RisenHowl.2419
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Posts posted by RisenHowl.2419
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Crossing over any unblockable ground CC causes each of vindicator's dodges to fail, regardless of if you have stability. Includes line of warding, sanctuary, spectral ring, unsteady ground, and static field
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Haven't gotten any today at all despite getting tons of junk items
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Make bladesong harmony bounce instead of pierce. That's all it'd take
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10 hours ago, Santo.2419 said:
I've been fishing for a bit, and no luck. I'm starting to think I need a to cross a fishing power threshold maybe?
Peeps that have it, maybe share your fishing power too if you know it.
I'm 195% fishing at the moment.
I just got 2 with 510%
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8 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:
Among other things. Ghastly Claws, Spinal Shivers, Dark Barrage, Voracious Arc, Devouring Cut, and the Elixirs are all 10k+ crit potential. I haven't tried Lich, I cannot imagine, lol.
you can push shroud 4 over 20k
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9 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
You don't seem to know or understand what stochastic actually means.
A stochastic process is anything that can be modeled as random distribution and approximated with a statistical solution. Take a handful of pennies and drop them into a river stream. The pennies are all going in the same general direction (down the stream) but where each penny is with relation to other pennies is considered randomly distributed. that random distribution can then be analyzed statistically to describe the behavior of the handful of pennies.
That's the thing, you're trying to apply a stochastic model to living players who follow trends. It's not random movement, it's purposeful.
In a stochastic model the players would have an equal chance of moving in any direction at random intervals, making it impossible to determine where any players will be within an aoe's radius. Okay, great. That'd lead to diffusion of damage across each player moving within an aoe because at any point any 5 of them are going to take damage dependent on who is closest to the center of the aoe.
You think it leads to dispersed damage across the entire group but it doesn't because the players involved aren't randomly distributed. Some of them are going to stand in the back, some stand in the front, some stop moving, some are stopped from moving. Your base assumption is that people are moving randomly, which is wrong, which is why your further assumptions past that point are also wrong.
You're trying to apply a static model to a complex organic system and then passing it off as the obvious answer. Pennies floating down a stream can't decide to ignore gravity by swimming upwards, they have no individual goals which they're trying to attain, there's no intention in their movement pattern which makes them harder to predict.
9 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:In a zerg, players do not move in perfect parallel lines to each other. They move with autonomy in general directions (like the pennies in a stream) their movement is thus a stochastic, random process that can be analyzed statistically.
Players are more likely to move in parallel lines than not as you can see in the videos. Players to the left of the tag tend to stay on the left while they move, players on the right of the tag do likewise. That's why you see them moving sequentially instead of amorphously.
Also wtf at the pennies in a stream moving with autonomy, do pennies have some secret method of locomotion I'm unfamiliar with? I'm pretty sure inanimate objects lack autonomy while animate objects possess it. That's a terrible false equivalency.
A better comparison would be flocking birds and how they follow simple rules to produce complex group behaviors. That'd be a model worth looking at because it better reflects the nature of the problem as opposed to trying to shoehorn a complex organic model into a static mathematical model.
9 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:So again...you are just incorrect in saying they "aren't" moving stochastically...wrong, they are ALWAYS moving stochastically because player movement is never linear. People are not robots. People move around in a way you can not perfectly predict.
You can watch them move in straight lines, it's right there in video. You're right, people aren't robots. There's better ways to predict their movements than claiming 'it's all random', it's not. Their movements are goal driven, they follow simple rules, and the combination of the two produces complex behavior.
9 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:The behavior of dispersion is a property of spells and their relation to player position at the interval of time at which those spells pulse, which is a random process that you can not predict, because you do not have full knowledge of player position to dictate future position of players.
And yet people are able to land their aoes in such a fashion that they regularly drop 5 people at a time with them. They do it every day across every server. They do it despite lag from high ping, despite having no knowledge of complex systems, despite aiming their aoes independently of any model.
How on earth are they predicting random movements with such high precision? I'll let you in on a secret, it's because player movement isn't random. It's predicted by trends, if you know the trends you know where to place your aoes for best effect.
9 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:I showed you, one of many times now, where your spells are clearly being dispersed, therefor the target system does IN FACT work this way. You can nitpick all you want about the PVE baddies you are fighting in T4, that barely know how to ball together, and without any useable data, but it's already been shown, that the target system works in the way I have described it. There is nothing left to argue about, accept that and move on to something constructive. The fact that you still deny that this is how it works is actually still amazing to me...
I don't think anyone's arguing with you on the basics.
-aoes have a target cap
-players above the target cap in that aoe take no damage
-players are selected for damage in accordance to their proximity to the center of the aoe
Your model on how that damage is distributed across a zerg though is wrong, it's based on a false assumption which is why it's not seen functioning in game outside of very specific situations (large number of players stacking tightly in one spot with very little incoming spike damage).
Even in the clip you posted 3/4 of the people weren't moving at all, they were standing still and using inconsistencies in the enemy aoe placement to soak the damage. That's just relying on the other group to place the centers of their aoes far enough apart that they select different targets. You can see 3-4 people taking all the damage and getting healed or ressed through it because they're not moving randomly, they're sitting in the aoes.
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1 minute ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
https://i.gyazo.com/696ed51d0f8a2efa84a6a4ec62e4f46d.mp4
This is a shot from your clip, which actually shows the exact situation I described above . The first tick of damage effects 5 people moving...the second packet of damage hits a completely new set of 5 people, and again after that a new set of 5 people take the next packet of damage.
And when you go 3s further into that clip you see 4 people hit by the same aoes repeatedly until they go down, because they try to walk through it in a straight line. Because they are not moving stochastically.
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49 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
No that's incorrect, the looser the blob, the less dispersion there is. The tighter the blob, the more dispersion there is.
if 5 players sit in an aoe they're each taking a hit per second. If they spread out so only 2 are being hit by the aoe we're seeing a 60% reduction in damage. The best way to disperse an aoe's damage is to just not stand in them. The second best way is to throw expendable bodies at the damage and hope to target cap enough of it. The dumbest way is to stack your players in one spot and hope the enemy group doesn't do enough damage to crack through.
49 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:I literally posted two reproducible tests that confirms that this is how the target system works. You've actually yet to show any tests at all. In fact, you've only posted pretty meaningless videos with no relevant information or data about the fight.
You posted a 5s clip of how 10 people can walk through a lava font, then ignored every aspect of my posts that you don't have an easy answer to.
49 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Evidence that shows that it is true to reality.
that's a pretty lackluster opener on blue's part, they fake twice and walk directly into a bomb before even trying to be offensive. They don't try to land a coordinated hit until 1:00, please bring this to NA lol
16 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:Here you are also incorrect. Dispersion still happens because your AOE's do not follow targets, they are targeted and remain on the ground where you placed them, and thus the relative distance from players to the center of that AOE is always changing, as players move across it.
And when they move across it in a straight line, or they're unable to move, or when there's only 5 potential targets in an aoe's radius? The aoe is ticking on the same person over and over, the damage is not dispersed.
16 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:https://i.imgur.com/hvI40Cw.png
An example of how an AOE that is pulsing is changing targets at each pulse based on proximity to their closest targets as a Zerg moves in a single direction.
...and? that's obvious man. it also carries the assumption that players are always going to be moving across fields in straight lines, they don't. They see the person's health in front of them start getting chunked and move out of the way before walking into the aoe. You're assuming dps are going to place their damage in positions that are easily walked through too rather than the dps coordinating a spike when and where they can stop the enemy group from moving out of it.
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4 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
Lol is this some kind of psychological tactic your trying to pull for lack of anything better to do? Make it seem like I'm picking on you now?
nah man, I'm just concerned for your health. You've had a hard on for me all week and I'm pretty sure you're supposed to see a doctor after like 12 hours?
4 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:How about saying something like this for once :
"I was wrong about how the target system works, based on this information X Y Z, I'm gonna go run a TEST A B C... since I own a guild and I have the resources to confirm results and have more data...maybe we can get a lot more specific information on how the system works, which will benefit everyone in the game."
Maybe something's gotten lost in the sauce for you, your concept of how the targeting system works is flawed. You make wild assumptions about how players will fit your model but they're not confirmed in reality. This is a continuing trend I see in your posts, it's always some three page paper on a topic that assumes perfect conditions.
-Players don't spread their aoes for maximum dispersive effect like your model suggests, they concentrate them in a single area to minimize the dispersive effect. This is true for the other side of that coin too, players won't stand in aoes to help disperse the aoe's damage-they'll avoid the aoes entirely.
-Player movement isn't stochastic, they move with intention to complete a goal. Players follow trends, some are always a little ahead of the tag while others always lag behind. They certainly aren't spread perfectly equidistant from each other in any aoe. There isn't as likely a chance of a hit in one area as another, it's determined by how the players position themselves in response to both their group's movement and the opposing group's movements.
-If your model were true to reality, players would stack in a single spot to strafe left and right while dumping defensive cooldowns. They don't do that because it doesn't work for longer than a few seconds unless you greatly outnumber the enemy group. Damage is still very high in gw2, the issue is that there are less people around who know how to use it.
-I gave a whole summary on the last page for why removing target caps is asinine.
-I don't own a guild, I'm just an officer in a guild with access 50gb of evtc files. I'm well aware of how the target cap system works and how to use it to best effect. That's how we can fight outnumbered while you struggle along. https://imgur.com/bEvvfIh
4 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:But nope you just can't help yourself...you actually can't stand someone else being right about something and I can tell, honestly who cares if you are wrong...accept that or not and move on...but you can't get over it... when someone you hate like me is right. You'll go so far as to refuse to believe it even when presented with hard facts (like video and image) that it's happening right there in you're face. You've done it before and you do it on every post you have responded to me with (where I show you evidence and you dismiss it as some non-sequitur)
Watch... your response to this comment will prove what I'm talking about. If it doesn't I'll be genuinely surprised.
If I'm wrong it should be easy to prove. You put up a clip of how damage is dispersed with a pulsing aoe against targets that are running through it, which is great. Trying to generalize how one specific movement pattern disperses damage to every fight between every group is less than great, it's naive as kitten.
Here we have two outnumbered scenarios, in the first my group is half the size of a single enemy group. We don't spread our damage out among the 40 of them, we condense it in a single area to maximize the chances of landing lethal damage from multiple overlapping sources.
The enemy group is a loose blob, which should maximize the dispersive effect according to your model. Instead, the players move sequentially because they're all following a single leader- when the person in front of them moves they follow. The damage does not get dispersed evenly because players have goals that drive their movements. This allows a single pulsing aoe to hit the same target repeatedly rather than dispersing at all. This is not the behavior you would see consistent with a stochastic model.
The second clip is of our group fighting outnumbered against 3 smaller groups. This should be ideal for the three small groups standing right at their spawn because our group can only focus aoes on one location at a time, guaranteeing that 2/3rds of the enemy players are at no risk for damage. Ideal dispersion through having more players, right?
According to your model, no one should be able to fight while significantly outnumbered because the dispersion of damage is too great an advantage. Here's real world proof along with written logic on why your theory is bad, please don't pop a blood vessel.
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30 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
I don't think its occurred to you yet, that I'm not showing you anything. How you behave and given the drama you start with people...I am not putting any guild that I have played with out there for people like you to drama over. If someone else asks me, I will show them...you? No thanks.
Secondly, the above doesn't matter, you've already been beat...to bad you can't GvG your way out of being wrong.
you have no video then? that's unfortunate
I've posted in two threads this week, both times you jump in to bash me like you have little dog syndrome or something. I don't think the problem is on my end =/
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1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
love when people watch you getting wiped by better players and being wrong you mean?Idk man, I haven't seen any videos of you going 10v30 yet =/
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48 minutes ago, God.2708 said:
TO be fair it's better forum content than 90% of what gets posted. I'm sure they don't mind if we stare.
I'm all for it, I love it when people watch
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Assumptions I'm not seeing covered on your napkin:
-Individual players move with intention, they follow trends specific to each player. Some players are consistently ahead of the tag, some are consistently behind. It's always the same players. To test this you can check any logs for a night's run, if players behaved according to your model you'd see an even dispersion of damage resulting in very similar death/time ratios for every player. Instead you see that some players consistently have 3x the deaths of their peers over the course of months, or are always present at the top of the 'damage taken' list.
-There's a 1s invulnerability window when a player goes down. They're stationary in aoes for that 1s and subtract from offensive target caps. This could be further expanded into the number of players dodging at any given time or using other methods to become invulnerable. This can even include players who are stunned or immobilized, forcing them to take up target caps with consecutive hits, reducing the amount of dispersion occuring.
-Players move out of damage hot spots. They watch each other move out of aoes too since they can see each squad mate's health bars. Your model doesn't account for players actively avoiding damage rather than soaking it up with the target cap. If it were able to be abused like that the meta would be to stack everyone in a 180 radius spot and strafe back and forth while dumping defensive cooldowns. People don't do that because it doesn't work unless you greatly outnumber the number of players attacking you
-Damage isn't randomly assigned. It's by proximity and aimed by humans, who will not place their aoes for maximal dispersive effect like your model suggests. They attempt to coordinate their aoes in a single spot hoping to generate downs by overlapping their effects in as tight an area as possible.
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4 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:
It feels like you two are having your own discussion outside of the topic.
How did all of this start or what was the root argument relevant to this thread? Maybe you should summarise and bring it back to that. Are any of you arguing for nerfing supports, increasing target caps or making outmanned fights easier or are you just talking about who's better at fighting outmanned?
Ed. Nevermind I can see that Justice does, well, to some degree at least, I just lost track of it because the argument was limited to examples of wells or pulsing AoE for some weird reason, as it isn't very relevant given the position he is taking or trying to represent. It also seems to float into theory not related to concrete changes to the game which makes it even more difficult to follow.
You're right, this has needlessly digressed. I'll put up a summary on why removing target caps is stupid.
Gameplay reasons:
-The entire game would shift to whoever hits first in large scale fights. Any 1 person would be capable of wiping 70 if they stand too close together. People stack up to build siege, enter/leave chokes like portals, or even just to kill lord npcs in towers and keeps. This can be easily achieved with stealth pushes and portal bombs. Literally anyone can stealth, walk into your map queue of people, and blow it up in <1s.
-Removing the need for tight coordination between groups of players decreases the skill required to play this game mode overall.
Logistical reasons:
-The server load would increase dramatically and no one's going to pay for that. The game gets unstable with a 5 target cap as is.
-Players would leave for other games en masse because teamwork and coordination would no longer be rewarded. There's less reason to stick around and form a community if you're punished for standing too close to one another.
-The whole purpose behind the current system is ultimately to keep people playing and buying gems by forming interpersonal connections so they can compete in a cooperative setting. Smaller communities means less incentive to keep playing gw2 means less gem purchases for anet.
-The entire trait and skill system would need to be overhauled. We'd go through years of wildly broken balance as people find exploits anet missed while they try to build an entirely new system from scratch. All of their data on trends and expectations from the last 9 years becomes worthless overnight.
Logical reasons:
-fighting 10v50 wouldn't become magically easier, if anything it would become even harder. The 50 will likely adjust to a cloud comp. With no reason to focus on builds that bring ranged, non-projectile aoes they're free to focus on skills that have high single target spike damage and pulls, allowing them to easily rip apart smaller groups. On the flip side, the smaller group is going from hitting 5 targets with their aoes to hitting 1-2 people due to the larger group spreading out, giving them even less potential for meaningful spike damage.
-The game would devolve into 'who can cloud out and camp the enemy spawn point first'. That sounds awful
-An advantage smaller groups have against a stack is that they can out-maneuver them. No one's going to chase down 5 people with 50 every time they leave spawn, it's boring for everyone involved. Right now a group of 5 can rotate to towers and camps to sneak them. That changes if people don't need to group up, as soon as you leave spawn they'll call for numbers and you'll get swarmed.
Other fun bits from this post's replies:
-Apparently it's hard for people to fight minionmancers because the minions will soak up all your damage in a 1v1? Why people aren't single targeting the necro or putting their aoes closer is still a mystery-The game at present is 'unfair' because people who talk to one another have an advantage. Grouping up with other players is hard when people don't like you
-People think zergs are 70%+ support characters. This really baffles me
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14 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
Risen won't show any outnumbered fights...but I have one here that he won't show that speaks for itself.
The best you can do is pulling up a stream from ... 9 months ago? JADE tags 3-4 nights a week during NA prime time, we have four active tags covering three time zones. We lose fights like dozens of times a week, that's what happens when you have >300 active members of varying experience. The difference is we log all the data and use sophisticated tools built by our players to parse it, then base comp and build decisions on real world findings. You should try it sometime.
Still haven't seen any clips of you fighting 10v30 though, so what's your expertise founded on?
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3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
People in G Fight community know of Risen…he’s “new” to that scene and is a laughing stock there. Refuses to actually play even fights against other guilds, brags about outnumbering them…Which is also why he probably doesn’t have nor wants to fight any 15 v 30’s let alone any even fights.about fighting outnumbered, most people can’t do it anymore. The people that did no longer play, and the knowledge of how it was done was lost with their departure. Part of that knowledge is how the target system works…and you can tell that majority of people on this thread don’t know so it makes sense people cant 10v30.
In addition, too many nerfs happened and fighting outnumbered is way more difficult to do because of the limitations placed upon the unfavorable scaling of fights.still salty man, that's unfortunate
also tf is the g fight community? there's like 30 incels left on NA that want to make that a thing. I get that you want to pass around theoretical napkin math that has no basis in reality but if your ideas worked people would use them lol
Edit:
If anyone wants to see where justice learned how target caps work-
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22 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:
bro i cba reading all that.. i already know you're wrong.. 2 posts ago you just said that the target cap favours the bigger group.
and now you're asking me how its skewing fairness? how about you scroll up.
you're asking us, those who aren't co-ordinated as you, have as many guild members as you/friends.. to force ourselves to look for more players, just so we can have enough number to tackle a blob... what if those friends aren't online? what if we all running different builds and aren't as homogenous as all the other players? don't dictate to us how the game should be played. you're right in saying we already have the tools, ANET need to pay attention to this post and remove the restrictions and let players play... theres stability, aegis, protection... supports constantly being moaned about how op it is... well remove the cap on how many can be targeted... lets see how op they are.. if people still survive whats the problem? if not than have the numbers be in proportion to how difficult they are to pull off.. surely thats farer than being unable to damage the extras at all right?
really the big benefit is a minority of players in a given situation has a better chance of having a bigger impact against adversity. and EQUAL chance.. even if its 20 v 40... while they are outnumbered how many they can hit should still be equal to the bigger group.. how can you ARGUE that.. are you insane?
Well, can't argue with that
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1 hour ago, Jarwan.8263 said:
and theres no other ways to do that but to skew the fairness in a competitive game mode in favour to those with more players online?
really now... how about making the game fairer and having players enjoy it enough to recommend it to friends... enjoy what guild wars has to offer instead of doing it through social connections of people already in the game for gem store items cause thats quite an insidious thought.
How does it skew fairness exactly?
Those players coordinated with each other. If you wanted to coordinate with other players, you could. You've chosen not to. You have every tool to make it fair at your disposal, instead you chose to not use them in favor of crying on the forums. The system's fair, you just aren't using it.
26 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:misunderstood what you meant. deleted. yes.. thats how its supposed to be. fair above all.. who places the skill down first.. not who has more than the other.
its not about me... what about the other players who log in to find a mostly empty home server barely capable of defending its own keep from just 10 players? cause the odds in favour of them winning as few casual players is not only close to 0. but its hard cemented. and that disadvantage is compounded based on how many extra enemy players join the fray.
How does 'whoever presses their skill first wins' make things more fair to you, does it require more skill to push a button first or to coordinate the efforts of 50 people?
You, and those other players, should form up into groups. That's how the people that are grouped up got grouped up in the first place. Full squads didn't just appear in this game at launch and perpetually stay, they developed over time. Two years ago our group ran 5-10, now we're averaging 35-40.
26 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:even an increase in the limit will be a big step forward in balance... but it also has to be in proportion to squad size.. which is capable of having 50. (i only play ele so i only know how my skills work) yes some overloads should hit 10, maybe earth 30.. phoenix 20, dragontooth 40... but to have them all be equally 5... just no.. unfair. i know lifes not fair but a company i paid money to should least look into it and make it so.
So if i'm understanding this, you only play 1 class and you only roam on that class but you somehow have the experience to dictate that a 9 year old game mode should receive a massive overhaul because... you can't make friends? This sounds a lot more like it's a you problem than a game problem man
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38 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:
bro just say you want to stack up with a tag and be done with it. I don't even play solo most of the time... i'm in a group roaming an empty borderlands unless we spot a group of 10 by lucky chance without them waypointing and if theres 5 of us, we can't hit all 10... and if we lose.. absolutely fine but theres also inbuilt mechanics saying 5 of those players are technically 100% damage free.
If there's 5 of you you can hit 10 np. You can hit 20 np so long as you get a good opening bomb off. It's stupid to think you should be able to hit 50 though.
38 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:and fighting 5v4 is just meh.. rather fight outnumbered and have no restrictions to how many we can damage.. its what players who put time into learning their classes should be able to do.
The 50 people who put time into their classes are meaningless, right? I mean, only your time has value.
38 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:what those skills can or can't do is a separate topic altogether.
you need 10 players to fairly fight 10.. 20 to fight 20... in a game mode that can't guarantee even amount of players at any given time.
I was fighting 45v70 on friday, we ended the night with a 1.34 kdr. If you need 20 to fight 20 that's on you
38 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:not everyone likes meta trains m8. quite a significant like to break off and do their own little thing.. and overtime you realise how skewed it is when theres nobody left to fight but blobs at certain point.. just log off? this is the only mode i enjoy playing.
If all you're interested in is small scale combat, try pvp. There's less people on open world builds in green armor though
5 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:yeah no... you can't force players to play a game how you think it should be played.. in what world is that ever okay? the target cap is there to force social connections? in a game full of real life anti-social people including myself.. okay... its a competitive game mode lad.. get your feelings out of the way.
I'm not forcing anything, i'm telling you the reality of the situation. The game is ran by a company that wants to be profitable, profit is gained from long time players buying gems for cosmetics, forcing players to form social groups and pursue long term goals keeps them playing. They can absolutely build the game's mechanics to support that. That's kind of the point.
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19 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
You boast about exp but you've never won any 10 v 30's or 15 v 30's. Your meme videos of burn DH clapping PVE zergs at a tower base is not a realistic interpretation of what actually happens in fights. Burning condition is easily cleansed by experienced players, and your delusion that groups would "spread apart" is not based on any real analysis. Like others mentioned, if healing and boons lose target cap as well, then it remains favorable for folks to group together in balls still.
The game would largely remain the same, with the exception that small groups can actually fight bigger groups with a chance to win the fight. A skill that targets 80 people against against a group of 20 people isn't gonna magically do 4x damage. /forehead
I've showed you mine. can you do the same?
A skill that's capped at 5 targets would in fact "magically" do 4x the damage against 20 with the target cap removed. I thought you prided yourself on your math?
It's not favorable for people stack, at all, if the entire stack can get deleted in 1s. Who cares if you can get 10x the boons and healing out if your group can get nuked by a single player faster than your group has time to react. Stealth pushes and portals would be guaranteed map queue wipes.
20 minutes ago, Jarwan.8263 said:Risen.. nobody said any of those things couldn't happen? but you know what? still undeniable that target caps favours bigger group...
i honestly don't care if people switch metas on how to organise their stats and builds, and whether or not those are fair cause that's a separate topic all together... the fundamentals in how many you can attack is unfair. it favours large groups, i'll keep saying it until it gets through to you cause its undeniable.
most of the meta trains are 70% support, 20% of burst classes and 10% rangers who didn't get the invite but still hang around the tag.
and if theres 50 of them, you need to be under the same condition as them, same quantity of players AND THEN its about who drops the quickest kitten first... not fair.. if 20 players have the smarts to take down a 50 man train of meta builds then they should be allowed to without RNG restrictions on who or not is in the aoe field and how many. its fair.
up to the player to decide whether or not they want to heal through those bombs or scatter... you should learn how to be able to defend yourself in a competitive game. not rely on safety nets hard coded.. and if you didn't know how unfair it could be then i apologise for seeming brash about it.
Obviously target caps favor big groups, this is a game mode that caters to forming social connections because that's how you keep people playing and paying. Anet couldn't care less if a single player leaves because they can't form social connections, that's not their bread and butter man.
Do you understand that it's also unfair for 1 person to reliably wipe 50? You seem to think it's only fair if 1 can wipe 50, but those 50 grouped up and put time into coordinating with one another, time that's invalidated completely by removing target caps. If they don't adjust to the new meta those 50 people will happily just find a new game where their coordination is rewarded. Then the game loses players which is less people for you to fight and less money in anet's pocket. There are real-world considerations that outweigh your desire to fight 'fairly' against 50 people. Whining that you can't do it all on your own because the game is 'unfair' to single players is childish af
If you want to fight 50 people, find 49 friends who feel the same way and group up. That's how the game works lol
No, most meta groups are 40% support, 40% dps, 20% utility. Pug groups are whoever was around and bored. I don't know what you're fighting that would run 70% supports, i think it's more likely that your damage is low so you think anyone who isn't full glass must be an unkillable support character.
You're under the impression that the meta would change so 20 coordinated people can take down 50 coordinated people. I'm telling you, based on years of experience and tb of data, that it'd only take 1 player to kill 50 coordinated players faster than they could react any time they stacked up. The game mode's fight structure would entirely collapse. There would be no stacking, at all. Not on lords in keeps, not while building siege, not while moving through portals, none. Groups would spread out in 600-1200 range amorphous blobs to benefit from 600 radius support skills while minimizing incoming aoe damage. They'd build for stealth ressing and pulling downed players. They'd build for ranged single target spike damage and pulls to yank people in.
They would absolutely wreck any smaller groups by picking them apart instead of carpet bombing. This is not the outcome you're looking for if you want to make it easier to fight large groups. The best suggestion i've seen in this thread is making support skills 5 target and damage skills 10 target. The problem with this is that everyone would just run as much damage/CC as they could and overwhelm the support players. A better solution would be making current 5 target damage skills that have no other effects 10 target, that would only increase potential damage output without increasing potential strip/CC output. This benefits groups that tightly coordinate their bomb more than anyone else.
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8 hours ago, Jarwan.8263 said:
1. yes, yes it does.
2. well yes? thats the whole point. if a few players wanna jihadi across the plains to drop a bomb on a zerg (half the maps pop on some occasions) they shouldn't be punished by being unable to do very little of anything especially when the zergs already stacked together booning and healing.
nothing prevents that same zerg from retaliating with ease. both groups of differing size should take equal risk.
whereas right now the bigger group has a hard-coded advantage over the smaller group. people still focusing on the 1v50.. please take the time to consider what this mechanics actually there to do. I could be wrong but i'm 70% sure that i read the nerf to power coefficients were placed to extend the length of zerg fights more. and i believe target caps are designed to do exact same. perpetuate zergs. zergs is what wvw is about... if thats the case, don't force it in the codes too.. let people decide how they choose to play, and don't give them a safety net when they choose to stick together.
I've given examples of how 2 classes could wipe 50 stacked players in the blink of an eye without target caps. It's something almost every class could do if target caps were removed. It would be the end of people stacking up entirely because stacking = mass deletion.
It's a game mode that supports everything from 1v1s to 70v70v70. If you can't fight 70 people with your 1, how does it make sense to you that the game should cater to your 1 vs their 70? Wouldn't it make far more sense for you to group up with 69 other players so you can get an 'even' fight? Otherwise you're kinda saying your enjoyment as a single player that doesn't want to interact with other players is more important than the enjoyment of 70 other people who've chosen to play together which is a little conceited right?
Do you not understand that removing target caps would remove the ability of people to 'play the way they want to play'? It would force them to play in a cloud. That wouldn't favor you and would make it significantly harder for you to roam at all
8 hours ago, Jarwan.8263 said:3. think about that for a second.. thats exactly how it should be... the trade/off between stacking vs clouds should be part of the decision making in zerging. as it is already when you decide on using your skills or not facing said zerg.
and really ask yourself as a solo player if you'd better deal with that than a boon ball stacked on 1 another.
if all 50 cloud around (which takes organisational skills) to attack me and i go down as a result, thats completely fine. but on the off chance i managed to get one down. that player should then not be safe on virtue of being above the target cap when players swarm to ressurect. its unfair. take the L
It already is a part of the decision in playing with a coordinated group? Most groups have their own composition worked out, the reason people don't run a coordinated 50 person cloud right now is because it's less effective against good groups that stack and more effective against small groups of pugs. No one gives a kitten about fighting small groups of pugs because you're going to run them over either way with the current system. If the coordinated groups are forced into clouding though the small groups may as well find a new game since there won't be any competing.
You can already single out and finish individuals in a large group, use mist form or literally any other invuln/stealth mechanic available to do it. You may not get away after you get the stomp but removing target caps doesn't help you there in any way.
If that group is a cloud or a ball makes no difference, they'll still be able to res any single target downs you generate but you'll be far less likely to kill them and get away if it's 50 people focusing on single target damage and pulls rather than builds that can carpet bomb.
8 hours ago, Jarwan.8263 said:4. well thats why you have supports around you dumping cleanse right? if you are seriously that inept in a game to not be able to shift your index finger an inch over to cleanse it off for yourself or any group members, then you all deserve to get clapped m8.
builds/stats/conditions is a separate topic.. i've said this already in like 2-3 separate responses.
You're misunderstanding the scale for how much damage a single person can put out if they know what they're doing. You could wipe an entire map queue with literally a single button press in 1 second. If you hit them from stealth that's GG. If they cleanse or mitigate the damage it's not a problem because you only pressed 1 button. You can just press the same button again. Guardians can do it 8 times in a row if they want. Who gives a kitten if they only kill 20 with the first button press, they can wipe another 20 a second later. Stacking would be dead without target caps.
8 hours ago, Jarwan.8263 said:5. wait what? your argument sort of falls in on itself because all of that already happens when 1 servers actively dominant over the other.
the advantage that a solo player has over a blob is that they are all on 1 part of the map? therefore what? maps empty for you to roam around in? surely thats a disadvantage for solo players. you playing a tourism simulator?
is that really a good thing?
how could that be something you want? an mostly empty bl cause everyones stacked instead of clouding.. theres 3 separate exits from a waypoints spawn, use another.
The advantage a single player has against a zerg is that the zerg won't split into 5 groups of 10 to hunt you down, they don't give a kitten about chasing 1 player around, it's a waste of time. That's your biggest advantage as a single player right now, you can rotate around the map and pick your fights when they're favorable to you because a map only holds 70 people, if 50 of them are focused on a tower in one corner of the map there's only 20 other players spread out across the rest of the map to stop you from doing w/e.
If the meta is to spread out so your map queue doesn't get popped by a single player, there's more people available to chase you down and delete you.
8 hours ago, Jarwan.8263 said:But you mean that it allows you to maneuver around those who are stacked.. well it doesn't change the fact that those who do, equates to 1/3 perhaps 1/2 of the maps pop. if not all at times. i would much rather clouds around a map than large stacks of boon ball any day of the week.. least then if 1 goes down.. the zergs have to make the decision of running over to swarm and ressurect. and if they do they should therefore be open to receiving any kind of damage aoe placed on that spot. UP TO YOU to take the risk. every single player would be under those same conditions including me if i choose to join a zerg.
You think you'd rather fight against a map filled with people using builds that excel in destroying single targets?
I feel like there's a ton of people with your mindset who pick off stragglers that are trying to get back to their group and think 'ah yes, zerglings are terrible and they only get carried by numbers.' They're not terrible, they're using builds that are optimized to fight 70 people. They're not running condi cleanse, they're not running (m)any stun breaks or mobility tools, they're not running builds that can reset fights infinitely until their burst lands.Removing target caps forces those players to run builds that are optimized to delete w/e special nonsense you're solo roaming on. Why on earth do you think 50 people would stop to res their teammate so you can bomb them if instead they can just single target focus you from 1200 range and rally their downed teammate instead? They're still going to massively outnumber you, they'll just be doing it on builds that are even less favorable for you to fight.
8 hours ago, Jarwan.8263 said:its unlikely that any one person has the necessary damage stats to ever be able to take down a zerg in any given situations given that those players have brains too and could just as readily utilise their defensive skills. so why is the removal of target limit suddenly a big fuss? could just give it to us for 1 week. see how it goes.. ANY CHANGE would be nice compared to what it is now.
This is pure ignorance, you don't have the skill required to blow up a map queue were target caps removed. There are literally hundreds of people out there who do.
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15 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
Again, the main reason those numbers are so high, is that a lot of it is "ineffective" dmg that gets facetanked and outhealed . If players would actually die as fast as those numbers might suggest, total dmg done would be much lower. I've been there, farming easy top dmg with staff weaver while still relying on the mass of the zerg to actually confirm kills. Doesn't really mean anything.
It means you're functioning as part of a unit, you might be playing a class with spike damage while others are playing classes that are good at finishing downs. Together you're more effective. This is kinda the basis of a team oriented game?
15 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:I haven't zerged much yes, but occasionally i did. Mostly as a new player, because it was the easiest way to feel useful despite being trash at the game. Later on i tried to join squads on some occasions, but always found it incredibly boring and unsatisfying.
So you have little experience but a ton of opinions, valuable insight for sure. You've heard of dunning-kruger?
15 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:Being able to consistently get top dmg and surviving just fine (downstate carry ftw!) on a class i had less than 1 hour of gameplay experience, while at the same time having basically no impact on the outcome of the fight myself, no matter what i would do or play is not what i enjoy.
Were you fighting an organized group? After 1h on staff ele about the only thing you're capable of doing well is dropping meteor shower. It's a high value skill sure, but used poorly or timed poorly it's worthless. It's very strong if you're fighting in a cloud while defending structures though if that's your idea of zerg fighting.
15 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:Also a lot of the things that make gw2 combat interesting and skillful such as reading and reacting in different ways to skill animations (a lot of them are impossible to see in zerg fights due to ridiculous visual clutter), keeping track of your own as well as enemy cooldowns and all the little things that can differentiate an average player from a decent one and a top tier players from the good ones. Yes you can and should keep track of your enemies "main" bomb and maybe your own grps stab sources in a zerg, and probably not tank too many red circles if there is a lot of them, but many things just fall by the wayside. I mean, how often do you coun't enemy dodges, interrupt heal skills or any skill for that matter (deliberately, not accidentially!), cancel your burst because your enemy just used an defensive skill or to bait cds, intentionally used a certain combo finisher that wasn't pre fight smoke blasting, all while having to juggle between offense and defense every single second. And that's just a few examples. I feel like so many combat mechanics are either irrelevant or impossible to take advantage of in larger fights.
This a great showcase for your lack of experience in big fights. You feel like the combat mechanics are impossible to take advantage of because you don't know how to do it. There's different metrics, like you're not going to try and interrupt a single player's heal skill during a zerg fight, but if you don't get stab up at the right time 4 of your teammates are going to explode on push. You don't drop your bomb at the right time in a coordinated spike, your group doesn't generate downs.
15 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:Nope, once again, incoming dmg is not the main issue and it would be even less of a problem if zergs wouldn't be able to focus entirely on offense just because their numbers protect them.
What zerg is focused entirely on offense? At a minimum 40% of every squad is made up of support characters, generally in minstrels lol
Do you dedicate 40% of your roaming builds to defensive choices?
15 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:We already mostly fight "clouds", at least when outnumbered more than 1:2, because trying to take on a somewhat coordinated boon ball with such a numbers disadvantage is pretty pointless. We already get boon stripped and pulled and focused down with single target skills. All those things happen already and they will continue to happen, yes. But they won't get harder to deal with, because aoe caps have no relevance in this regard. Also even clouds tend to stack for ressing or in choke points. Taking advantage of terrain is key when fighting larger numbers. We aren't sitting there open field, trying to win "poke wars" (or at least try to, ofc things don't always go as planned).
They will absolutely get harder to deal with. Zergs are optimized to carpet bomb areas right now because that's the meta. Remove target caps and the meta changes, those zergs will optimize themselves to rip apart any elite solo roamers while they spread out more. Instead of ranged aoe skills having the highest priority in builds, it'd be pulls and single target spike damage that are favored.
I don't know why so many people in this thread believe 'oh remove the target caps and i'll farm the big groups of bad players'. No, they'll just bring builds that are better at blowing your kitten up and they'll still outnumber you 30 to 1 lol
15 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:I also don't think players would stop entirely to grp up and coordinated guild grps would cease to exist.
They wouldn't stack in one spot, but they'd still group up and coordinate sure. I don't see how this is something that's favorable to you or any other small groups of players though
15 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:I have played a game with no aoe caps and certain aoe skills that would increase in dmg the more players were hit - without limit.
Is that game named gw2? If not you're comparing apples to oranges. gw2 isn't designed to function without target caps
15 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:I'm pretty sure 9 year old data is pretty useless at that point anyway. Also data needs correct interpretation in order to be useful and that's something that requires getting into the fray here and now, not looking at some numbers from years ago.
I'm not saying it would be easy, but i also don't think it would be impossible. Huge outliers can be identified and addressed quickly and then there needs to be frequent follow up adjustments with maybe some occasional bigger shake up to prevent the meta from getting stale.
My point is that balance decisions take years to stabilize. The game would be dead in the water before it could stabilize from a change as monumental as removing target caps.
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1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
Anyone who commonly fights in small grps of 5 or less against larger numbers knows how much incoming dmg there can be without target caps - and how to deal with it (within limits ofc). No need for arc dps (which btw doesn't mean small scale players don't use it). Zerg players are used to facetanking, because that's what those small target caps allows them to do, which is why it is rather easy to generate big arc dps numbers vs zergs.
Contrary to what many seem to belive here, survivability is not the biggest issue when fighting as a small coordinated grp against larger numbers. Surviving for a while in like a 5vs10-20 players is often very much possible. But effective counter pressure - which btw would automatically reduce incoming dmg - is not and target caps are the main reason. Which allows those larger grps (especially when it is 15+) to completely disregard any defense and just spam their entire offensive kit while brainlessly charging right into our bomb. Few might go down, but it won't matter, because it is impossible to punish the zerg if they stack up on the downed to press F and and get them up nearly instantly while still sitting in our aoes.
Being able to effectively support each other (including taking advantage of the op rez mechanic) is no incentive? Idk about that. When i'm playing with guildies, we try to stay close to each other (and getting separated usually means things start to go bad) even tho we usually don't benefit from target caps at all. Do we want to stack on top of each other in the middle of the enemy bomb? Ofc not. But maybe the enemies also shouldn't be able to facetank out dmg like it is nothing?
Because it would be totally impossible to change skills individually or adjust certain mechanics such as the escalating nature of permeating wrath. Absolutely a reason to not ever touch target caps at all, yep ...
You are talking as if aoe caps are the sole and only reason for players to grp up and coordiante and support each other. That's just bs. Also if players want to spawn camp and zerg down solo players, clouding or not, they can do that just fine already. Changes to aoe caps wouldn't matter at all in that regard, except the zerglings would have to be a tiny little bit more wary about potential counter pressure.
People who are only fighting 5v10 have no idea what kind of numbers are possible. A DH in one of our runs last month pulled 16.8m damage over 2h. That's with a 5 person target cap. 168m damage with no target cap, conservatively, or 23k damage each second. Removing target caps would unhinge this game.
People running in zergs know that sometimes you'll get unlucky. You lose people on enemy bombs that there is simply no avoiding. They know how to maneuver to cover their downs, how much incoming damage is acceptable, and how long they have to recover before the other group can bomb again. There's a skill to it that's similar to what's needed in small scale outnumbered roaming, which is something you seem to play down only because (i'm assuming) you've never experienced it.
You need to spend so much time avoiding damage that you can't effectively finish the larger group's downed players before they can res them. I'm very familiar with this, i tagged with 45 vs 70 on friday and had a difficult time finishing the downs effectively despite us out-damaging the other server on almost every fight. This wouldn't matter in the slightest though if the target cap were removed because these scenarios would cease to exist. No one would stack, at all. You would still be outnumbered, but it would be a cloud that's focused on pulling you. That would be even more difficult to fight outnumbered than the current boon ball meta because it wouldn't matter how coordinated your small group is, you're not going to have an answer for being stripped and pulled into a cloud over and over. It's not like big guilds would go away and you could roam supreme, it'd just be your 5 getting harried across a map by a coordinated group of 30 in a cloud.
You talk about how it'd be easy to adjust any problematic traits too, but I don't think you understand the complexity of what you're suggesting. This kind of change would invalidate any data anet's collected over 9 years on how to balance things. Hundreds of millions of data points, worthless. Each skill would have to be assessed individually and they would still, for certain, miss things. We'd go through literally years of wildly unbalanced gameplay, hemorrhaging players the entire time.
As far as fighting goes, support aoe caps and enemy target caps are the only reason to group up tightly in a ball. Without aoe caps those same players would group up in a new configuration that'd adjust to the meta, it absolutely won't be one that's favorable for smaller groups to fight. The biggest advantage a smaller group has against a bigger group right now is that the bigger group likely won't single out individuals, instead relying on carpet bombing. That changes when the bigger group is a cloud. Right now the bigger groups stay tight, meaning you have room to maneuver around them. In a cloud they'd just surround you and pick you apart. Right now large groups are optimized to fight other large groups, with no target cap they'll be optimized to rip apart any small groups of 5 they come across. This is a lose-lose man lol
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18 hours ago, Jarwan.8263 said:
Then i guess it should never be brought up again.. just because that topic was brought up when? 2013.. anyone could have googled that.. even i did to see how many times it had been brought up.. you are arguing on the skills interaction.. i literally said no changes should be made to the skills, thats a different topic altogether that you arguing about.. increase or remove the target limits simple.. you clearly want blobs to have monopoly on maps cause you probably run with them constantly.
show me your gameplay infusion.
also question for you mate.. how do you feel about no downstate? would you rather it be perma? or scrap the event altogether?
Alright, so i've got a bit of time.
Hopefully this satisfies your 'i'm good and you're not so your facts aren't relevent' attitude.
Removing target caps is a terrible idea. As Infusion pointed out above you have no idea what kind of damage people are capable of putting out because you don't use the tracking tools available. From what I can gather in your posts you think removing the target cap will allow you to fight massively outnumbered.
Here's the thing, if targets caps are removed there's no incentive for people to group up in the first place while fighting. They'll spread out. You'll still be outnumbered 50 to 1, only now your skills will just hit 1-3 of them at a time because they're not going to stack up like morons. All 50 of them will still be able to focus on you though np.
If people were to continue stacking all it would take is 1s for any guardian to wipe an entire map queue via permeating wrath (with 1 button press you could apply max stacks, 1500 burning, >200k damage per target with 0 condition damage investment). 1 Berserker could engage with their LB burst followed by 2 arc dividers and boom 50 bags. You think necros summoning 6 minons is bad, wait until they can each summon 50. It'd take all of a week for the meta to shift entirely away from stacking to ranged damage + pulls only.
'Fights' wouldn't even be a thing, you'll have groups of 35 spawn camping in a cloud. You won't be able to leave the spawn as a single player with 30 people targeting each individual as they try to get out. If you try to group up, see above. Anyone who manages to stealth through will get hunted down by 10 people, good luck even taking a camp in those conditions. The single biggest advantage a solo player has against a blob is that the blob can't be everywhere on a map at any given time. A cloud can though.
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is that really a good thing?
Virtuoso misses the mark in WvW
in Mesmer
Posted · Edited by RisenHowl.2419
There's some stuff to love with the new mesmer spec for wvw like focus pulls into sword of decimation, but it falls short on damage and mechanics.
-Too many projectiles. Dagger 3 is a projectile that shoots out more projectiles, like it's mocking you.
-Too many piercing abilities, not enough variation. There's almost never a scenario where it's worth casting the elite if your f1 is available
-The larger the groups are the more buggy the spec becomes, shatters that are unblockable suddenly just disappear without dealing damage, might be due to bad tracking
-Greatsword 2 is the only reliable source of blades without running dueling. The phantasms from gs4 and focus 5 frequently bug out and don't spawn at all. Torch and pistol are both unsuitable for any large scale fights. Sword 3 requires you to hit a target to spawn a blade...
-Staff and scepter are both projectile based. Staff is great for roaming but terrible for larger scale content while scepter offers little outside of its block. You already get a block on each shatter activation =/
-Overall just really low damage. All of these clips I'm in full or almost full berserker gear and even when presented perfect bombing opportunities it falls short by a mile. Even if phantasms were fixed and I were able to get 5 blades for each cast of bladesong harmony the damage would only be 10-15% higher, still well below what you'd expect with 4k power and 240% crit damage.
Easiest fix right off the bat is to make f1 a bouncing projectile instead of piercing. That might make the spec worth using even if the phantasms don't get fixed.