A mild plead on the Engineer in coördinated WvW

Engineers, aside with rangers and elementalists, haven't been a popular choice for coördinated World versus World scenarios. Mainly Warriors, Guardians and Necromancers have been domination the serverwide battles for quite some time now, with good reason.Guardians have always offers amazing support to allied fighters on the battlegrounds. This has been pushed to a new level with the Firebrand, even though it was designed as a condi spec.Warriors are the kings of diving in and dealing damage. This is mainly due to their natural tankyness that is offered through (semi-)passive effects, most notably stances and traits. This combined with the fact that they can offer good utility in the battle such as the battlestandard have resulted in amazing fighters.Necromancers have been the bomb since the start. No literally, a bomb. Their AoE capabilities are off the charts. High spikes of area damage is traditionally achieved through the usage of wells while skills like epidemic spread conditions like crazy, giving them their honourable spot in the top 3 classes for WvW.

Now for Engineer. The class that has never really peaked in group WvW. The class that is well known for its complexity next to Elementalist, but with all effort cannot manage to get a WvW suitable build. I wondered where these problems lie.

ScrapperThe Scrapper, as it's currently designed, is an amazing bruiser. But that's where it all stops. On paper the Scrapper should be extremely strong as a frontliner on the battlefield. It offers reflects, leaps with evades, blocks while doing damage and AoE stuns. All that is paired with good sustain through passive regeneration and barriers. This almost sounds like a warrior. But one important thing is missing, AoE and support. Where the warrior has much more access to AoE and some support, the Scrapper is completely focussed on itself with only few skills really giving valuable support on WvW. And the result of that, is that its overshadowed.

HolosmithI have to say, I got my hopes up high when I learned about Holosmith. He is much more damage oriented but still has great sustain to survive some chokes of the battle. Could this be the spec I've been hoping for? The spec where I could run into enemies alongside a warrior? No. Allthough its burst damage is great, mainly with Corona Burst, a leap and a huge critical knockdown, it still doesn't offer anything special in WvW. These's plenty of others that can dish out crazy ammounts of damage on the enemy. So what does Holosmith bring to the table? The best that I could probably come up with is AoE ticking protection (Hard Light Arena), that needs 2 grandmaster traits to be really good. And then in the end, you are stuck with one good AoE ability that should make you top tier. No, compared to the massive boon strip of Warriors in addition to recent warhorn buffs and more, they will never get on the same level.

Senpai please (AKA conclusion)I am pleading to consider the Engineer's capabilities in WvW as a more important note in balancing. I, and I hope many others, are sick of being left out in the top and being overshadowed. There's been many times I've got my hopes up, but have never come to a realisation. So I'm asking, please try to look in to what Engineer needs to be better in group scenario's in WvW, no matter how.

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@"Acyk.9671" said:Support scrapper is already meta in WvW as a 2nd support ( builds.vabbi.eu/ ) and recent changes to elixirs went in the good way.Uhm no. Engineer might be on that site, but it is far from meta. When you get in coordinated groups, engineer support is just not much when compared to firebrand, even when it has been nerfed. But yes, elixirs went the right way

I replied to a post on this forum about trait change to make him better (i'll c/c here)

"I like the recent changes but Scrapper would benefit from more coherence in elixir's trait and skills.

HGH: Give swiftness / Reduce Might durationUhm huge nerf right here. Swiftness is everywhere on every class, this doesn't help engineer at all.Elixir B: Remove Retaliation and Swiftness/ Add QuicknessToss Elixir B: Remove Stability, Retaliation, Swiftness / Add Quickness and increase CD to 40 secElixir U: Remove Quickness/ Add Retaliation (and Swiftness?)Toss Elixir U: Remove Quickness/ Add Stability, Retaliation (and Swiftness?) and Decrease CDI see zero reason why swapping around parts of 2 skills might help engineer even remotely. Literally, this would be a useless change.Mass Momentum: Increase Might and its DurationWould be nice, but stil doesn't help Engi in WvW groups

It would open up possibilities for different builds like offensive duelist/ tank / healing and stability support/ condition removal and healing support.It would also give scrapper an opportunity to be a real alternative to Firebrand (whom has been nerfed enough) as 1st support option.The goal is to have more diversity in builds for PvP/WvW with different support specs available. In WvW zergs Scrapper could work well with Tempest as 2nd support while Fireband works better with chronomancer."

Elixirs are by nature pretty selfish. Allthough they have a toss skills, the tossing is way to cluncky to reliably use in a large group. And the toss skills are also just meh when compared to guardian shouts for example.Changing (this isnt really buffing) exlirs doesn't make engi better in WvW, but rather at small scale roaming maybe. If you really want to change engineer for WvW groups, he would need some skills that work better in an AoE sense.

@"Acyk.9671" said:Support scrapper is already meta in WvW as a 2nd support ( builds.vabbi.eu/ ) and recent changes to elixirs went in the good way.I replied to a post on this forum about trait change to make him better (i'll c/c here)

"I like the recent changes but Scrapper would benefit from more coherence in elixir's trait and skills.

HGH: Give swiftness / Reduce Might durationElixir B: Remove Retaliation and Swiftness/ Add QuicknessToss Elixir B: Remove Stability, Retaliation, Swiftness / Add Quickness and increase CD to 40 secElixir U: Remove Quickness/ Add Retaliation (and Swiftness?)Toss Elixir U: Remove Quickness/ Add Stability, Retaliation (and Swiftness?) and Decrease CDMass Momentum: Increase Might and its Duration

It would open up possibilities for different builds like offensive duelist/ tank / healing and stability support/ condition removal and healing support.It would also give scrapper an opportunity to be a real alternative to Firebrand (whom has been nerfed enough) as 1st support option.The goal is to have more diversity in builds for PvP/WvW with different support specs available. In WvW zergs Scrapper could work well with Tempest as 2nd support while Fireband works better with chronomancer."

Your suggestions in the long run amount to switching the names of Elixir U and Elixir B. Buffing Mass Momentum might generating and concentrating Stab in Elixir U, it's not going result in a buff because you already get 25 might very easily as it is with current options.

Then you claim Scrapper is an alternative main support to Firebrand when all you did was a few ineffective changes to Bruiser Scrapper... Da fuq?

Here are a snip of my Scrapper suggestions I think would be a good start in WvW. Many other changes I've suggested but these are most relevant.

Gyros are being re-branded as a 10Target affecting WvW niche. Medic Gyro's healing, Reconstruction Field, Bulwark's Watchful Eye, Defense Field's Stability, Purge Gyro's Chemical Field, Blast Gyro's Explosion, Bypass Coating's Superspeed, Shredder Gyro's attacks, Spare Capacitor's hits, these all will affect either 10 allies or enemies

Utility skills1.) Medic Gyro: Reconstruction Field instant to return to consistency with Defense Field.

2.) Medic Gyro: Heals in a 600 radius, and affects 10 Targets to be consistent with Bulwark's Watchful Eye buff.

Huge changes for WvW that wont affect PvP at all, buff the targets from 5 to 10 on things combined with medic gyro radius buff

Traits1.) Shocking Speed - Currently: Leap & Blast finishers in lightning fields applies 5 seconds of superspeed around you. New: All leap and blast finishers apply 2 seconds of Superspeed around you, internal cooldown removed.

Scrapper able to apply superspeed to allies even easier..

2.) Expert Examination - Trait removed and replaced. New: High Performance Alloy - Activated Gyros take no damage for 3 seconds and grant protection to nearby allies. 3s Protection, 240 radius.

Bulwark affecting 10 people, bulwark being unkillable for 3 seconds even while taking 60,000 DPS in a choke..

4.) Final Salvo: Currently: Spawn a lightning field when a gyro is destroyed, granting Superspeed.New: Lightning field now mobile and centered around the Scrapper's position rather than where the Gyro dies.

Scrapper being able to keep a group mobile with moving super speed fields on their position..

Instead of replacing Firebrand as main support maybe just let Scrapper be Scrapper except with more group presence through Gyro support!

^ Now you get it, thank you! I love the suggestions you make, as it makes a Scrapper unique and not taking over the role of Firebrand. I would love to see these changes!

Scrapper feels really good in wvw right now. I can usually survive meteor bombs when capping keeps and heal through. Bulwark gyro’s protection is quite strong and the stab on tool belt is awesome.

@The V.8759 said:Engineers, aside with rangers and elementalists, haven't been a popular choice for coördinated World versus World scenarios. Mainly Warriors, Guardians and Necromancers have been domination the serverwide battles for quite some time now, with good reason.

You don't know the meta. Weaver has been very much "meta" for a pretty long time in large zergs. Scrappers have been great for a few months too.Obviously you don't need as many of these classes as you need guards and necros, but I often run with as much weavers as warriors at least on very large (50v50+) scale.

@The V.8759 said:

@"Acyk.9671" said:Support scrapper is already meta in WvW as a 2nd support (

builds.vabbi.eu/

) and recent changes to elixirs went in the good way.Uhm no. Engineer might be on that site, but it is far from meta. When you get in coordinated groups, engineer support is just not much when compared to firebrand, even when it has been nerfed. But yes, elixirs went the right way

Engi had more cleanse than FB, more healing per second than FB and certain unique support. Obviously you can't replace fb; nor do you want one in every group. But having a few engies supporting and overbuffing has helped tremendously. Coming from one of the most coordinated EU servers.

I also think engi is probably better at babysitting range players than FB at the moment; due to more on-demand burst heals, cleanse, ranged hard CC and a few others.

As far as holosmith goes : It has several aspects which are pretty decent for blobs. Much better than core engi and pre-rework scrapper, in fact. It just struggled with a condi-heavy pirateship meta as a nearly pure melee class. However; as condi spikes have mostly been nerfed and most range damage has also been nerfed; once meteo bug is fixed I think there's a good chance holo gets a bigger piece of the pie.I'm not saying we'll be running 10+ holos, but I have some holo builds / concepts I want tested once the meteo bug is gone. I'm talking about 5-10% holo's in larger zergs, as part of melee.

TL DR : We're currently running 2-3 scrappers in most 50 man zergs which are a great addition. You can call them non-meta but there is a reason this is the first and only scrapper build we've added. It can overheal and cleanse substantial amounts, as well as provide good utility.Once meteo bug is fixed, let the meta stabilize. I wouldn't be suprised if we slowly get towards more melee-allowing metas. I'm not saying we need a melee meta such as HoT - but the moment melee can push deep enough that holosmith can properly use it's holo form for cleave I think it'll be in a much better spot for coordinated WvW.

Holosmith & scrapper have unique utility which no other class can provide : High superspeed uptime.

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@The V.8759 said:

@"Acyk.9671" said:Support scrapper is already meta in WvW as a 2nd support (

builds.vabbi.eu/

) and recent changes to elixirs went in the good way.Uhm no. Engineer might be on that site, but it is far from meta. When you get in coordinated groups, engineer support is just not much when compared to firebrand, even when it has been nerfed. But yes, elixirs went the right way

1. Final Salvo: This is probably the 'best' out of all three. However, in order to properly synchronize this when you need superspeed, you need to explode a valuable gyro that could give you damage reduction, cleansing or whatever one you use.
2. Shocking Speed: Locked behind a 10s cooldown.
3. Bypass Coating: Blast gyro is not good in WvW, but lets imagine you do use it, it could have potential.

Holosmith & scrapper have unique utility which no other class can provide : High superspeed uptime.

This confused me, how does Holosmith provide High superspeed uptime?

@Tehologist.5841 said:

Holosmith & scrapper have unique utility which no other class can provide : High superspeed uptime.

Final Salvo creates a superspeed field where gyros are destroyed. So if you have a gyro out that is killed in a push, it leaves behind a superspeed field that pulses for 3s. This helps people who are caught in the bomb that killed the gyro to get out of the bomb and catch back up to the group

That is scrapper, not holosmith. I know how scrapper generates super speed.

@Tehologist.5841 said:

Holosmith & scrapper have unique utility which no other class can provide : High superspeed uptime.

You use Holo Leap skill with Crystal Configuration: Zephyr trait for 3 seconds of superspeed.

@kelsier.9124 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:

Holosmith & scrapper have unique utility which no other class can provide : High superspeed uptime.

Only on allies you touch during the leap, making it very inefficiënt for buffing your group

@The V.8759 said:

@kelsier.9124 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:

Holosmith & scrapper have unique utility which no other class can provide : High superspeed uptime.

Not during the Leap, rather those allies who touch the pad you leave behind after leaping.

And afaik more than 5 people (either like mesmers veil, or like x people in a period of time - comparable to blasting fields).

Essentially a very very good tool (!!)

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@The V.8759 said:

@kelsier.9124 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:

Holosmith & scrapper have unique utility which no other class can provide : High superspeed uptime.

My bad, its the pad indeed. But the pad is extremely small and hard to see. I dont see you you're gonna coordinate people to run over that thing. Aside from that, thats a very very small niche.

I forgot about the launch pad. Very cool.

@The V.8759 said:

@The V.8759 said:

@"Acyk.9671" said:Support scrapper is already meta in WvW as a 2nd support (

builds.vabbi.eu/

) and recent changes to elixirs went in the good way.Uhm no. Engineer might be on that site, but it is far from meta. When you get in coordinated groups, engineer support is just not much when compared to firebrand, even when it has been nerfed. But yes, elixirs went the right way

Yes, and then the FB has burned their main healing cooldowns completely. Goodluck healing up someone for 15k hp without burning your F2 for it. Meanwhile engi has drastically lower CDs so they can continuously provide this type of healing. Engineer? He has to stay close with you, also known as babysitting, in order to react by healing. And even then, his healing might be about as strong as the firebrand, but with much less boons involved. And more cleanse, more constant healing, more superspeed and different boonspread. Which is exactly why we use it - for moments where it's good.

Then you notice condition cleanse. As far as Engineer goes, your condi cleanses are Fumigate, Toss Elixir C and Cleansing Field (Med Kit). Fumigate is a weird shaped cone that in the movement of battle can be quite hard to hit everyone you want. Cleansing field only transmutes one boon per tick as a stationary field. In any proper fight, people should only be able to receive one or two ticks from this. Toss Elixir C is actually pretty good if you are babysitting, but impossible to use on longer ranger (+300 range) on moving targets. On the other side is the Firebrand, with its Mantra of Lore. First of all, this is PBAOE, making it much easier to affect allies in a fray. Aside from that, it is important to note that it is instantly. This means you can continue healing at the same time(!). Then we have the Cleansing Recovery that also heal allies for all boons removed, doing two important things at the same time again.

You can measure outgoing cleanse with arc. Outgoing cleanse and healing per second did not lag behind FB; in fact our better players performed better in both healing and cleanse than on FB. I admit it's not easy, it has worse boonspread, worse overall boons and firebrand is more meta and most likely more OP. That said you're vastly exaggerating. FB can't cleanse their own party without F2 because mantras are bugged and don't prioritize ! FB has 0 range support except if they MI on you! FB main heal and cleanse overlap! FB cleanses more than it converts to boons!

You are right that Scrapper has more 'ranged CC'; Supply crate (120s CD) and Thunderclap (24S CD). On the other side, FB can kite squishies away much better with Shield of Absorption (24S CD) that also rejects projectiles and can heal. It is also much stronger at stripping stability or stopping the enemy with line of warding (30s CD).In the end, the point is that choosing a Firebrand over a support engineer is always more effective. I'm not saying that support engi is weak, but definetly not on par with FB.

Agreed; yet scrapper and chrono are the only extra supports we run and scrapper is definitely in a good spot. It lacks the stab and boon uptime to replace FB, unless it gets those it certainly won't be able to take its spot in the meta. That said, it does so many things better than FB that we prefer scrapper over a second FB in party, and on par with chronomancer. And frankly as far as WvW balance goes, that's a pretty good position to be in.

Holosmith & scrapper have unique utility which no other class can provide : High superspeed uptime.Yes, its their only niche. But I have two things to say about this:First of all, its a small thing they are good at. It is often regarded as less important.But second, more importantly the group access to superspeed isn't great at all. There are three sources:

1. Final Salvo: This is probably the 'best' out of all three. However, in order to properly synchronize this when you need superspeed, you need to explode a valuable gyro that could give you damage reduction, cleansing or whatever one you use.
2. Shocking Speed: Locked behind a 10s cooldown.
3. Bypass Coating: Blast gyro is not good in WvW, but lets imagine you do use it, it could have potential.

plain false, see below.

@The V.8759 said:

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@The V.8759 said:

@kelsier.9124 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:

Holosmith & scrapper have unique utility which no other class can provide : High superspeed uptime.

The trait currently has no target cap, which makes it easy to coordinate rather than hard. If you want to use superspeed in zergs, the main issue is that it draws out your zerg. The players who don't get superspeed due to lack of coordination will be stuck and die; and it's very difficult to coordinate superspeed for everyone per party. But holo has no target cap. You regroup, empower and push a different direction? 1 holo leap on you will give everyone superspeed for 3s. A veil? one holo leap and everyone who takes it gets superspeed.

Now it's not meta or that useful because well... so far we haven't had a single PoF meta where you could push. And frankly; no buffs to holosmith will change that. But given a melee-oriented meta, I wouldn't be suprised if holosmith finds a place without too much difficulty for utility and / or melee cleave.

I agree FB is more suited for solo support than scrapper, and stronger overall. But scrapper / holo both definitely have their niche; and you're downplaying the advantages they have for your side of the story. Truthfully, scrapper is in a much better spot for groups it has ever been and holo is mostly held back by the current meta; which won't change by heavily buffing holo. It'll only make holo absolutely bonkers for small scale.

I do think some purity of purpose quality of life changes would be nice for engi. Things like... projectile speed increase on throwing elixers so you can land them from more than 300 range would be great.

Scrapper is really really tough and provides support. Holosmith can help on the front lines, but aside from hard light arena, support is indirect.

if superspeed could be stacked, engi would be in a better spot.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:if superspeed could be stacked, engi would be in a better spot.

If superspeed could be stacked, we'd need engi nerfs or melee would be running around with pre-stacked superspeed that can't be corrupted, even with less than 5 engies in a zerg.

Maybe if they limit the amount of stacks (as they do with buffs) to 3. Imo 5 and 10 is both too high.

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:if superspeed could be stacked, engi would be in a better spot.

Staking in duration up to 3 seconds? I'dd say 5 then. 3 seconds max wouldnt change anything.Atm it just works stupid. Imagine you have 5s of superspeed and you get 2s, the new superspeed overrides the old one. Thus having only 2s suddenly

@The V.8759 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:if superspeed could be stacked, engi would be in a better spot.

No; I'm saying there MUST be a stacking limit linked to "amount of stacks of superspeed" one can have similar to boons right now.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effect_stacking

So I said 3 stacks, meaning you could have for example 4s (active) + 3s + 3s for a total of 10s. Then if someone adds 5s, you'd lose the shortest stack, and have 4s + 5s + 3s for 12s duration. But you can't stack 3s* 60 to get 3 full minutes. Without appropriate duration stacking; few engies would already be capable of providing very long stacks of superspeed.

@Etheri.5406 said:

@The V.8759 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:if superspeed could be stacked, engi would be in a better spot.

Ah that clears it up, misunderstood you :)