Erise.5614 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: So... DPS is the issue you identify, and it should somehow be improved on the group level in order to increase the chances of a successful meta... High DPS is the only remotely consistent solution to the fight as it exists right now. 19 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: But people shouldn't be suggested to try and improve their builds to up theirDPS because that's toxic... Most experienced players (and yes, very much you yourself) do not have the soft skills necessary to make that a pleasant experience as it is right now. You can't just go around and tell people they are bad and have to change right now. Because, yes. That comes across poorly. Proper mentoring tools do not exist either though which makes it hard to do anything constructive here. Besides the fact that you don't have time or opportunity to fix anything once you're on the map. 19 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: And people shouldn't be expected to show up an hour before to get the best DPS boosts from the event, because that's too much... Not if there's a 90%+ chance of failure. That is disrespectful to the time people invest into playing the game. 19 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: And people shouldn't try to organize elsewhere and control who they bring into their squad, because that's toxic... Not for open world content. Entirely different topic if we talk about raids or Dragonstorm or instances of any kind. 19 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: And people shouldn't have to separate into subgroups and wrangle up boons to increase their DPS because that's raidlike and, thus, toxic... I mean, it doesn't really make a difference. But no. It shouldn't be necessary to beat an open world meta. At least not an open world meta that is framed and portrayed like all the others. Especially not if it's portrayed even more prominently like DE. 19 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: Please explain to me how the totality of the complaint doesn't boil down to "I want to approach this just like Tequatl; join (or not even join) a PUG squad, do some mad deeps, and pick up my reward twelve minutes later". The meta needs fixing, was framed incorrectly for its difficulty and requires too many things to go unusually well. I have given lots of suggestions about how different aspects can be tweaked without taking 12 minutes or succeeding 100% of the time. Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614 3 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNotMatthew.1058 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 2 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said: EOD strikes are pretty much defined by not having an enrage timer. You can lose half your squad as corpses/potatoes, and still look at clearing the strike. The meta is much closer to raids in that regard. You can respawn in the meta, so those who keep dying can just come back. In Strikes they can't, someone dies they are out for that pull. In the meta you die you just respawn for free and you are back in the fight 10 seconds later. 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: Ok. So not to overextend your attention span here. 34 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: It is hilarious how you get hung up on attacking me though^^ Right. Quote Is the current learning experience fine? Ah, so now that you understand you were wrong about pretending the game doesn't explain/show/provide feedback on the things it does, you're reverting into broader and more subjective "is it fine?" questions? 😄 It can be better, yes. But not because of the things you've wrongfully claimed in this comment chain. Quote Does the average level 80 player have a good grasp on the system? How does it change or address anything that was written in the posts in this comment chain? Quote Is their damage output fine? If yes, what number is considered fine and how widely spread do you believe it is? If no, why? How does it change or address anything that was written in the posts in this comment chain? We were mostly discussing what the game teaches. After your claims that it doesnt teach/show certain things and me repeatedly explaining to you that it indeed does teach/show those things, you're reverting into... "ok, but are the players good?!". And the answer here is: some are and some are not, exactly as expected. It doesn't change anything about the fact that the game explains the influence certain decisions about the character builds have on the overal damage output and it doesn't change anything about the fact that nobody will learn for those players if they are not willing to. Edited March 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758 1 1 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erise.5614 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: Ah, so now that you understand you were wrong about pretending the game doesn't explain/show/provide feedback on the things it does, you're reverting into broader and more subjective "is it fine?" questions? 😄 It can be better, yes. But not because of the things you've wrongfully claimed in this comment chain. How does it change or address anything that was written in the posts in this comment chain? How does it change or address anything that was written in the posts in this comment chain? It appears this conversation jumps extremely between completely unrelated topics. So I want to reset it with a few simple questions that are at the core of all my points. Is the current learning experience fine? Does the average level 80 player have a good grasp on the system? Is their damage output fine? If yes, what number is considered fine and how widely spread do you believe it is? If no, why? So to avoid misunderstandings and jumping around everywhere, as is my experience with basically all your replies, I'm interested in the answers to these simple questions. To get a handle on whether my assumptions about the conversation are correct or if you come from a completely different perspective that was not understandable to me from just the context of your comments. And actually. If you don't mind. I'll add one more. When was the last time you mentored a beginner and guided them through all the necessary knowledge? Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614 3 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 12 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: Not if there's a 90%+ chance of failure. If you do moderate optimization of your approach, such as *showing up an hour before the start*, your chances of success skyrocket. I have attempted the event an exact dozen times now. My four fails were in the first four days, at crystals (lol), 27%, 13%, and 1% (that one still hurts) on the first friday. Then friday night, I went done join an attempt with my guild, and we did it. After that, I have joined a guild run four times, an "organized" map twice, and a PUG map (in which we had trouble even finding a commander to rally around, and had to do with mentor tags for the entire pre phase) once; all success. And all were "show up an hour before bridge starts", so, yeah, I'd say you're not "wasting" time so much as "investing time to improve odds of victory". The event has also been made much easier, and Soo's behavior is much more consistent than it was two weeks ago. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) No, don't ""reset"" it, go back to the previous responses and stop avoiding whatever you start understanding you're wrong about. 5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: So to avoid misunderstandings and jumping around everywhere, as is my experience with basically all your replies, Buddy, you're the one that ""resets"" the conversation. I'm not the one jumping around everywhere, I'm literally responding to what you wrote and now you're running from it. Quote I'm interested in the answers to these simple questions. And I'm, in turn, interested in your responses to what I wrote above and you've now avoided to change the subject of the whole comment chain into something completely different. 🙄 Edited March 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandrefalk.6823 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 16 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: I mean. Again. Until the run was basically guaranteed to fail I don't see people remaining dead. Can we please avoid that strawman? But 10-12 people were full dead after the tidal wave on 2nd crystal phase... event was far from failed at this point. 20 seconds elapsed before the final 3-4 players even waypointed to res, most of them reacting only after 10-15 seconds. Adding the time to run back, I'd take a chance 10 people were away about 20 seconds each. And when you know you have a tight 20 minute fight, what were they doing dead on the floor for 20 seconds?? Getting a sip of their coffee? Standing up to stretch? 😄 Also - while not fully dead - having a dozen people downed from Soo-Won's tsunami attack, where you essentially step/run/dodge out of the AoE, then do a normal jump over the wave... well, the time spent ressing them all is lost DPS, the time spent with them all on the ground, lost DPS. 21 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: But is that reasonable? These are not things you have been taught in the metas or story or open world content leading up to it. There were a lot of failed mechanics in this run - as I pointed out in my review earlier - and I beg to differ in opinion on this comment. YES- you might not have been taught by Anet. BUT, nearly all metas since HoT have had elements where the same elements are present and most notably, I'm putting it down to one important mechanic; CC the defiance bar / "break bar". You have so many people shouting for people to "CC" - and since IBS spamming the special action tool even - and it's still not happening... for DE even you are taught how to break the bar in an early heart in Seitung, but it still doesn't happen. Your squad lost 2 CC phases where you could burn about 10-15% health if you had done it quickly enough and got the Exposed debuff on Soo-Won. Where time was lost for failing mechanics, getting these burns at least is a huge time saver. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erise.5614 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Dondarrion.2748 said: But 10-12 people were full dead after the tidal wave on 2nd crystal phase... event was far from failed at this point. 20 seconds elapsed before the final 3-4 players even waypointed to res, most of them reacting only after 10-15 seconds. Adding the time to run back, I'd take a chance 10 people were away about 20 seconds each. And when you know you have a tight 20 minute fight, what were they doing dead on the floor for 20 seconds?? Getting a sip of their coffee? Standing up to stretch? 😄 Also - while not fully dead - having a dozen people downed from Soo-Won's tsunami attack, where you essentially step/run/dodge out of the AoE, then do a normal jump over the wave... well, the time spent ressing them all is lost DPS, the time spent with them all on the ground, lost DPS. There were a lot of failed mechanics in this run - as I pointed out in my review earlier - and I beg to differ in opinion on this comment. YES- you might not have been taught by Anet. BUT, nearly all metas since HoT have had elements where the same elements are present and most notably, I'm putting it down to one important mechanic; CC the defiance bar / "break bar". You have so many people shouting for people to "CC" - and since IBS spamming the special action tool even - and it's still not happening... for DE even you are taught how to break the bar in an early heart in Seitung, but it still doesn't happen. Your squad lost 2 CC phases where you could burn about 10-15% health if you had done it quickly enough and got the Exposed debuff on Soo-Won. Where time was lost for failing mechanics, getting these burns at least is a huge time saver. One final serious question. How long do you believe it'll take until PUGs during peak hours manage even just a 50% clear rate? Assuming the full hour of preparation. Edit: And side note. Dead bodies remain until the loading screen finished. 20 seconds probably means they took a few second to click on waypoint and then had to load for an extended amount of time because their hardware is a bit closer to ANets minimum requirements than ours. Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614 3 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 10 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: And side note. Dead bodies remain until the loading screen finished. Nope. Body instantly spawns standing upright at waypoint, instead. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erise.5614 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: And I'm, in turn, interested in your responses to what I wrote above and you've now avoided to change the subject of the whole comment chain into something completely different. 🙄 I mean, this summarizes things quite nicely. 25 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: And the answer here is: some are and some are not, exactly as expected. It doesn't change anything about the fact that the game explains the influence certain decisions about the character builds have on the overal damage output and it doesn't change anything about the fact that nobody will learn for those players if they are not willing to. I agree with the first part. But the second part is blaming players for enjoying things the way they like. Games have lots of tools to make a learning experience a pleasant one. It's basically all a game is. A learning experience. Going into something new, having a great time improving and overcoming it. And being in a better mood afterwards. In short, being entertained. As one would expect of an entertainment product. Blaming players for enjoying the game wrong is not constructive. No one is unwilling to learn when they start up a game. Learning about this new experience is the entire point. But a game can make it easy and pleasant to learn and improve. Or it can make it difficult. Depending on how information is portrayed, depending on the pacing, depending on the user experience design. Even if a game makes it difficult to learn. Some will revel in the challenge and overcoming it after lots and lots of attempts. Some will find alternative enjoyment. Few people are playing vanilla Minecraft nowadays. Which is fine. And every method they enjoy is fine. Every aspect they enjoy is fine. What I'm saying is that Guild Wars has made the learning experience unpleasant enough that a lot of people disengage along the way. Communities do a poor job at picking up the slack. And the hardcore part of the community mostly reacted with gatekeeping and blaming. Making the experience even worse. Actively pushing these players away. One can not expect these players suddenly changing on their own. The community is not going to suddenly step up and fix all of this. Meaning it is on ANet to improve the learning experience and make it more pleasant and more convenient to learn everything necessary. Not easier to get loot or faster to get rewards. But a more entertaining progress path towards the expected skill level. If you would be so kind as to answer my questions now? Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: I mean, this summarizes things quite nicely. I know it does, that's why I wrote it. Quote I agree with the first part. But the second part is blaming players for enjoying things the way they like. The second part isn't blaming anyone, since you've asked about efficiency. I never said everyone needs to learn. But then the players intentionally not willing to learn will understandably not be able to do everything the game offers. Stop pretending I'm doing something I clearly never did. I specifically keep saying in my posts that the players are free to make that choice if they want to. 12 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: Blaming players for enjoying the game wrong is not constructive Where did I do that? 12 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: If you would be so kind as to answer my questions now? I will be, right after you'll be so kind to go back to mine from the previous posts that you've dodged while conveniently running away from them """resetting the discussion""" 🙂 Edited March 31, 2022 by Sobx.1758 1 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: Blaming players for enjoying the game wrong is not constructive. And ain't nobody doing so. Will you please stop using strawman arguments and accusing those that disagree of being somehow toxic? Please? 3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: What I'm saying is that Guild Wars has made the learning experience unpleasant enough that a lot of people disengage along the way. They don't "disengage", they find comfort, and aren't challenged out of it. 3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: Communities do a poor job at picking up the slack. Why bother, if they're going to be met with accusations of elitism and toxicity? ...the way you exactly did in the previous thread about raids? People volunteer their own free time to try and expand the raid community, and then you accuse them of being toxic for daring to ask for freely available, standard, cheap builds, or any minimal amount of effort or understanding of game concepts outside of the raid that the training is for. Damned if you do... 3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: And the hardcore part of the community mostly reacted with gatekeeping and blaming. Making the experience even worse. Actively pushing these players away. ...and here we go. Like clockwork. Any attempt at advising is blaming. Because when someone tells you "hey, you can improve this", they are *blaming* you for the fail (oh no!). And after all, your personal impact is only in the single digit percentages, it's not fair to be blamed! 3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: One can not expect these players suddenly changing on their own. The community is not going to suddenly step up and fix all of this. Meaning it is on ANet to improve the learning experience and make it more pleasant and more convenient to learn everything necessary. But remember! Dungeons are too steep! Strikes too! What a joke. 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erise.5614 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: They don't "disengage", they find comfort, and aren't challenged out of it. I mean. Same thing. They find more enjoyment in alternative content. Adding or increasing challenge does nothing. Neither does adding rewards. It builds frustration. Nothing else. Which is why Dark Souls managed to enter the mainstream. And raids are not. Despite lots of areas in Dark Souls being significantly higher in difficulty. As in, available reaction time and how forgiving it is. Requiring more optimal play than in any raid. It's really not about whether or not a challenge exists. Its about the challenge being enjoyable. 28 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: Why bother, if they're going to be met with accusations of elitism and toxicity? I mean. That developed over time. But that is a fair point. "Expecting that much of the community is unreasonable" is a fair alternative way of putting my point. The real answer, though, is. To help the areas of the game you love succeed. To sharpen up your own social skills and help turn the challenging content into the success that warrants long term support. You can help in non toxic ways. You can help in ways that genuinely reduce toxicity overall. It's a lot of work, it's hard and very much a skill in its own right. But it is very much possible. 28 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: ...and here we go. Like clockwork. Any attempt at advising is blaming. Because when someone tells you "hey, you can improve this", they are *blaming* you for the fail (oh no!). I mean. How many people talk about people dying and never reviving in this very thread alone? The toxicity here really goes both ways. As is expected of toxicity. It's negativity that spreads and does harm far beyond the origin. Like toxic substances. 28 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: But remember! Dungeons are too steep! Strikes too! What a joke. If you consider these statements within the context I said them in. Yes. That is accurate. The results really speak for themselves. Like, I get that you argue against me. And for keeping the meta as it is and adding more challenge into everyones way. But to what end? In isolation (aka instanced) the kind of content you like doesn't have a healthy amount of participation. So is the hope really that people can be forced to change through a meta? Essentially tricking them into content they aren't ready for? Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614 4 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: Adding or increasing challenge does nothing. Neither does adding rewards. It builds frustration. Nothing else. Unsubstantiated claim, rejected with the same evidence it was presented. 1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said: I mean. How many people talk about people dying and never reviving in this very thread alone? You SPECIFICALLY asked us to tell you what was wrong in your run. When told, "oh no, you're BLAMING people! The TOXICITY!" What a laughable, disingenuous approach. 3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: The way I put it, yes. That is accurate. The results really speak for themselves. This still makes me chuckle. 1 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erise.5614 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: Unsubstantiated claim, rejected with the same evidence it was presented. Promise of rewards decrease creativity Rewarding people as a group decreases productivity Reward backed accountability within a group leads to bullying Positive reinforcement increases performance more than negative reinforcement Positive reinforcement is most effective at creating new behavior. Negative reinforcement is best to remove existing undesirable behavior. Like, these are UX 101 lessons. If you want people to do something different. Give them rewards equal to the challenge they, individually overcame. Don't punish others because of an individuals performance. Punish them if you want them to stop doing something entirely. Now, some of these things can work in very specific situations. Any rule can and should be broken when appropriate. But it needs good reasons and good design around it to compensate for negative consequences. 15 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: You SPECIFICALLY asked us to tell you what was wrong in your run. When told, "oh no, you're BLAMING people! The TOXICITY!" What a laughable, disingenuous approach. Funnily enough. Someone did give me feedback which I didn't refute nor called blaming. I disagree with their assessment of the situation but at least they were a good sport about it. Several people in this thread are not capable of that. 15 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: This still makes me chuckle. Great example. Edited March 31, 2022 by Erise.5614 6 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said: Promise of rewards decrease creativity Rewarding people as a group decreases productivity Reward backed accountability within a group leads to bullying Positive reinforcement increases performance more than negative reinforcement Positive reinforcement is most effective at creating new behavior. Negative reinforcement is best to remove existing undesirable behavior. These don't seem to fit your original claims, given context. Except the last one. But I guess "you failed" is bad negative reinforcement for not doing things right, eh? And fifteen gold is not positive enough? But points for trying, I guess! 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erise.5614 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: These don't seem to fit your original claims, given context. Except the last one. But I guess "you failed" is bad negative reinforcement for not doing things right, eh? And fifteen gold is not positive enough? But points for trying, I guess! Would you like to elaborate on how exactly you misunderstand these points? You are just saying everything is wrong while vaguely relating to "context" before being condescending. 5 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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