[This is how it feels to play mesmer. ( adult content )]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

I could say alot of things here but ill just end it with a basic statement to sum this up.

People also think they shouldn't be punished for using auto attacks by confusion but i mean you just said feelings are meaningless so i guess there is no reason to care why you are punished for retaliation when using multi hit skills, just dont attack or use boon rip and you wont die. If you continue to attack just die.

I cant understand how you can say the things you are saying but deny the ideals when the same logic of thinking is turned against you. Im done with the retaliation vs confusion topic as a whole because its just gonna go back and forth.

People who have retalation usually have a lot of other boons and it makes it hard to rip retaliation. On most classes, you don't have that much boon ripping and you can't do a lot against retalation.

[Condi Mirage post nerf]

@desu.2514 said:I’m suggesting clones don’t exist as actual damaging entity’s and are replaced as a visual representation. Anything that would now make a clone now gives Mesmer a clone charge as a resource max 3. Using shatter skill depleted clone charges with same affect as now and spawns x clones from the Mesmer with distortion and super speed targeted at your current target. The hard part of balance is that clones apply condi, so do you balance the condi for having 3 clones alive that makes condi underpowered in some situation or balance condi for no clone that makes it OP in other situations. This fixes that issue and makes it easy to balance in comparison.

So I guess I misunderstood you. However I still do not wish to see this change implemented. I think killing the mesmer clones to lower his damage is an interesting mechanic. I guess it wouldn't hurt to reduce the aoe damage taken from the clones, as it can be a bit of a problem especially when facing a greatsword warrior (gs 3 killing all of my clones each time i'm not on mirage can feel a bit unfair). Also as you said it will be very tricky to balance condi mesmer around this (though i guess it should be feasible)

Also this fixes the problem of Mesmer shatters being useless around aoe or cleave, same for distortion on phantasm. Name a skill from another class that can be destroyed. Imagine meter shower being cancelled because a necro dropped a well on the same cast point ect or warrior skills being stopped by a auto attack.More so imagine warriors loosing adrenaline for taking damage and necros loosing shroud hp for moving. This is the equivalent of clones being destroyable. The resource for your class mechanic being able to be taken away. Replace infinite horizon to fit the new mechanic, there are endless options for equally interesting trait replacements

Actually mesmer isn't the only class that can have its ressource destroyed. There is also ranger and necromancer (except for scourge).

[Condi Mirage post nerf]

@phokus.8934 said:Why do people keep saying Mirage clone generation is a problem?

If you take the standard pvp meta build then you have the same clone generation as core and chrono. The only outlier is nomads endurance but that 1.5s of vigor per shatter is not a game changer.

It has the same clone generation but clones live longer on mirage as they can dodge (and also get tped thanks to axe 3 or illusionary ambush). Unlike on core mesmer and chrono, you can keep those clones alive which changes everything.

I’m fine with them reducing the phantasm and clone generation from staff and scepter but I’m not fine with the 50% damage nerf to staff. I suppose I’ll be fine with it if they really turn it into a utility weapon - starting with staff 4 chaos armor getting a rework.

I agree that staff 4 could benefit from a change, and I think that the 50% condi duration nerf of chaos vortex is a bit overkill and should have only been applied to clones (making the staff in line with other weapons), but a 50% condi duration nerf of one of the staff skills isn't a 50% damage nerf to staff. Even if it was a 50% condi duration nerf to all of staff skills, it wouldn't be a 50% damage nerf as long as condi cleanses exist.

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

StG is kitten, it barely gets you out of melee range, the evade uptime is short and the fact that it spawns a mirror on the place where you activate the skill makes it useless (I know Curunen likes the skill).IA would be fine if the CD wasn't overkill and it didn't port you to the most dangerous places half the time, why the heck would I waste a slot on it if I could just use SoM who is vastly superior.

I think I already explained enough why both of those skills are decent. SoM might be more reliable than IA, but there are less ways to use it, and IA doesn't get hard countered by reveal like SoM does.

It's not stronger on mirage, on ranger with just one trait you've perma-vigor and like you said rangers use dodge defensively meaning each time they dodge they make use of protection. On mirage on the other hand if you dodge for ambush you're wasting protection.

As I said, ranger take damage for way longer than mirages in an actual fight. It makes each second of protection less impactful on ranger than it is on mirage.

It's like I said, if you use shatters offensively you will decrease the amount of times you get 3 mirrors a lot. Distortion is a "oh kitten" button, you don't use it for mirrors.

If you only use distorsion defensively that's a mistake on your part. The mirrors aren't the strongest part of distorsion (and they shouldn't ever be considering how strong distorsion is) so you won't use it just for the mirrors, but almost single time I use distorsion I have 3 clones up. It allows you to have a huge window where you can do what you want and your ennemy cannot do anything about it (as other invuln in this game usually block your access to your other skills, or do not prevent you from being cced).

Plus, again, mirrors are garbage who are only on game because the balance devs though the mirror design was cool. By running to mirrors you become predictable.

Warrior getting immuned to damage at 50% hp is extremely predictible, it doesn't mean it's weak. Predictible doesn't mean it's garbage, and a 3/4seconds dodge that you can have 3 times thanks to a single trait (plus up to 8.5s of access to ambush skills) isn't garbage because it's predictable. If it is then most mechanics in this game are garbage then.

Weakness and damage are 180 radius and again the most predictable mechanic on game.

I'm not arguing that the weakness and the damage are good, but it's just something more than the mirrors have going for themselves.

[Condi Mirage post nerf]

@desu.2514 said:I think everyone misses the point and real issue. Mirage ruined Mesmer.

Mirage did not ruin mesmer. Core mesmer, while not very strong, is still viable and what ruined chrono is the loss of IP and distorsion, not the mirage. Power chrono was actually extremely strong before its rework.

The real issue you have with these nerfs? There not direct nerds to mirage. Instead there nerfs to Mesmer that actually affect core and chrono more than the intended mirage...... think how poor chrono clone generation will be now and how they can hardly shatter already.

The Chaos Vortex nerf is a nerf to mirage in itself, not chrono or core mesmer. And one of the most egregious things about mirage (condi mirage specifically) is the insane clone generation. The nerfs are fine, anet just need to buff chrono aswell and add something only the core mesmer has access to (maybe an f5 shatter that would make everything the mesmer do ignore the ennemies' boons for 1 to 4s based on the number of clones shattered).

You want the real answer to get balance across Mesmer clones need to be changed dramatically. They should be treated as non destroyable resource or only able to be damaged if directly targeted and balanced accordingly to that.

This is a terrible idea. Power mesmer is already quite weak compared to condi mesmer, it would only make it worse. Condi mesmer is the one that would profit the most from having clones that you cannot kill.

Infinite horizon should be removed or ambushed have separate balancing for clones.

Infinite horizon already have separate balancing for clones. Except for staff (and axe outside of pve). Just bring the separate balancing to those weapons aswell, but do not remove infinite horizon. This is a really interesting trait, and removing it would make mesmer suffer. The only reason every single mesmer takes it is that other grandmasters are rather bad.

Return weapons and core traits to suitable place to make chrono and core viable and nerf mirage back into position to account for core restoration. If an elite is OP nerf the elite only. Not Weapon sets, not skills the elite uses unless there OP across the board. This goes for all professions tbh it’s common sense on balancing.

Actually what makes mirage op (id argue that it's not op anymore but still) is the insane clone generation, and the fact that you and your clones can attack while dodging (and than you can make them dodge). Both combined makes it really easy to have perma 3 clones, and when you do have 3 clones on condi mesmer, even when playing defensively you still have pressure. So it makes condi mirage hard to kill and easy to die to if you lack of condi cleanses. But you can't really nerf the fact that you can attack while dodging without removing it, so you can only nerf the clone generation. The problem is the clone generation do not come from mirage traits and weapons, but from the core mesmer traits and weapons.The only clone generation mirage in itself bring is from lingering thoughts (because let's get real no one takes self deception) but the clone generation on axe is actually pretty poor, and nerfing it more would make deceptive evasion even more mandatory than it is and would lower the build diversity.

Ps you want to make balancing easy just remove clones give Mesmer clone charges and rebalance condi on weapons. Make phantasm spawn with distortion for its duration and give a clone charge on despawn, clone charges have a visual representation so enemy’s know how many u have, shatters turn those visual representations into real clones that have distortion and super speed running from you to your target. Now u have no more destroyable resource and suffering damage on condi from clones so everything can be balanced properly. Clone mechanic is still part of Mesmer and Mesmer has the QoL it needs for wvw pvp and pve. Have clone charges reset or decay when combat drops too for fairness.

So I take it you're suggesting that mesmer only generate clones from phantasms now, but you can't destroy them ? That would feel extremely clunky and would make mesmer really slow to play. Creating one or two clones every 20 seconds even if they can't get destroyed is not enough if you use your shatters, and condi mesmers would play even more passively with this change because shattering would be a huge punishment for them, and if they don't shatter you can't do anything against their clones when facing them. This kind of change would make the game worse for everyone

[Condi Mirage post nerf]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

It shouldn't. First of all Companion's defense is a minor, then comes with a free minor endurance gain upgrade.Than all those skills except FA are garbage and mirrors are garbage as well, makes you predictable af.

The only skill among those that's garbage is crystal sands. Sand Through glass is a bit weak, but definitely not garbage, illusionary ambush is fine, and false oasis is really strong (let's face it it's one of the strongest healing skill in this game). And yeah it's predictable because this trait is predictable. And this trait in itself is inherently stronger on mirage than on ranger, not just because you get access to it more often but because on mirage the amount of time you get hit by your ennemy and have to dodge defensively is lower than on ranger, making each second of protection more impactful.

Not a lot of times you get 3 mirrors from DD ( I guess you can if you don't shatter offensively), but then again mirrors are trash, having to waste an ability to get into a mirror is a no no in my view.

I always get 3 mirrors from DD, it's really easy to do actually considering all the clone generation mirage has access to (thanks mostly to deceptive evasion). I really fail to see how a dodge + ambush that applies weakness around is trash but oh well. Also you don't need to use any ability to get into a mirror, it just helps to do it faster. And it's not wasting an ability if you were to use it without a mirror to kite your ennemy. And Desert Distorsion isn't just about getting the mirrors, but also getting an access to ambush when you're under distorsion (which is very handy on sword, and there's a lot of synergy with the inspiration traitline).

[Condi Mirage post nerf]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

Mirage Mantle should be worse than companion's defense. Companion's defense only gets activated on a dodge roll, while False oasis, Sand through glass, crystal sands (even tho no one ever will use that skill) and illusionary ambush all proc mirage mantle

Desert distorsion definitely isn't meh. If you shatter 3 clones to use it you look at 4s of access to ambushes, so up to 2 ambushes on all weapons and up to 3 on sword (and trident i guess). But you also get access to three mirage mirrors, so 2.25s of dodges, plus three ambushes for you and your clones. Obviously you need to go through the mirrors for that, but jaunt makes it really easy. I guess it could be low impact if you shatter too defensively (as in you don't have enough clones up, or you are stun and won't be able to use ambush) but just because a trait does not work in any situation does not mean it's meh.

I haven't played much with mirror axes as I'm not really into the condi mirage, but the trait felt really strong to me. I can see why you wouldn't want that interaction to happen tho. Reminds me of desperate decoy which can also works against you as it cancels your skills. I still think it's a fine trait overall tho, especially since condi mirage definitely doesn't need the stealth as much as power mirage does

[Condi Mirage post nerf]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

To be fair the master tier of the mirage traitline is pretty good. And Daredevil also got the exhaustion treatment.

And just wondering, which condi cleanses were you running ? Because condi mirage is a rather hard matchup for power mirage

[Condi Mirage post nerf]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

maybe because they never nerfed mirage only mesmers and chronos

Imaginary Axes : Reduced the amount of torment stacks applied in PvP and WvW from 3 to 1. This skill can no longer be used on targets behind the mesmer.July 10, 2018

Inflicted torment duration has been reduced from 5 seconds to 4 seconds.May 08, 2018

The torment duration of this skill is no longer split between game modes and will now use the higher 5-second duration in all modes.February 08, 2018

Now applies torment instead of confusion. Previous durations unchanged.February 06, 2018

The confusion aspect of this skill has been split, and the confusion duration has been reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW only

Lingering thoughts : December 11, 2018

The ammunition-recharge time of this skill has been split between game modes and has been increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only.

Axes of Symmetry : March 05, 2019

Reduced this skill's damage in WvW to match the PvP version of this skill. The number of confusion stacks that this applies is now 3 in all game modes.December 11, 2018

The physical damage of this skill has been split between game modes and reduced by about 30% in PvP only.July 10, 2018

Inflicted confusion duration has been reduced from 8 seconds to 6 seconds in PvE.May 08, 2018

This skill has regained its confusion-inflicting function.Confusion remains split between game modes and will inflict 6 stacks for 3 seconds in PvP and WvW, and 3 stacks for 8 seconds in PvE, with each clone inflicting one stack of the condition.February 08, 2018

Now applies torment instead of confusion. Previous durations unchanged.February 06, 2018

The confusion aspect of this skill has been split.Confusion stacks have been reduced in WvW and PvP from 5 to 3, and their duration has been reduced from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.Clone-inflicted confusion duration has been reduced from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.November 07, 2017

This skill will now rotate the camera to face your target after the shadowstep.This skill now performs a range check before casting.Shortened maximum distance to target after shadowstep by 20%.

Ether Barrage : February 06, 2018

Torment and confusion durations have been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW only.

Split Surge : March 05, 2019

This skill can no longer be used on targets behind the mesmer.

Chaos Vortex : December 11, 2018

The might granted by this skill has been changed from 3 stacks for 8 seconds to 2 stacks for 15 seconds.March 27, 2018

Fixed a bug that caused the projectile fired by this skill to have inconsistent interactions with reflection skills.February 08, 2018

Readjusted condition application on this skill to apply 1 stack of bleeding for 8 seconds, 1 stack of burning for 2 seconds, and 1 stack of torment for 8 seconds.Fixed a bug that allowed this attack to hit the same target multiple times.Probably SoonReduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

Ambush Assault : March 05, 2019This skill can no longer be used on targets behind the mesmer

Illusionary Ambush : March 05, 2019Increased the recharge time of this skill from 20 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW only.

Jaunt :December 11, 2018

The number of charges this skill can hold has been split between game modes and reduced from 3 charges to 2 charges in PvP and WvW.July 10, 2018

The ammunition recharge time of this skill has now been split and will use a 30-second cooldown in PvP and WvW while maintaining a 20-second cooldown in PvE.March 27, 2018

Reduced damage by 50% in PvP and WvW.February 06, 2018

Condition duration from this skill has been split.In PvE, the confusion duration has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.In PvP and WvW, the confusion duration has been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds.

Mirage Cloak : March 05, 2019

All applications of this skill's effect have had their duration reduced to match the duration of a normal dodge roll. This change does not affect the timing window for ambush skills.

Riddle Of Sand : February 06, 2018

This trait has been split, and now confusion duration has been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW only.

Nomad's Endurance : August 28, 2018The vigor duration of this trait has been reduced from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP and WvW.

Speed Of Sand : July 16, 2019

Instead of granting superspeed when dodging, this trait instead causes Mirage Cloak to grant +66% movement speed.March 05, 2019

Superspeed's duration has been reduced to match Mirage Cloak's duration.

Elusive Mind : October 02, 2018The exhaustion duration of this trait is now split between game modes and has a 6-second duration in PvP and WvW.March 27, 2018

This trait now applies 3 seconds of exhaustion when breaking a stun.

But yeah mirage istelf never got nerfed

[Condi Mirage post nerf]

@Rambo.9280 said:That is unfortunate, the condi version of mesmer is the only one I found fun, I've dabbled with the power/shatter variations and to me they just weren't as fun to play.

You can play power mirage in a similar fashion to condi mirage if you take advantage of infinite horizon and do not shatter too much

[This is how it feels to play mesmer. ( adult content )]

@"Lottie.5370" said:

If a Warrior uses Defiant Stance do you keep hitting them? No, because it's bad to do so.

Same if you're low on life and you see the enemy has retal. If you can't remove it, you stop attacking and do something else because there is literally no point in killing yourself. I think we both know that I didn't mean "you should never attack if the enemy has retal".

I'm pretty sure you can't have a 100% uptime of defiant stance

[New nerfs to Mirage]

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

Illusionary ambush would be good if it was reliable, as it stands condis and things mid air will folow you, and they damage delt might just snap to the place you tp, giving you away. you cant realistically expect it to fool anyone, if it does its cool but you cant expect it to do it.

I've been playing with illusionary ambush for over a year now and it does fool people. I do agree that it's not necessarily the most reliable skill (especially when it tps you just on top of your enemy) but it is still a rather good skill, despite it not being the most reliable

Mirage_Advance cast time needs to go down to 1/4s or it needs to srsl up the damage. as it stands its just UTTER GARBAGE while comparing to abilities of other classes.just compare it to bull charge. Less damage, lower cooldown, built in evade as an extra, stun instead of a blind and it buff damage, thats what you lose in turn you can port back.

once again, saying it is utter garbage is a huge reach. Also your comparison is kinda biaised. You loose damage, build in evade and stun instead of a blind to get back a port back at a higher range than bull's charge (the port back is at 1.2k range), to have a lower cast time, a lower cooldown and a detarget. Put it like that it sounds way less garbage, doesn't it

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Through_Glass just compare it to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit%27s_Defense .bigger cooldown, less reliable, doesnt get glichy, works when you need it too. on top of tht you have folow up 2s knockdown.

A block is weaker than an evade. However I do agree that sand through glass is glitchy when it shouldn't be. And you don't have a lot of ability like Bandit's defense.

And please, teach me how you just kill firebrand solo on pmirage, how do you put 24stacks of vuln on him? how do you even sustain the damage he dishes out.I legit Land every single ability on glass cannon and they can sustain its damage, 3clone shatter, gs2 in melee entire berserker. Its always burst them down from 70% to 0% or they heal to full, apply weakness and prot, and then spam chip damage untill you are forced to leave.

A single dodge is enough to put 24 stacks of vuln on anyone, as long as you have 3 clones. Against a firebrand, it's not really that hard to have 3 clones. I don't try to kill them in a few seconds, i keep applying pressure with my ambushes and shatter when my berserkers are out of cd and when they used most of their defensive abilities, i switch to sword, spam ambush and shatters to rip their boons and i can usually kill them there. I do have to admit that I have to shatter against firebrands (unless they're not playing tank).

@Kondor.2904 said:

20 seconds was indeed cheezy, 35 is overkill though, for a skill that very often straight up fails and does not port you at all. And when it does work it can port you into someone's aoe or some tiny corner far from your initial target. It also does not remove stun, although you do get an evade. Cooldown increase was warranted but not up to 35 seconds for something so chaotic and unpredictable.

I'm not saying that it always works, because it doesn't, but still most of the time there is no issue with this skill. And it doesn't need to remove stun. I would be in favor though of lowering the cooldown to 30s, but not lower.

And by the way, there's a keybind that allows you to 100% target the real mesmer every time he detargets or goes out of stealth.

Never saw someone use that keybind, not in pvp nor in wvw. Or maybe someone used it but I didn't notice it because that skill always gave me some time.

StG has very low priority and weird interaction with axe. You can't activate it while doing some actions, so the action gets interrupted and you get your evade right when you need it, similar to decoy. It makes the skill unreliable and clunky to use too.

I do agree with that.

So you mean if he is essentially afk ? But nonetheless, I would really want to see a clip where you kill a support firebrand around plat2-3 EU in a 1v1 on power mesmer without using shatters (i doubt they will choose to stand afk tho). :)

I have to admit that I have to use shatters against support firebrand. I don't think I made it clear but I wanted to say that I can kill most builds without my shatter (but not every build) and if I was able to do that it means that saying power mirage sustained damage is trash is a bit of an exageration.

@Curunen.8729 said:

Sure, Self Deception is there intended to remedy this potential problem, but just like Illusionary Reversion it's simply not good enough as a trait following the nerfs to Jaunt and IA - even if for some reason you run all deceptions on utilities, heal, elite...

Definitely. I run four deceptions (false oasis, illusionary ambush, mirage advance and jaunt) and I still wouldn't use that trait. I do not get why it doesn't lower deception's cooldowns like most traits improving skill types already do.

[New nerfs to Mirage]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Apart from false oasis, everything is trash including illusionary ambush, it was good when it was 20sec cd, for 35 sec cd there are better alternatives.

When it was a 20s cd it wasn't just good it was overpowered. Illusionary ambush is one of the best skill there is against any class that deals area damage around them (such as reaper, holo, axe warrior). And unless you start acting in a way that shows you appart a lot from you clones, it usually lets you have quite a few seconds where your ennemy is not attacking you. Just don't use it unless you have at least two clones, otherwise the detargeting won't have much value.

Mirage advance could be good with no cast time or quickness on cast and range upgrade, as it is not only is it trash but it's also clunky.

Mirage advance with no cast time would be too strong, it's a two times tp which blinds, deals damage and detargets. I agree that a range upgrade would be nice, considering i use it with gs it feels a bit weird to have to get closer to use it, but what i think would be an interesting buff is if it was a reveal, as detarget skills gets countered hard by stealth. I feel like you're using trash a bit too easily

StG range is a joke (I know Curunen like the range) and the evade time is a mock at mesmers, similar skills on other professions put this one to shame.

The evade time is a mock ? You do realise that Sand Through Glass isn't a singular evade, it pops up a mirage mirror. Combining the both makes it a 1.25s evade. Evade skills usually have the evade lasting 3/4s, sometimes one whole second. I do realize that the second evade from Sand Through Glass has its drawbacks as you need to go through the mirror to do that but you have 8 seconds to do so, and most utility skills that let you evade (and breakstun) have a higher cooldown.

The only reason people use Jaunt is because other alternatives, apart from MI, are garbage.

Not the only reason, but yeah i agree that every mesmer elite (barring gravity well) do need a buff.

No way you can kill anything with moderate sustain with power mirage unless you land a good shatter, people will just outheal your damage, that's why ANerf can't nerf power burst unless they give sustain damage in return.

I rarely need to shatter to kill someone on my mirage. In fact I invested not a single trait on my shatter skills (besides distorsion) so I tend to avoid using shatters unless my ennemy is at around 25% hp. One ambush that I did set up well (so if i have around 12 might and if my ennemy still has 24 stacks of vuln on him) deals almost as much damage as a 3 clones shatter on my build (maybe 1.5 to 2k less ?). I can even kill a full tank firebrand on my own as long as he is not kiting behind walls.

[New nerfs to Mirage]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

keep in mind that if you ambush with 3 clones to apply vulnerability, and thus gain clones.... well you have 3 clones already dont you ? + if you ambush with 3 clones it creates antisynergy that clone would get summoned, and thus replaced during ambush, canceling it out.

I know that, which is why i was wondering if anet could maybe make the clone finish his ambush before disappearing by tweaking the code

[New nerfs to Mirage]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Curunen is spot on. Apart from one trick pony builds everything revolves around good clone generation and those atm come only with DE.ANerf tried to solve this once with IR but nerfed it as soon as the usual qqers began their weeping.They tried to solved it with self-deception and failed miserably, trait is trash and deceptions are trash.

The trait is trash but deceptions aren't. False oasis is one of the strongest heal in the game, and illusionary ambush is a really strong ability. Mirage advance, sand through glass and jaunt could benefit from a slight buff but they're still interesting abilities and definitely usuable. Crystal Sands is one of the worst ability in the game tho i'll give you that.

We already have alternatives but they need a good buff.Would be good if they made other options on core trait lines, I don't know like for every x vuln you apply you spawn a clone on dom, of course they need something to ensure you can't trait more than 1 clone generation trait on core otherwise it would be nuts.

Would be either too strong on mirage or too weak on core mesmer and chrono. I apply 24 stacks of vuln to up to 3 targets each time i dodge on greatsword so that's 72 max per dodge. Core mesmer and chrono have no way of keeping up. Maybe with an icd of 2 seconds (not less as the gs ambush takes 1.5s to cast).

They've created a trash mechanic and can't find a way to balanced it so it seems we're forever stuck with DE.

To address on some other points.It's not that duel is good, it's not, you just need it to reach grandmaster, minor fury, bleeding on condi builds, other traits are garbage.

Power mirage sustain damage is trash even if you've gs ambush.

I'm not arguing that the sustain damage from gs is the best out there, but a gs ambush deals from 4k to 8k depending on if you have your 3 clones, if you still have a lot of might from previous gs ambushes and if the enemy didn't cleanse his vuln yet. 8k is a lot on something you can do multiple times, especially considering that you have up to 3 targets (and if you do, you'll get might faster). Also, the phantasmal berserkers do a lot of damage if traited with imagined burden and empowered illusions, while the cooldown isn't that high (16s). It can definitely one shot a thief. That with gs 2 allows you to still have pressure for when you don't have your ambush ready. Also, you do about 400 hundred per second from bleeding (1k to 1.5k if you are against someone who do not cleanse his conditions) because gs clones and phantasms crits more often than any other clones, and you almost always have might on yourself boosting your condi damage. It might not sound that high but it's still on top of the power damage you already do. The main drawback to that is that you're forced to run domi duel mirage and it makes you really vulnerable to burst and conditions, but if you run illusionary ambush you should easily be able to avoid getting insta killed in a fight.

[WvW Support Mirage Zergling: Feedback and Theory Crafting Request]

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAw2ZlZwmghinzk+zG-z1QYvIY7T6YnRPygMVC+dW8bzC-w

I wouldn't even worry about minstrel. mes doesn't have enough boon output to warrant concentration. spam pain mantra for heals, consider taking stab mantra for obvious reasons. dune cloak, if it actually does remove stab and prot at the top of boon removal order (someone else tested this but i'm assuming its true), is a great choice and honestly would not be surprised if more groups start to run this. using absorption on sword I think is fine, could even get daze mantra for max rips (gotta only use it when pirate shipping or on their backline, basically anytime you suspect ppl are stab-less). wouldn't fully endorse that tho lol. if you haven't already definitely give stamina sigil a test. its ridiculous.

I'm not sure about protection but stability is definitely the first boon dune cloak rips

[New nerfs to Mirage]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

Im of the opinion that instead of giving us more clone generating traits, that can just become as stupid as deceptive evasion, we sould get utility ways of generating clones.like what the kitten is phantasmal disenchanter or defender even supposed to do?50s cd for 1s taunt on 1s cast time, who in their right mind made this???

Especially since it almost never hits

phantasmal disenchanter sucks too, ofc both of those have to be bad becouse chrono with its kitten CS and chronophantasma exists.

Phantasmal Disenchanter should be changed/buffed untill its usablePhantasmal Defender should be changed/buffed untill its usable

The biggest change i want to see on those two is to make them more reliable, and if you ask me that's the only buff phantasmal disenchanter need, because it's a huge boon rip and it bounces, so it's already useful). The defender needs more buffs than that though.

Lesser Phantasmal Defender along with entire inspiration needs to be made usable.

I think it's important to be careful with the inspiration traitline though, it can easily make condi mirage feel extremely overwhelming again if buffed too much. But I agree that many traits on this traitline are straight trash.

Decoy and Mirror Images should be just merged together, we could get new utility in their place.

Mirror Images is fine, it's good clone generation which can be useful on builds that do not use deceptive evasion. Decoy is trash though and i see very little reason why anyone would take it over signet of midnight.

and dont even get me started on how bad our elites are, yikes.

Agreed, I wonder everyday why one of our elites is a worst version of a toolbet skill (toss elixir S)

[New nerfs to Mirage]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

dueling traitline is one of the only good traitlines, instead of making changes to traitline that is used in every single mesmer build in existance, how about we do changes to unusable meme traitlines that are super trash, or niche. looking at you inspiration, domination, and illusions.

I disagree, the domination is not trash at all. And while it's not exactly compatible with every mesmer skill, saying it is niche is a bit of a stretch. And while inspiration and illusions aren't strong traitlines, they're still definitely usuablue.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

is deceptive evasion even used for anything other then procing IH? the moment it stops doing that its not only not gonna be good for the synergy, its gonna create ANTISYNERGY that if you have 3 clones, and you dodge, the freshly spawned clone will replace ambushing clone, meaning you can never get 3clone ambush off.and since thats the only reason to use this trait, nerfing it in such a way removes it from the game preety much.

Maybe anet could make it so that the clone that is supposed to disappear because of the 3 clones limit does its ambush before disappearing. I don't think it would be impossible to code, and it would make it possible to make this trait feel less underwhelming without nerfing it into oblivion. And as i said, while I do think deceptive evasion should be nerfed, I think that some other things on the mesmer traitlines should be buffed aswell, so that there might be more build diversity and dueling might not be mandatory for mirage.

[New nerfs to Mirage]

@Daishi.6027 said:

@Engal.6359 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:

Also Power Mirage needs buffs.

Why? At least in pvp it's pretty balanced atm.

Not compared to any medium armor (where it's literally replaceable in slot), or war, or condi weaver. And is significantly less defining in a team fight than Rev, FB, or Necro.

It's inferior to it's condi counterpart, even after it gets nerfed because reliable consistent damage you can apply while dodging will always trump one shot burts vs anyone who can read. While Core mes does better simply because it can hide the burst better.

I'd argue Power Mirage

Might

be balanced if this is the standard to which we are basing a truly "balanced" spec that EVERY OTHER class should use as an example to scale by. Hopefully therefore being balanced after everything is finally cut down and brought in line... But I don't consider general under performance to be "balanced".

Nah Power mirage is fine, you can actually dish out consistent reliable damage on it too thanks to gs ambush, and only switch to sword when you need to finish your ennemy with a shatter or need to play defensively. I agree that it doesn't need any nerf, but it doesn't need any buff either. Especially if everything that's op is getting nerfed (except herald for some reason). If you really want to buff it maybe bring back the vigor duration from critical infusion to 5s, as a condi mirage playing without precision would not get much value out of that buff, and a condi mirage with precision and the dueling traitline is not that tanky (so not the worst offender among the condi mirages). I don't think that's necessary though (but i'll admit, i would be glad to see deceptive evasion nerfed and the rest of the dueling traitline buffed).

[WvW Support Mirage Zergling: Feedback and Theory Crafting Request]

I don't think support mesmer can contribute in any meaningful way in a zerg as of now. However i would suggest taking at least one mantra and restorative mantras instead of medic's feedback. the amount of time you would make good use of medic's feedback is rather low, while restorative mantras would heal for 3k on 5 people (so 15k in total) and you can proc it quite often. also, mantra of concentration and resolve can always be useful.

the diversion synergy is quite nice though, the aegis share is really what makes it somewhat worth it. However, you do not get much value out of desert distortion. distortion does not grant you dune cloak, and your ambush skills aren't really that useful in a zerg settings, chaos vortex would probably get reflected and mirage thrust won't probably interrupt anyone due to stab, plus its damage is negligible. and the probability that you have any illusion alive when shattering + the fact that you would have to go seek those mirage mirrors from the shatter makes the mirage mirror aspect of the trait worthless. mirage mantle would probably be more useful.

also do not get rid of master of manipulation for illusionary defense. master of manipulation gives superspeed to your allies and it's one of the rare useful thing you could give. this trait + the leadership runes would make your elite useful even in the middle of the fight. Just taking mirage mantle instead of desert distortion would probably help you survive long enough, along with your defensive stats, your dodges and invulnerability.

I do not think this build would be more effective on full minstrel, you do not get much use out of concentration as you do not give a lot of boons. clerical is actually quite a strong contender for this build. the toughness makes you quite tanky, thanks to your power you do a little bit of damage and it boosts your healing from healing prism, and you naturally get more healing from cleric than from minstrel. You might want to throw some nomad with it tho to get more vitality (or some minstrel). I don't think celestial is quite the fit though.

Finally one last thing, while sigil of absorption on sword is a good idea since you get access to your daze on sword quite often, and you have another cc on your focus, i don't think it's good on staff. you get access to your daze on staff once every 35s, and with all the stab from the guards it is likely it wouldn't interrupt anyone. i'm not sure what other sigil would be better though, maybe of renewal ?

Overall I still think that power gs would be more useful, if you take portal/veil/mass invi with it. If you have sigil of endurance on the greatsword and desert distortion, you have a lot of access to your ambush (and a lot of clones generation with deceptive evasion), so the damage you dish out is actually on par with the scourges. You obviously don't get access to all the corrupts but having a portal, veil, or mass invi is still a huge amount of utility. I personally even run with a mantra of concentration or of resolve when we're lacking of guardians. You just have to be careful to not die because of the retalation though. But if you really want to go support go for it !

[Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:why not change CLONE ambush duration and actually BUFF real mesmer ambush???

This is of note. Is there something that can be done to shift the damage back to the mirage? Weaken the clone condi and power output and shift it to the actual mirage? That might be best for everyone. the more damaging mirage becomes more visible and less inclined to play passively, and they have more control of their damage, while opponent has less to worry about and only really needs to avoid the real mirage's ambush.

All theory. I could be wrong.

I mean the power output from clones is already way weaker than from the actual mirage, my clones tend to hit 600 with the greatsword ambush (with empowered illusions), and even less with the sword ambush. I'd argue it's weak enough

[Reducing the number of illusions from 3 to 2 might just fix mesmer...]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Game was released 7 years ago. Some people still have trouble realizing the most painfully obvious mechanic.

1 - Clones either don't move, if ranged, or run in a pattern if melee.2 - Clones only use autoattack3 - Clones don't have the same boons4 - Clones don't have food effect (if wvw)5 - Clones don't have trait effects icon.6 - Clones don't have signets equipped7 - Clones don't stealth and don't teleport.8 - Clones don't have the same hp.

Also between every clone aa, there's a bit of a down time where they don't do anything

[Link Jade + Aurora Glade - language problem]

About "french arogance" one more screen (see english part Lo Be N):Situation: our commander create public WvW tag with invite link to Discord (speaking english, optional to join). I only sent link discord invite link to squad chat. And this was response.

How's that arrogance ? The dude is just being informative, there's always plenty of people on the jade sea teamspeak and most won't join a discord as it's rather incovenient typing the discord address and such (especially if it's an english speaking discord, listening to people you do not understand isn't what's the most fun thing to do when you can speak to other people you understand on teamspeak). And it's not like you can't join teamspeak or speak english in there either. Teamspeak is much more suitted for wvw than discord is, and is pretty big in jade sea so people there are even more relucant to use discord.

[Link Jade + Aurora Glade - language problem]

Many french people (including those on jade sea) do not talk english. And Jade sea is a french server, they went on it because they wanted to talk french. You can still ask stuff in english, plenty of people will answer to you in the right language, and usually relevant info is in english. The screenshot you showed is just a few people having friendly banter, they do not have to do that in english, just like we're not asking you to talk french. If they turned on you for talking english well that would be wrong but they're not doing that, and it seems that's kinda what you are doing here

[Mesmers should not have stealth]

When it comes to mesmer, you never know if the character is in stealth, if he's one of the clones, if he's even still there or if he teleported super far away... Now it might just be manageable if all of these parameters didn't change literally every few seconds. Everytime the mesmer spawns new clones, you have to guess which one is the real one, or if the real one is even visible.

Spawning a new clone doesn't remove targetting. Unless the mesmer is a mirage and is actively trying to look like one of his clones, it's really not that hard to detect him. And if he's actively trying to look like one of his clones, he loses quite a bit of damage and a lot of mobility until he stops. I think you just need to train yourself against mesmers a bit more, it's clearly not the hardest class to face anymore (but not the easiest either i'll grant you that)

[Mirage Build Tweak]

To justify why i think false oasis is better, while mirror does have a lower cd by far, the heal from false oasis is twice as strong (about 8.5k with the five pulses), gives vigor which is essential on a mirage and a mirage mirror (so basically a free dodge). Also the cast time is really decent for a heal skill, while mirror takes a while to cast (especially since you have to cast it more often).