely nothing to do with the Jade Wind or the magic that Shiro stole.

Nor does it have any relation to any trait known for Preservation magic.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:So is Reaper. What matters is what happens after the "title" is bestowed.

Mortals don't have a desire/capacity to create soul shepherds nor did they know about Abaddon. IIRC Suun doesn't die during Factions. He just looks old, just like Khilbron did before he didn't.

Firstly, "Reaper" is not a title given to mortals. It is a title given to seven specific dead individuals. And only seven - the seven once-mortal heroes who aided Grenth.

And a title gives nothing. It's just words. You do not suddenly become a god by declaring yourself one, despite Gaheron's belief. You do not suddenly become an avatar of a god by declaring to be one. You do not suddenly become the Eighth Reaper just because someone decides to call you a reaper.

The Seven Reapers became such after being gifted power.

And the entire ritualist profession proves you wrong about mortals not having the desire or capacity to shepard souls, let alone create such.

And we don't know what was or wasn't known about Abaddon's machinations or what Suun had known. Suun was clearly more in the know than most mortals, and there were some mortals who knew about Abaddon (most of these mortals, mind you, knew about him due to finding ancient scriptures of Abaddon). But keep in mind that by the time of Factions, we already saw and stopped two attempts by Abaddon (Prophecies and Tomb of the Primeval Kings). Suun may not have known who was behind the actions, but he could undoubtably recognize something was going on. Suun might have suspected that the one(s) behind these machinations were Dhuum or Menzies, as we had also stopped a plot of theirs in the Underworld and Fissure of Woe, respectively (and their forces did show up in Tomb of the Primeval Kings).

But when an individual converses with powerful spirits, some of these souls being of individuals, like Chong the Celestial Pig, who predate Abaddon's fall, it would not be unheard of to believe that Suun knew a forgotten god was returning.

And I have no idea what Suun dying has to do with anything.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Or by assuming the title they becomes a ritualist.

That is more grammar than lore. For instance, one can become a citizen by being born, or one can be born by becoming a citizen.

The Oracle(s) did indeed give Shiro power, given that Envoys are explicitly stated to have been bound by the Oracles. Shiro's power as an Envoy - as well as the other Envoys - were granted such because of the Oracle.

And? Are Awakeened not minions of Joko because some are bound by his lieutenants?

And Razakel had nothing to do with Shiro.

Then mysterious fortune teller who influenced him into learning things way beyond his discipline.

In this case, they are. You're saying that Shiro learned how to do non-Assassin things by stealing magic...

Yes. In addition to what he already learned from forbidden texts. Again, not mutually exclusive.

Resurrection has absolutely nothing to do with the Jade Wind or the magic that Shiro stole.

Ressurection has everything to do with a system of souls being escorted between Tyria and the Underworld.

Nor does it have any relation to any trait known for Preservation magic.

I have no idea what "any trait" means. But if you are trying to imply resurrection is not related to Preservation magic that is unequivocally false. Unless for some reason you wish to place monks and ritualists in some other school.

As for Dwayna's involvement. She created the Kazin Monastery. Her avatar blesses Monks, and her son's blesses Ritualists. The echoes of her followers revive people. And everyone in the story who has asked for a resurrection has called out to her.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:So is Reaper. What matters is what happens after the "title" is bestowed.

Mortals don't have a desire/capacity to create soul shepherds nor did they know about Abaddon. IIRC Suun doesn't die during Factions. He just looks old, just like Khilbron did before he didn't.

Then what is Desmina? And why was she able to command the Reapers to die in her stead.

And the entire ritualist profession proves you wrong about mortals not having the desire or capacity to shepard souls, let alone create such.

Then you misunderstand what the word shepherd entails.

And I have no idea what Suun dying has to do with anything.

Because you insisted he was a mortal without providing proof. Character model means very little when you are talking about divine servants.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:That is more grammar than lore. For instance, one can become a citizen by being born, or one can be born by becoming a citizen.

You cannot become born by becoming a citizen. That makes literally no sense. Besides, the title of citizenship holds no proper comparison to being magically powerful.

A better comparison would be being called a bodybuilder and having muscle - you don't suddenly gain a ton of muscle just because folks start saying you work out. You have to actually work out.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

The Oracle(s) did indeed give Shiro power, given that Envoys are

explicitly stated

to have been bound by the Oracles. Shiro's power as an Envoy - as well as the other Envoys - were granted such because of the Oracle.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that the Oracle of the Mists is Grenth's lieutenant therefore the Envoys follow Grenth? That's the only line of thought I can fathom to make your statement any amount of relation to the topic.

In which case, there's nothing to link the Oracle of the Mists to Grenth. And even then, that doesn't hold any water about where Shiro got his power to influence spirits like the other Envoys' powers.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Then mysterious fortune teller who influenced him into learning things way beyond his discipline.

The fortune teller didn't really influence him into that, just into betraying the emperor. Shiro went to the rituals on his own in his paranoia.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Yes. In addition to what he already learned from forbidden texts. Again, not mutually exclusive.

Except that he didn't. No, it's not mutually exclusive, but it didn't happen. He didn't learn anything by stealing magic - he just had more power to do things.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Ressurection has everything to do with a system of souls being escorted between Tyria and the Underworld.

But nothing to do with the gift of magic granted to the Canthan emperor(s) by Dwayna. Thus nothing to do with Shiro's powers as a mortal.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I have no idea what "any trait" means. But if you are trying to imply resurrection is not related to Preservation magic that is unequivocally false. Unless for some reason you wish to place monks and ritualists in some other school.

As for Dwayna's involvement. She created the Kazin Monastery. Her avatar blesses Monks, and her son's blesses Ritualists. The echoes of her followers revive people. And everyone in the story who has asked for a resurrection has called out to her.

traitnouna distinguishing quality or characteristic, typically one belonging to a person or thing.

As to monks and ritualists - we actually have no confirmation as to what school any profession is attached to sans Elementalist. We have theories, strong ones, but no more than that.

And I think the fact that Balthazar also blesses monks - and paragons - and that grenth blesses assassins - is proof enough, were GW2's added lore not so, that the gods' magic is distinctly different from the bloodstones' magic and thus the magic that mortals wield.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Then what is Desmina? And why was she able to command the Reapers to die in her stead.

She's Grenth's first follower. A priestess. And by all appearances, a long-living mortal like Magi Malaquire and Livia.

She also did not command the Reapers into dying. She tricked them by sabotaging the ritual (by all appearances that is).

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

And the entire ritualist profession proves you wrong about mortals not having the desire or capacity to shepard souls, let alone create such.

shepardnoun2.a person who protects, guides, or watches over a person or group of people.

That is exactly what ritualists do for souls. They protect, guide, and watch over them. That's literally their description.

It's also what necromancers do (or did in GW1) in Tyria and Elona.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Because you insisted he was a mortal without providing proof. Character model means very little when you are talking about divine servants.

Every dead figure in the existence of the game has, at some point, been transparent. Or with a flaming pumpkin head. It's not rocket science to see that a dude who's solid is not dead.

Especially when every single dialogue about him talks about him as if he's a mortal, flesh and blood, living being and not a soul ensconced in a location.

Even most divine servants have shown to be transparent. And there is literally nothing in the entirety of the game's lore that hints that Suun is a divine servant. You're literally pulling that out of thin air.