lodjur.1284

All elite skills are combat-related They all either have an immediate and/or lingering effect. The majority have linger effects, such as the field from ghastly breach, the venom from basilisk etc, these are the effect that should be cleared upon entering combat. To a degree this is already done many places in PvE. Make me realize what? That there would be some small and easy to fix issues, ye I guessed that myself too, few things are without issues. Primarily anything below 20v20 is where it would make the biggest positive impact. Beyond that a single person's elite skill has no impact anyway. It would change the flow of larger fights quite a bit too though, which I kept in mind. Nice word sallad. There already is a system in place, if you use Sneak Gyro and then swap it for example, you lose the sneak gyro effect already. You don't lose any other effects. That's once again the kinda thing I assume the reader would've assumed. I guess overestimating the reader is a reoccurring problem for me. To make it really simple 1. Enter combat 2. Elite skill gets put on full CD 3. Any fields or buffs created by your elite skill previously gets cleared, the exact same way as if you had swapped your elite skill Signets are the more interesting thing as putting them on CD but keeping the passive would make them more powerful relative to other types of elite skills. I personally think that's probably okay given the signets we have (and will get) in the game. It does leave Mass Invisibility and Sneak Gyro still useable as engage tools. They are already frequently used for that and it does make them weaker engage tools. Battle Standard could still somewhat be used to engage, but given that it requires a specific situation to have any impact and one would need to be entirely outside of combat waiting for that situation to arise (with the risk of getting hit by random skill thrown around) and needing to make it close enough without getting hit and before it's no longer relevant, I can't see it being a common "strategy". As well as the punishment of playing with battle standard at all with these changes.

I dont join zergs. No idea what "my server" w/e that "my server" means runs. Ye, there's stuff beyond blobbing, idk if you know this. For anything below the 50v50 scale it's quite noticeabl This happens usually more than once/fight. But idk maybe if you only are in map blobs you don't really notice things? Core support "should" use it. You said and I quote you now "That's not the question or issue. Which class has short cooldown elites is more relevant." You brought it up. I simply listed what elite skills are actually short CD. You seem very angry, does the description of a scourge running in and dropping elite and dying 3 sec later hit a bit close to home? Also ye maybe they should be out of combat outside too, or entering combat should clear them similar to how swapping template clears stuff like previously placed traps.

This fixes the root issue of the extremely common and in relation to skill too effective gameplay pattern of Run in Drop Elite Die I would love for elites like Winds/Ghastly/Grav Well to not exist, but that's even going even further, however we didn't get any new busted elite that promotes that (except maybe Shadowfall) so who knows Signets I would personally say should give their passive benefit but not be possible to activate until their cd is up

Yes it does Ye ghastly breach, winds of disenchantment and gravity well have no impact It's typically paired with Winds/Ghastly/Grav Well (and other elite CD skills) It prevents the stealth+elite bombing, the stealth is what sets up the elites Winds Ghastly Gravity Well Lich (tho obviously not really a thing in zerging but outside) Given those are essentially the only elites that really impact fights Do you even play WvW if you don't have this happen to you on a everyday basis? So you think that combat would become Wait 90 sec for Winds/Ghastly Engage with Winds/Ghastly hoping your enemies doesn't have Winds/Ghastly This would at least give the enemy team the option to engage before you can elite skill bomb Gravity Well Winds of Disenchantment (it's not CC, but it sure is used to CC-lock) Ghastly Breach (see winds) If you wanna get further into the less common ones you have Tornado Rampage Entangle Moa Putting a larger emphasis on actively participating in a fight for more than 5 sec is good though Large scale fights are centered around it Outnumbered fights are centered around it To a lesser degree even numbered small scale fights (like 4v4) are centered around it WoD and Ghastly are the ones I primarily have in mind. Let's take a common-ish scenario, me and a few people are fighting a larger group Scourge #183198 rushes in, drops ghastly, hits f1-f5, dies 3 seconds later. He still had a huge impact on the fight. With this change, he wouldn't be able to ghastly, would die in 3 sec, have barely any impact. However an enemy scourge that can actually stay alive for 75 sec will provide a similar impact to before, by having played better their relative impact is increased. This isn't some edge case scenario, this is something that happens multiple times in a majority of fights. Well there is very few short cd elite skills (to me short cd is sub 30 sec) Sub 30 sec elite skills in WvW I can think of are Mantra of Liberation Feel my Wrath Headbutt All the core rev elite skills+Kalla Mortar Kit It's a pretty short list. There's a few signet elites also which could be relevant to discuss how to handle the best way. They already are, having to wait to gain access to your elite changes nothing. Practice reading comprehension before calling someone an idiot It would be very much the same in 1v1 or w/e, just make the very low end players on some classes die faster in fights they would already lose It would be very different in 4v4 4v12 12v12 12 v blob blob v blob Idk, you paint up these abuse scenarios, where you somehow manage to put your enemies elite skills on CD without putting your own on CD, which doesn't really seem plausible. Guess I found someone who can't survive 75 sec in most fights.

It fixes People having a huge impact even if they're not good enough to stay alive more than 3 seconds just by dropping ghastly/winds Stealth bombing entirely Effective suiciding on enemy siege How focused around Wind/Ghastly more or less every fight becomes Various sorta "cheap" attempts at instagibbing before a fight starts It also lowers the amount of CC in the game by a lot Encourages actually staying alive and in a fight Shakes up the meta for a lot of situations It would change gameplay to put less emphasis on the start It would change it to make it so that numbers matter less compared to skill What class is dependant on a high cd elite in a 1v1 situation? There's very few elite skills that have a short enough cd to try to create that situation, it would simply not be any different from now.

Well if it wasn't I changed the thread title to make it so.

As you enter combat, thought that part was fairly obvious.

Would be an improvement to all scales of WvW and fix quite a few problems. Would also make the CD on elite skills matter more.

Earth literally used to give toughness no big nerf to tempest damage reduction happened during HoT, many nerfs to various other stuff tho Rune vs Trait is probably the more relevant distinction here. But scrapper was multi yes. Geo according to my testing was additive

That's just incorrect. The only context is having balanced around it before, long term changing to multi is better tho Having Protection and using Earth traitline in melee with damage reduction food (while being outside of Earth attunement and no Frost aura) is 20% more. That being the most common scenario. Imo from a WvW perspective tempest is the only class (and other Ele builds using earth) are the only ones that lose out significantly. Something like full damage reducing herald was already not a thing. Imo it could've been. What made it bad is adding it to a minor patch with 0 compensations to the biggest losers. Had it been together with a rework of the earth traitline minors I would've been all for it. Now it just looks like they could've waited with this change until the next big balance patch.

Toughness works the same. Damage/toughness Since toughness was always "multiplicative" it's the exact same as before Things that say x% less damage taken is what got changed.

As did I but when an overwhelming majority of people one talks to misunderstands it, it's imo a very poor tooltip What confuses me is that the previous tooltip said 40%, not 39%, if it's been changed to now only give 39% or 39.6% then it should've had a patch note. (Tbh a clarification would've been nice even if the old value was already this and it's just a tooltip change in this case)

Protection doesn't say it's a 67% decrease. A number of damage reductions are now instead how much damage is left instead of how much it is reduced by. Hence the 67%, 100-33=67 It's not particularly intuitive to me (and most people I've talked to have misunderstood the new tooltips). The real headscratcher is why hardy days 61 instead of 60

Conceptually I don't think anyone is disagreeing on it being a good change what me and some others think is bad is how it is a big nerf to certain builds traitline that weren't getting anywhere near 100%. Had this change happened next balance patch together with reasonable balances I would've been very pleased with it. Now it very much begs the question, why release a half- finished change without any of the surrounding changes that should accompany it. Few months longer of the recent state wasn't by any means problematic

Ye I just picked 1k as a convenient number to showcase the difference, ofc this works all the way down to very small hits (until rounding becomes relevant) all the way up to infinitively big hits, the relation between post and pre patch damage stays the same

That's incorrect. You're taking 8.6% more of the original damage. But this is not the same as taking 8.6% more damage. Which gets more and more visible the higher you previously stacked it. Compared to before with a 40%+10%+10% setup you're taking 21.5% more damage. If a hit would hit you for 1000 without any modifiers Then before the patch you would be taking 400 damage with those modifiers After the patch you're taking 486 damage 486 is clearly more than 8.6% more damage taken than 400 If it was 8.6% more damage one would be taking 434(.4) damage

Ye, I think particularly for earth it's an issue because it by itself provides 3 different sources that now all synergize with each other poorly. This also means that all 3 of the minor traits in earth are pretty terrible (outside of the normal cooldown reduction of course). Retribution has a similar issue, but the actual damage reduction trait is already rarely taken and the minor one isn't really possible to have very high uptime yourself outside of renegade anyway (due to a rather poor rework of Retribution, where they, I assume missed to change the vigor on dodge to Resolution on dodge) hence I think it's a smaller problem as it affects balance less, from a design point it's still rather poor to have internal anti-synergy within a traitline tho. I sadly doubt they will look this over particularly much, if I thought it would be fixed within a month or two, I probably wouldn't have bothered creating this thread to be honest. I hope to be wrong tho From a balancing perspective one could now in theory create much more interesting and individually powerful damage reducing traits as the risk of them stacking and getting 100% (or even something like 80%+ starts getting pretty silly if the uptime is high), which is very good, the potential lack of follow up (which is sadly what I believe will happen) is what is the to me most upsetting part. A change I regardless of lack of follow up I thought was very good was the resistance no longer providing damage immunity change, but I had quite high hopes that Anet would see that resistance is now a very safe boon to give out quite freely, yet no new sources have been added and outside of Pain Absorption getting 1 extra sec of it, no old sources of it got buffed. Similar things is the reason for my lack of faith in reasonable follow ups to "system changes". So like I said I think it was a needed change in a long term perspective, but wrong time and patch for it

The outrage from me at least, is that the Earth traitline got hit very hard by this change, especially on tempest. Tempest was never absurdly tanky to a degree where it would warrant a nerf. It isn't about that they changed this, this should imo have been the case since launch, any kinda reductions dealing with stuff like damage taken, cooldowns, resources etc are much safer to keep multiplicative. That doesn't mean one should just change them without any other changes. It is about how changing it without any kinda surrounding changes, especially after 9 years, in a minor patch, is kinda strange? Surely it could've waited til they had to time to look over various traitlines If you pick Earth traitline, you get 2 minor traits that synergize poorly now, whereas before they synergized well. The best trait in the line also no longer has synergy with those. There are many ways that this could've been avoided 1. Buff the numbers so they end up similar to pre-patch, this would require more than doubling these traits 2. Rework one or both of the damage reduction modifier traits as to not have an internal anti synergy within a traitline on minor traits. This build was never getting close to 100% and was never absurdly tanky. Just normal tanky. There is essentially no way that Earth was the intended target, if there even was one. Presumably we will never know tho as Anet isn't in the habit of releasing something similar to balance manifestos with reasonings behind every single change. Assuming any specific build is being targeted it is definitively something along the lines of the 100% damage reduction herald builds that have at various points been possible (in PvE only, due to the traits required being much weaker in WvW/sPvP (and also boonrip existing there and those builds not really achieving much)). Tho my personal theory is that some new elite spec we will get to see soon would've had the potential to reach 100% with old math, but that's purely speculation. Not only that but the entire change feels very lazily done, roughly half the tooltips now instead say how much incoming damage is left, some of them incorrect numbers (hardy conduit claims you still take 61% damage, even tho it should be 60%, unless they stealth nerfed it from 40% to 39% protection) most traits say you take reduced damage. The change feels unfinished and as if it was something planned for the next balance patch a few months from now that was just thrown in there. Had the change instead been accompanied by reasonable traitline changes (like merging stony flesh and geomancer's training into one damage reducer just as an example), all tooltips being correctly changed, ideally at the same time as a balance patch, then I would've been happy about the change even, as it is in the long run one that needs to be done. But 9 years post launch it could certainly wait until the next balance patch, even if the next balance patch would be end of dragons. It was not a pressing issue at this particular moment in time.

Well it has the potential to be, at least in WvW there are currently no builds that can abuse it, same in sPvP and afaik in PvE too. If they had appropriately buffed a certain number of traits for the builds most affected, especially if those builds aren't using multiple traitlines for it, but where all the traits are from the same line.

I mention this multiple times Agreed on the last part, problem is as I have said not what they're doing but what they're not doing

Then why bring it up? Also listening to warriors talk about feb 28th makes me all happy, almost happy enough to forget the bad change

Feb patch was good tho for WvW, may 11 even better. sPvP has always been terrible, nothing new there, a gamemode where soldiers/magi/a bunch of terrible stat combos and force sigil are considered too strong is kinda hilarious tho. Fact remains that warrior has multiple strong builds for any group size (including solo and dueling) in WvW and anyone claiming otherwise is disingenuous and/or needs to l2p.

Today I learnt MATs are extremely relevant for WvW

I am sure warrior is just weak tho it's not a l2p issue, ye, for sure mate

I mean the funny thing is I don't even play ele