Dragon's End Meta is Garbage

[Sobx.1758]

30 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's not about calculating damage to the single digit. Once again you misrepresent and (intentionally?) misunderstand the point.

I didn't misrepresent or misunderstand anything here, he's specifically repeatedly complaining about "hidden parts of the equation", stop intentionally avoiding what doesn't fit your opinion. Or maybe you just didn't read what I've quoted as well as the rest of the related posts in this thread -but at that point it's still not "my misinterpretation", but instead more of your negligence before you've decided to respond. And don't get me wrong: you're free to not follow the discussion, but then stop pretending I misinterpreted anything here, when it was indeed spelled out in this thread.

 

30 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's about understanding the impact of different attributes and changes. Which doesn't even need the explicit formula.

So... it's about "understanding the impact of attributes/changes", but at the same time...

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What you describe with hovering is one part of several layers of obfuscation GW2 applies to the damage system.

...hovering is not enough because... um... because what? It doesn't inform you about the impact your changes make? It does. That's the point. So what are you trying to say here? The game doesn't tell you what attributes do? It does, with pop-ups while you start playing the game and leveling up, as well as when you hover over stats after pressing H. And no, what I'm describing isn't "one part of several layers of obfuscation", it's a fast and easy feedback that tells you about the influence of the changes you make in your builds. Suddenly that's not what we want anymore?

30 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Another is trait systems not being reflected in that display. Damage numbers not being applied directly and several layers of multiplicative modifiers. 

Yeah, that's when nothing more than basic capability of understanding what you read comes in play. Because if the trait says "increases damage by 5%", you know it "increases damage by 5%". How do you know it? Because that's what you've just read. If somehow you don't understand that, then it's not the game's issue.

30 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

though that they would change based on gear is not obvious either.

That's somehow non-obvious? Oh, so you just don't understand how to use that simple feedback system. I'll explain: equip your level 1 sword, hover over the skill. See what damage it shows? Good, remember it for 10 seconds (if that's how long it takes for you do double click on a sword from your inventory). Now equip level 2 sword and hover over the skill again! What happened? Did the damage raise? Welp, just like that you've solved that mystery using simple feedback system, still without knowing the equasions the game uses. 🙄

Edited March 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Mahou.3924 said:

 

Way to be overly snarky and hostile in all of your replies. Maybe git gudders like you need to behave like that to feel good at the end of the day.

How is that overly snarky? You can see this in metas all over Tyria. It's been a fact of the game since it was released. Where's the hostility?

[Erise.5614]

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I didn't misrepresent or misunderstand anything here, he's specifically repeatedly complaining about "hidden parts of the equation", stop intentionally avoiding what doesn't fit your opinion.

And it is obfuscated. These things are never explained. You can find it out yourself if you have a lot of time and understand all the displays. But at that point you already know the results well enough and don't need to figure it out yourself. 

 

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So... it's about "understanding the impact of attributes/changes", but at the same time...

Of the combat system. Including attributes. 

 

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...hovering is not enough because... um... because what? It doesn't inform you about the impact your changes make?

It's not obvious that skills do that. If we'd poll the community right now about it I can guarantee you that 50%+ do not know skills are affected by stats.

But also, it only is part of the issue. Like, what's better? Increasing ferocity or increasing power? Does power affect ferocity? How do these things interact with your traits? How does weapon damage factor into this calculation? 

All of this is hard to figure out. Takes a huge amount of time and initiative by the player.

While the game doesn't even suggest there is something wrong with what one has right now. 

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

How is that overly snarky? You can see this in metas all over Tyria. It's been a fact of the game since it was released. Where's the hostility?

Because it's an anecdote that doesn't apply here. It's just pointing fingers and putting blame on people who did nothing wrong.

But please. Be my guest. Watch my run and point out all these AFK dead people.

A lot of these strawman are just thrown around while not actually being relevant. If it was exclusively because people AFK or the majority of players fails to participate in a mechanic or because they don't use any skills. Then I would agree with you. That the meta is generally fine and it just needs good commanding.

But that is not what's happening in the actual game.

Meaning this kind of finger pointing at non existent issues is most definitely snarky and deflecting from actual problems. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[The Boz.2038]

57 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

EOD strikes are pretty much defined by not having an enrage timer. You can lose half your squad as corpses/potatoes, and still look at clearing the strike. The meta is much closer to raids in that regard. 

Is Chak Gerent also Raid level? Because it also has a timer...

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Is Chak Gerent also Raid level? Because it also has a timer...

Used to be before the nerfs. When it had an actual DPS check and required extensive coordination between lanes.

Nowadays the DPS check can be overcome on any gear or build. So the timer doesn't serve the same purpose as in DE.

Also, it's even better designed because a map that doesn't have enough people on all lanes fails immediately before the encounter even starts. You know. If people fail mechanics, the event fails. Fantastic stuff!

If DE had something like that it would already help significantly with frustrations as it cuts down the duration spent for failed attempts by between 40 minutes to 1h. 

[Sobx.1758]

20 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

And it is obfuscated. These things are never explained. You can find it out yourself if you have a lot of time and understand all the displays. But at that point you already know the results well enough and don't need to figure it out yourself. 

1. No, it's not.

2. So now you suddenly agree with him it's about the exact equasion? But in your last post it wasn't about that and I was just "(intentionally?)misinterpreting things". Now that I informed you that's specifically what was written in this thread... it suddenly is about that?

Stop being intentionally and blatantly dishonest, please. Like... after this instant "180" change, it can't be any more obvious. And you're just casually carrying on as if nothing changed about what you've said here, lol.

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Of the combat system. Including attributes. 

What do you mean with this response? I know it's about "combat system attributes", that's all we're talkinga bout here. What else was it supposed to be about?

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It's not obvious that skills do that.

Only if you don't bother reading the skill descriptions in the first place.

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If we'd poll the community right now about it I can guarantee you that 50%+ do not know skills are affected by stats.

Wow, that's another great hot take. What exactly are you basing this claim on? Nothing? Nice, good job. I'm sure half of the players think stats are supposed to be... hm... well... You tell me, what do those players think?

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But also, it only is part of the issue. Like, what's better? Increasing ferocity or increasing power? Does power affect ferocity? How do these things interact with your traits? How does weapon damage factor into this calculation? 

At the level we're supposedly talking about here (which is not crafting an extremely optimized build), it boils down to basic understnading what "%" means, which is about consistency of "rolling" the desired outcome. Are you ok with 50:50? Cool, you do you. Did you notice you're not criting as often as you want? Cool, add more. You don't need exact numbers or equasions to understand basic feedback and that's easly enough for people that actually care about those numbers at all.

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All of this is hard to figure out. Takes a huge amount of time and initiative by the player.

Yeah, the game doesn't provide you free builds. But the players do, so if you don't want to make your own and try things out, there are still shortcuts to take. Don't want that either? Great, you make your own choices.

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While the game doesn't even suggest there is something wrong with what one has right now. 

How can the game "suggest something is wrong", where on any sign of any dps check, some people scream in terror on the forum? The damage checks (or more accurately: failing them) are the suggestions about "something being wrong".

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Wintermute.5408]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

Is Chak Gerent also Raid level? Because it also has a timer...

It doesn't have that level of mechanic bloat. That's the ultimate breaking point, and key difference from previous metas, even before they were nerfed.

Your group is capable of, say, knocking the bomb into octovine? Congrats, now the only thing left to do is sinc your killing time, and if you succeed in that - you win.

You can do mushrooms in Nuhoch lane? You'll probably kill your gerent fine enough, unless you're criminally undermanned. You don't need to even concern yourself with other lanes. 1 mechanic.

Even Mordremoth, for all the fancy stuff, didn't demand much more than organized island hopping and good CC control.

Any of the HoT metas are MAYBE, just maybe, comparable to a single mini-boss phase of DE. Yet there's so much more to that fight. There's so much less people. And there's so, SO much more prep time spent to even get there.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

EOD strikes are pretty much defined by not having an enrage timer. You can lose half your squad as corpses/potatoes, and still look at clearing the strike. The meta is much closer to raids in that regard. 

Yeah and in the meta you can lose half of your squad and then they can still instantly respawn to come back and keep fighting. This has nothing to do with raids or strikes. It's not "you die, you're out".

[Erise.5614]

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Stop being intentionally and blatantly dishonest, please. Like... after this instant "180" change, it can't be any more obvious. And you're just casually carrying on as if nothing changed about what you've said here, lol.

It's not an 180 change. It's about whether people do it or not.

You just want to blame others for not being experts at this game. Which is not constructive in any way.

Like, sure. It is theoretically possible to learn everything. But we know the results. This does not happen. Most people learn from third party resources and the entire group of people who actually understand the combat system is a minority. 

So. Blame them and what now? Tell them to get out of the event? Gatekeep like raids? As we all know that's what makes an MMO healthy!^^

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What do you mean with this response? I know it's about "combat system attributes", that's all we're talkinga bout here. What else was it supposed to be about?

Character attributes aren't the entire combat system or the formula. Stop shifting the goalposts to whatever suits you.

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Only if you don't bother reading the skill descriptions in the first place.

Please, feel free to show me where it talks about attribute impact.

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Wow, that's another great hot take. What exactly are you basing this claim on? Nothing? Nice, good job. I'm sure half of the players think stats are supposed to be... hm... well... You tell me, what do those players think?

Skill descriptions. My bad. And I say that because I do a lot of mentoring in the game and notice a huge lack of awareness around these topics. 

 

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

At the level we're supposedly talking about here (which is not crafting an extremely optimized build), it boils down to basic understnading what "%" means, which is about consistency of "rolling" the desired outcome. Are you ok with 50:50? Cool, you do you. Did you notice you're not criting as often as you want? Cool, add more. You don't need exact numbers or equasions to understand basic feedback and that's easly enough for people that actually care about those numbers at all.

I'm talking about ferocity. Not precision. 

 

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah, the game doesn't provide you free builds. But the players do, so if you don't want to make your own and try things out, there are still shortcuts to take. Don't want that either? Great, you make your own choices.

What players? What shortcuts? 

 

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How can the game "suggest something is wrong", where on any sign of any dps check, some people scream in terror on the forum? The damage checks are the suggestions about "something being wrong".

Once again. It's an obfuscated way of sharing that information. Obfuscated by the amount of people playing the event and by the fact that the average player can not reasonably know their own DPS. This makes comparing your own choices harder and slows down any form of learning that can happen.

Again, with the predictable and obvious result we've been seeing the past 10 years. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Wintermute.5408]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah and in the meta you can lose half of your squad and then they can still instantly respawn to come back and keep fighting. This has nothing to do with raids or strikes. It's not "you die, you're out".

No, it has everything to do with organizing 50 people in assortment of green gear instead. Those people might as well not be "in" to begin with. That's assuming they even try, and not just leech there.

Again, it's combination of mechanical bloat AND tight DPS check that becomes a problem. That is descriptive of raids, especially their PoF iteration. Strikes don't have DPS checks. Old metas never had mechanical bloat. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Wintermute.5408

[The Boz.2038]

10 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

It doesn't have that level of mechanic bloat. That's the ultimate breaking point, and key difference from previous metas, even before they were nerfed.

I don't know about that... multiple phases, DPS checks, insta-kill mechanics, knockbacks, CC phases, meta strategies... Sounds an awful lot like a raid encounter to me.
/s 

Also, but what if, as Erise said six times now, you try your hardest, and chuck bombs hard, and kill mushrooms hard, but then a different lane fails? Your own performance only accounts for single digit percentages, after all!
/s

etc.

[vandrefalk.6823]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

I'm saying these kinds of comments are absolute strawman. Please watch my video of a failed run and point out where exactly these mistakes come up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFRto8jhnlQ

OK - not sure about your strawman accusations, but here goes... I've reviewed your run.

Already at the 5-split pre-event with charging of prismatic crystals I noticed the lack of distinct splits of squad. Commander should've put down 5 markers on each place and sent 2 subs each spot. At this point, I'm starting to feel suspicious there will be good enough coordination - or was this communicated even earlier? In which case - did it get repeated, because with all the separate pre-events and events of this meta, people need info repeated - they don't have time to check squad message either.

As for the fight versus Soo-Won:

26:45 The timer for the wisps to return in first crystal phase runs out, meaning 10 people couldn't get back up to the platform. Otherwise the timer ends a bit earlier. Playing pacman with the "wandering memories" to refresh your endurance bar every 4-5 jumps can't be much to ask... => WISP MECHANIC

Around 29-30 minutes, tail comes up and comm orders to stay on head and Soo-Won switches sides too... unlucky rng but a lot of squad running back and forth and losing valuable dps time. The tail doesn't get killed, so you get bubbles on players, etc. and more mechanics dropping the damage.

31:08 Champion phase - look at how your CC bar is broken and it gains Exposed condition and suddenly you eat away its health... meanwhile, 2nd group have not yet CC'ed their champion and you end up having to break to wait for the other champion. => CC MECHANIC

32:35 Tsunami attack, a dozen people fail to move out and dodge/jump the shockwave. => ATTACK MECHANIC

32:54 Finally a CC bar on Soo-Won! But it takes nearly 15 seconds to break it.

33:20 Second time with TAIL, and this one is tricky to call! Majority of squad stays on head RIGHTLY so even though commander calls for TAIL. The reason is you just had the CC bar break and Soo-Won has EXPOSED condi... if all had stayed to continue DPS on head, you would've reached split phase 40% here. Instead, squad takes about 10-25 seconds to consider/turn around, run to tail, kill it, switch sides again and then reach split phase about a minute later.

=> In my opinion, this one is difficult to blame... in my opinion, you personally did correct to stay and DPS the head. Anet just changed the Exposed mechanic, but I believe the whole squad should have gone full DPS on her head here and reach split phase 1 min earlier.

34:30 2nd phase with green circles- failed to cover all. And the wisps again fail to return to the platform, meaning Soo-Won does her tidal wave attack on the platform and 10 people in the squad get one-shot... that's a huge dps loss for another 10 seconds waiting for them to get back. Even 20 seconds later the Comm is asking for people to WP! => WISP MECHANIC, WP WHEN DEAD

36:19 Finally another CC bar on Soo-Won! ONLY, you failed it this time... notice as 36:30 it just goes gray, no EXPOSED debuff on her and she switches side... you've just lost a lot of time BIG damage. She had 35% health here and with full burn phase you could've reached 20% and final champions phase. => CC MECHANIC

38:15 Things are already sketchy now, but there's another CC phase and the squad fails to break it, so again you don't get the big DPS burn phase. => CC MECHANIC

I'm stopping here, you only have about 5 minutes left when her health is 20% and you've got another round of champions and then final stretch. It's not going to happen now, you need to reach the final champion phase with at least 7 minutes on the timer.

---

Btw - noticed in your video your camera seems to shake... I'm assuming you already know, but just in case you find it annoying, there's an option to "Disable shake of player camera" under Options. 🙂

[vandrefalk.6823]

I will add one thing to that wall of text....

Since the patch, it looks like the CC bar will come up on Soo-Won WHEN her TAIL comes up too... this is badly designed by Anet and they should really look into that. Let the CC bar only spawn on HEAD while TAIL is not up.

AND I think that the wisps mechanic should be modified slightly... let the timer run out if say, 80% people return. So 8 of 10 in first phase and 24 in the second phase.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Dondarrion.2748

[The Boz.2038]

4 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I'm talking about ferocity. Not precision. 

No attribute set offers ferocity at the expense or instead of power. Your query was erroneous, and when tried to read charitably, you snap back, insisting on being wrong.
 

[Wintermute.5408]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I don't know about that... multiple phases, DPS checks, insta-kill mechanics, knockbacks, CC phases, meta strategies... Sounds an awful lot like a raid encounter to me.

Just put that fight in an instance, limit it to 10 people, and adjust numbers. It can easily be raid with just those changes. No other meta can.

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Also, but what if, as Erise said six times now, you try your hardest, and chuck bombs hard, and kill mushrooms hard, but then a different lane fails? Your own performance only accounts for single digit percentages, after all!

That is a fair point actually, and my personal pet peeve with 10+man content in general. Putting that aside, we get to the question of time spent and rewards gained.

Raid fights are short, and immediately repeatable. If I spent an hour in a raid encounter, that's at the absolute least 4-5 attempts and chances for people to wake up and git gut. And even upon complete failure I'll at least walk out with magnetite shards and some personal experience.

In any HoT map you do get your fair amount of chests one way or the other. Tarir still opens up on fail, with lesser amount of chests. TD and DS have most of their meat in lane chests anyway. Sure, failure is bad, but it's not a complete waste.

In DE the time spent on failed run amounts for absolute kitten-all. Even upon success the rewards are questionable at best. Hell, make the end reward upon victory something in the 100g range. I'll be the first to shut up and go farm it, even with all the prep time and high chance at failure.

[vandrefalk.6823]

Even one more addition... I play with Hardstuck and ran a tightly coordinated event yesterday.. we made our mistakes too, however, our failed attempt with 1-2% left or something like that was due to the RNG of Soo-Won's attacks...

She switched sides so many times early on, squad had to run back and forth over and over, and we also had some CC issues on champions and uneven burn phases there. But most of all, if Anet should tune something, it's how Soo-Won attacks, and rather have more frequent attacks with tsunami/slam (the aoe's near squad) and tail slam (across half the platform) and less switching sides... I enjoy the fight and the mechanics, but not when you are pressed for time and just unlucky with getting side switching over and over.

[Sobx.1758]

34 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's not an 180 change. It's about whether people do it or not.

Oh, it is. You've claimed I intentionally misrepresent things, I've told you what I was talking about and now you've jumped on the train claiming he was correct LOL. That is very much a "180" change in 2 posts written one-after another.

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You just want to blame others for not being experts at this game.

When? Where? How?

That's just a lie.

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Like, sure. It is theoretically possible to learn everything.

Cool, so stop pretending otherwise, just because some people are not willing to learn/read the pop-ups and descriptions that are available ingame.

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Character attributes aren't that's to the combat system or the formula. Stop shifting the goalposts to whatever suits you. 

Character attributes are explained in the game. If something says "increases damage", then what else is this supposed to increase if not the damage? How do you go from reading (not a direct quote) "Power -increases attack" to "I don't know if attributes change the damage I deal"? 🤨

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Please, feel free to show me where it talks about attribute impact.

Just like I've already said multiple times, it tells you what the attributes do in the pop-ups as well as in the hero panel. Like... what are you even trying to do right now? 😄

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What players? What shortcuts? 

What "what players"? You're not aware of the builds people are sharing? I know you are, so what exactly is this question supposed to be? And what's so confusing about "shortcuts" here? You don't consider players theorycrafting and sharing their builds with others to be a "shortcut' for players not willing -or not being able- to make their own semi-coherent build?

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Once again. It's an obfuscated way of sharing that information. Obfuscated by the amount of people playing the event and by the fact that the average player can not reasonably know their own DPS. This makes comparing your own choices harder and slows down any form of learning that can happen.

Again, with the predictable and obvious result we've been seeing the past 10 years. 

No, it's not. Remember when you've -falsely- tried to claim I "don't remember how I perhaps once was"? So here's a small reminder, since apparently you forgot how it was to be new: learning experience doesn't start on the massive meta events, not even close. And even on lvl 80 expansion maps, there's also plenty of opportunities to deal damage to mobs solo. Pretty sure it's consistently eaier to do than it is to find yourself in massive meta groups, unless you specifically go out of your way to keep map-jumping with those groups.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

OK - not sure about your strawman accusations, but here goes... I've reviewed your run.

Already at the 5-split pre-event with charging of prismatic crystals I noticed the lack of distinct splits of squad. Commander should've put down 5 markers on each place and sent 2 subs each spot. At this point, I'm starting to feel suspicious there will be good enough coordination - or was this communicated even earlier? In which case - did it get repeated, because with all the separate pre-events and events of this meta, people need info repeated - they don't have time to check squad message either.

As for the fight versus Soo-Won:

26:45 The timer for the wisps to return in first crystal phase runs out, meaning 10 people couldn't get back up to the platform. Otherwise the timer ends a bit earlier. Playing pacman with the "wandering memories" to refresh your endurance bar every 4-5 jumps can't be much to ask... => WISP MECHANIC

Around 29-30 minutes, tail comes up and comm orders to stay on head and Soo-Won switches sides too... unlucky rng but a lot of squad running back and forth and losing valuable dps time. The tail doesn't get killed, so you get bubbles on players, etc. and more mechanics dropping the damage.

31:08 Champion phase - look at how your CC bar is broken and it gains Exposed condition and suddenly you eat away its health... meanwhile, 2nd group have not yet CC'ed their champion and you end up having to break to wait for the other champion. => CC MECHANIC

32:35 Tsunami attack, a dozen people fail to move out and dodge/jump the shockwave. => ATTACK MECHANIC

32:54 Finally a CC bar on Soo-Won! But it takes nearly 15 seconds to break it.

33:20 Second time with TAIL, and this one is tricky to call! Majority of squad stays on head RIGHTLY so even though commander calls for TAIL. The reason is you just had the CC bar break and Soo-Won has EXPOSED condi... if all had stayed to continue DPS on head, you would've reached split phase 40% here. Instead, squad takes about 10-25 seconds to consider/turn around, run to tail, kill it, switch sides again and then reach split phase about a minute later.

=> In my opinion, this one is difficult to blame... in my opinion, you personally did correct to stay and DPS the head. Anet just changed the Exposed mechanic, but I believe the whole squad should have gone full DPS on her head here and reach split phase 1 min earlier.

34:30 2nd phase with green circles- failed to cover all. And the wisps again fail to return to the platform, meaning Soo-Won does her tidal wave attack on the platform and 10 people in the squad get one-shot... that's a huge dps loss for another 10 seconds waiting for them to get back. Even 20 seconds later the Comm is asking for people to WP! => WISP MECHANIC, WP WHEN DEAD

36:19 Finally another CC bar on Soo-Won! ONLY, you failed it this time... notice as 36:30 it just goes gray, no EXPOSED debuff on her and she switches side... you've just lost a lot of time BIG damage. She had 35% health here and with full burn phase you could've reached 20% and final champions phase. => CC MECHANIC

38:15 Things are already sketchy now, but there's another CC phase and the squad fails to break it, so again you don't get the big DPS burn phase. => CC MECHANIC

I'm stopping here, you only have about 5 minutes left when her health is 20% and you've got another round of champions and then final stretch. It's not going to happen now, you need to reach the final champion phase with at least 7 minutes on the timer.

---

Btw - noticed in your video your camera seems to shake... I'm assuming you already know, but just in case you find it annoying, there's an option to "Disable shake of player camera" under Options. 🙂

But how much time was actually lost here? Is that really enough to account for 8+ minutes?

(I've cleared it too before with 5+ minutes left on the clock. Vs pug runs that consistently needed ~3 - 4 minutes more). 

 

My main point is that especially this run is perfectly acceptable in terms of open world coordination. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But not abysmal either. None of the common strawman apply. People aren't AFK, no one remains dead, people actively rotate. Not instantly but they do react. 

These kinds of saving individual seconds here and there should not be a thing for an enjoyable open world experience. Besides using voice chat you can't expect better coordination.

Like, all the things you counted account for around a minute of time loss. That is about as much time lost as a tail and 3 bites. Something you will regularly encounter at lower DPS. As in, 1 - 2 extra tails plus 3 - 5 extra bites. Extra on top of what a high dps squad would see. This difference by itself costs more time than everything you counted up here. 

This is the difference in experience people with high dps groups have. They just melt through all the mechanics where it feels pleasant. While in a low dps squad you have almost no chance. But you also have no control over the average DPS in your squad. 

[The Boz.2038]

5 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Just put that fight in an instance, limit it to 10 people, and adjust numbers. It can easily be raid with just those changes. No other meta can.

...I was describing Chak Gerent. 😉

[vandrefalk.6823]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

But how much time was actually lost here? Is that really enough to account for 8+ minutes?

This is the difference in experience people with high dps groups have. They just melt through all the mechanics where it feels pleasant. While in a low dps squad you have almost no chance. But you also have no control over the average DPS in your squad. 

But, as I pointed out... there are so many failed mechanics here... both wisps phases timer runs out because people can't jump up... you have 75 seconds to get back up; you did in 40 seconds which is good. You have to wait another 35 seconds now, both phases.

Failure to stay on head when she had the EXPOSED debuff when you were so close to phasing her at 40%... it cost you over 1 minute.

Failure on the CC bar 2 times in cost of DPS... HUGE time loss because instead you have to deal with more mechanics, and this is really costly. Same goes for dead people not waypointing, bubbled people (due to not killing tail) - losing 10-15 people's damage; in a high dps squad you can live through that, in a pug squad, you're losing a lot of damage over 30 seconds to missing players dealing damage.

[vandrefalk.6823]

Just now, Dondarrion.2748 said:

But, as I pointed out... there are so many failed mechanics here... both wisps phases timer runs out because people can't jump up... you have 75 seconds to get back up; you did in 40 seconds which is good. You have to wait another 35 seconds now, both phases.

And this is not just limited to your run... this happens regularly, so everybody seems to lose half a minute each time here. And then you lose the DPS of all those who don't hide and get killed.

[The Boz.2038]

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

While in a low dps squad you have almost no chance. But you also have no control over the average DPS in your squad. 

So...

DPS is the issue you identify, and it should somehow be improved on the group level in order to increase the chances of a successful meta...

But people shouldn't be suggested to try and improve their builds to up theirDPS because that's toxic...

And people shouldn't be expected to show up an hour before to get the best DPS boosts from the event, because that's too much...

And people shouldn't try to organize elsewhere and control who they bring into their squad, because that's toxic...

And people shouldn't have to separate into subgroups and wrangle up boons to increase their DPS because that's raidlike and, thus, toxic...

Please explain to me how the totality of the complaint doesn't boil down to "I want to approach this just like Tequatl; join (or not even join) a PUG squad, do some mad deeps, and pick up my reward twelve minutes later". 

 

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

But, as I pointed out... there are so many failed mechanics here... both wisps phases timer runs out because people can't jump up... you have 75 seconds to get back up; you did in 40 seconds which is good. You have to wait another 35 seconds now, both phases.

Failure to stay on head when she had the EXPOSED debuff when you were so close to phasing her at 40%... it cost you over 1 minute.

Failure on the CC bar 2 times in cost of DPS... HUGE time loss because instead you have to deal with more mechanics, and this is really costly. Same goes for dead people not waypointing, bubbled people (due to not killing tail) - losing 10-15 people's damage; in a high dps squad you can live through that, in a pug squad, you're losing a lot of damage over 30 seconds to missing players dealing damage.

 

1 minute ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

And this is not just limited to your run... this happens regularly, so everybody seems to lose half a minute each time here. And then you lose the DPS of all those who don't hide and get killed.

But is that reasonable? These are not things you have been taught in the metas or story or open world content leading up to it.

I mean. Again. Until the run was basically guaranteed to fail I don't see people remaining dead. Can we please avoid that strawman?

Most if not all mechanics are succeeded. Just not fast enough. Just like there's not enough DPS to properly utilize the burn phases that do exist.

Is all of that really reasonable for an open world meta? As far as increase in expectation goes?

If greens still cost you a minute why does the phase remain as is? It's not even useful or interesting in any way. It's a story gimmick easily griefed. Even if a few people can not succeed.

There is so much going on. So much mechanical bloat. That doesn't need to just be done. It needs to be done really well or skipped with high DPS. 

This is terrible design for an open world meta. With lots of opportunities for improving the experience. But as it stands it's just a design failure. Both in terms of combat clarity (hit boxes vs hit markers are abysmal) and in terms of combat flow (tail & bite RNG that increases chances for bad outcomes the more opportunities Soo Won has for attacking). 

It's not a reasonable challenge that supports ad-hoc cooperation and regular open world gameplay. 

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

lol

(...)

lol

Yup, keep running from it now. You keep trying to pretend the game doesn't explain what attributes influence, but when pointed out that the game does actually informs the players about it... it's suddenly "me blaming the players" 🤷‍♂️

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I'm fairly sure that I'm more in touch with that part of the community.

By the way you've just tried pretending that players start learning the basics of the game like "attributes influencing skills" during massive meta events and that's what stands in the way of them understanding what is happening... Doubt. But you are free to hold that unsubstantiated opinion as long and hard as you want.

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Actively mentoring beginners regularly. It is hilarious how you get hung up on attacking me though^^

How exactly did I attack you?I'm not the one that keeps comming up with claims like "you're disconnected from the community" or "you just want to blame others for not being experts at this game." (and now that I've asked you about it, you've dropped it again) in place of actually responding to the contents of the posts I quote.

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What's your point? That everyone is well equipped and dealing massive damage? 

What? Where did I write anything like that? What are you responding to right now?

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I mean sure. There's opportunity to deal damage to mobs. But the game never suggests you have a weak build. You first need to understand what is usual and then need to understand what your DPS is and then need to figure out how to improve.

Yeah and that starts the moment you started leveling up right from level 1. As long as you're willing to read what the game tells you instead of trying to rush to the latest content.

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More people learn about metas and lfgs than learn about the combat system. 

....what? I mean, maybe the ones that are interested in skipping the learning experience and try to boost themselves to lvl 80 in order to jump into endgame content. Since, you know, they start learning about the combat system right from the level 2 (or probably even level 1), while the game won't try to teach them about lfg and metas for at least ""few"" more levels.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758