More unique Elite Specs through Core Synergies

[Asum.4960]

(this will mostly be from a PvE Point of View)

 

In my opinion a big problem that's stemming mainly from the Trait system, and not just with Necromancer, is that Elite Specs can feel very samey or lacking in identity. This will become more and more apparent the more Elite Specs which are overlapping in roles are added to the game. With Anet committing to supporting GW2 for the foreseeable future and Expansion 4 confirmed, I think it's time to talk about this issue. 

 

I'm posting this in the Necromancer Forum's because I'm most familiar with the Profession and will be using it as example. 

 

Currently every Necromancer build, depending on Role, will pick the exact same Trait lines, as well as largely the same Traits within those, largely the same Utility skills, Weapons and execute the same gameplay loops - with merely some twists on the Profession mechanic. 

This put's unreasonable pressure on the Elite Spec Trait Line, Profession mechanic, Weapon and Utility skills to make each Elite Spec feel unique and interesting.

 

Every Power Damage build will want to run Spite + Soul Reaping, use Axe as only viable Core Weapon, and revolve around using Well of Darkness and Suffering before entering Shroud for increased modifiers from Traits like Death Perception to deliver it's damage, while weaving in and out of Shroud for Soul Barbs. (using the same Stat set in Berserkers, the same Runes in Scholars, the same Sigil's in Force and Impact, etc.).

 

Every Condition Damage build will want to run Curses + Soul Reaping, use traited Scepter as only viable Core Weapon, and revolve around using Blood is Power (with Master of Corruption) before entering Shroud to transfer self-inflicted Conditions via Plague Sending, and then deliver it's damage through Traits like Barbed Precision, Dhuumfire and Lingering Curses, while weaving in and out of Shroud for Soul Barbs. (using the same Stat set in Viper's, the same Runes with Nightmare, the same Sigil's in Bursting and Torment, etc.).

*setups as of posting

 

This lack of choice and variety may not have been as apparent when there only was Power Reaper and Condition Scourge, but it certainly is now with Condition Harbinger being a carbon copy of Condition Scourge build wise (and it would be the exact same for power Harbinger, were that a thing) - and it's only going to get worse with future specs following this exact same trend unless changes are made. 

 

I believe these specs can be made much more differentiated, unique and fresh by designing them in a way in which they synergise with different Core Trait lines, weapons and Utility skills, which also just generally need an overhaul in many ways.

 

Let's look at Power Builds first (and pretend Power Harbinger is a thing).

Power Reaper thematically and gameplay wise is centered around hard hitting, slow, cleaving hits, while being protected by a second Shroud Healthbar. Naturally this synergises with picking up big damage modifiers and maximising Crit Chance and Damage in Shroud via Spite and Soul Reaping. 

Harbinger on the other hand is more designed around more mobility, faster hits and increased sustain, while losing the damage absorbing and reducing Shroud and even gaining health reducing Blight.

So why is the optimal style of play for this, if it were viable, still just taking those very same modifiers etc. through Spite and Soul Reaping?

How could this be made distinct? 

What if Harbinger instead Synergised with Blood Magic, through some Blood Magic Reworks?

 

I've long felt that Blood Magic was missing a proper Vampiric Line, somewhat akin to what Anet did for Devastation (for some reason) with Battle Scars.

First of all I believe MH Dagger needs a rework/buff in general, but additionally I also think Quickening Thirst could be reworked into also granting a skill Transformation akin to Lingering Curses for Scepter or Glacial Heart for Hammer on Guardian, giving Necromancer another viable Power Weapon, esp. for Harbinger. 

Secondly, I don't think Blood Bank is in a good spot functioning mostly as a "win harder" Trait, which drastically loses effectiveness when it's actually needed.

I think a better spot for the Trait would be a proper Vampiric GM, greatly enhancing especially Life Steal Damage. 

 

To achieve this, power Harbinger obviously also needs some changes.

Currently the Harbinger Power line is 1) passive damage modifier + passive Critical damage increase. 2) passive Critical Damage increase through Vitality to Ferocity conversion and 3) passive damage increase through lacklustre slowly ticking power damage Aura in Shroud.

 

This is entirely passive, boring and non-transformative for the Spec, plagued by the same "got to catch all the modifiers" design flaw of Traits for PvE, playing into the same core Trait lines.

A lot of work could be done here to further synergise Power Harbinger with Blood Magic, like changing Cascading Corruption into a rapidly (1/2s) ticking life steal Aura instead (with much lower base damage ofc), as well as making Wicked Corruption add Life Steal to Dark Barrage, like Septic Corruption adds Posion, for example.

 

Not only would that give Blood Magic another thematic identity, it could also push it into viability for DPS Harbinger, synergising with a buffed Dagger MH, Warhorn (especially Locust Swarm, which desperately needs to be buffed as well) and Focus (with Soul Grasp being in the same boat) - all the while serving to make up for the defensive loss of Shroud as well as gaining Blight, via innately synergising with a more sustain focused Traitline.

 

Next up, Condition Builds.

Condition Scourge focuses a lot around Scepter, and with that Curses is a natural fit - this makes Scourge mostly about Torment and Bleeds. 

Rather than Harbinger doing the exact same thing, what if it instead leaned more into the already more prominent and thematic Poison aspect - and with that Death Magic?

 

Death Magic likewise has long lacked an identity (besides incredibly niche minions) and attractive Damage options. 

While Anet tried with Putrid Defense increasing Poison Damage (which makes me think this line to be the perfect fit for this), as well as Deadly Strength increasing Power, it's largely been missing the mark. 

Now I do think the whole Carapace and baked in Toughness needs some rework in general (as well as the whole 3 Traits dedicated to minions) and all Toughness tanking really should be replaced by the Fixate system akin to Soulless Horror, but again it actually makes for a nice innate compensation for Harbinger's loss of Shroud/Barrier and Blight health reduction.

The key Trait's to look at here for reworks and buffs imo are Putrid Defense, Deadly Strength and Unholy Sanctuary. 

Here, much like Rev's Devastation line for Blood Magic, Anet could take a page from Thieves Deadly Arts to make this a viable Condi line, focused around Poison. 

 

Some ideas for this could be a rework of Putrid Defense to be yet another Weapon Skill Transformation, either for Dagger Off-Hand, which also needs a boost (like all core off-hands), or what I'd also really like to see - a viable Staff for PvE. While like with Dagger MH I'm in favour of a general Staff rework, especially for the Auto Attack (and I'am aware Staff also already has a dedicated Trait in SR), I think it could be neat for Putrid Defense to change Staff AA into a Poison Wave attack via this Trait. 

Now I also always wanted an option in DM to turn Staff into a (short lived) minion summoning Weapon, replacing the Marks, but that's another subject.

Next up, Deadly Strength could see an addition of Condition Damage.

Finally, Unholy Sanctuary as a Trait has become more and more niche, and has aged terribly with Elite Specialisation Mechanics especially.

This Trait (although this could also be a rework/addition for Death Nova) could take over Putrid Defense's role as juiced up Poison Damage increase, akin to Potent Poison in Deadly Arts. 

 

Condi Harbinger already has the Poison Synergy with Vile Blast, Septic Corruption and Elixir of Promise, and already is in a good state DPS wise generally, so not much needs to change on that front. 

This could simply serve to distinguish it from Condition Scourge by replacing Curses or Soul Reaping with DM, possibly adding Staff as viable Condi DPS weapon choice, opening up new attractive Utility skills like Corrosive Poison Cloud, etc., offering some freshness in gameplay and more differentiated builds.

 

TL;DR:

What would all this achieve?

While it's not perfect (and just rough first ideas), it could facilitate the current (and with this approach future) Elite Specs feeling a lot more distinct by making different Builds and Elite Specialisations synergise with different combinations of core Trait lines and Weapons. 

 

Instead of all power builds utilizing Spite + Soul Reaping, Axe + Espec weapon, and all Condition Builds using Curses + Soul Reaping and Scepter + Espec weapon - there may now be room to see a viable Power Harbinger utilizing Blood Magic and Dagger, as well as Condi Harbinger using Death Magic and Staff, setting it further apart from the existing options. 

 

As I mentioned at the start though, this is imo a greater problem of GW2 and it's trait system and doesn't just affect Necromancer. 

I don't think the current situation of "Power Damage line with 3 clear cut choices", "Condition Damage line with 3 clear cut choices", "universal line that every build runs with 3 clear cut choices", "defensive/PvP line with 3 clear cut choices" and "the dead trait line", is good design. 

There is so much room wasted here to make different Builds and Specs feel different via unique synergies.

[Dadnir.5038]

Power: I do not share your opinion about blood bank and the need for more vampiric trait.

Condition: You're overlooking the 2 elephants in the room: Dhuumfire and Lingering curse. Dhuumfire is a strong trait but ultimately a bad trait balance wise. It is the main source of the imbalance and shouldn't have been balance through ICD based on the specialization but with a proper rework that does not imply a burn onto an AA. Lingering curse make or break any condi build.

Death magic: I would be glad to see Unholy sanctuary replaced by something else. Deathly strength have always been a mystery. I'm fine with putrid defense as it already is. Minion traits need change (well minion in general need change).

 

I do not think those tweaks would achieve what you expect. It would most likely achieve much more which would eventually settle in new rigid standard shared by all specialization for power and condi.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Condition: You're overlooking the 2 elephants in the room: Dhuumfire and Lingering curse. Dhuumfire is a strong trait but ultimately a bad trait balance wise. It is the main source of the imbalance and shouldn't have been balance through ICD based on the specialization but with a proper rework that does not imply a burn onto an AA. Lingering curse make or break any condi build.

I'm not. As for Dhuumfire, I know you are on a long time crusade against that Trait - but as I mentioned before to you, over the years at this point, it's really not that strong or remarkable of a Trait. I'm not sure why you think it this problematic. 

On Condi Scourge, it barely outperforms Eternal Life (through the extra Torment from Manifest Sand Shade Procs via more spammable Shade skills), which also grants Protection and more readily spammable group Barrier, Cleanse and CC by giving you more LF. And even on full Condi Harbinger which revolves a lot around Shroud auto attacks, Death Perception isn't far at all behind in DPS either. 

In short, for a purely condi Trait it performs remarkably "poor" on Condi builds compared to almost even Utility and Power options (or somewhat comparable Traits like Amplified Wrath on other prof., singular Traits making up greater percentages of total build damage). 

The different balancing on it for different Specialisations isn't unique either (see Path of Corruption). Additionally, it's not even necessary. It's not like there are any alternatives to SR anyway, and it doesn't invalidate any other Trait choice for that slot. Since the Trait is just DPS numbers rather than unique or hard to balance Utility or such, Anet could easily make Dhuumfire uniform for all especs, and then take damage out somewhere else in those kits to compensate if necessary. It's arbitrary. 

I'm not sure how you can justify calling it "the main source of imbalance". Of what?

 

As for Lingering Curses, Harbinger has access to Pistol for one weapon set, and in my suggested changes I mention making Staff viable for PvE for the other set by adding more Poison to it, and compensating for the loss of bleed procs from Barbed Precision and the extra Condition Damage from Lingering Curses and Target the Weak by adding a massive Poison Damage and Duration increase to the Death Magic Line - with cHarbinger already having decent Poison access. Putrid Mark substitutes Plague Sending (and transfers are less relevant without Master of Corruption). 

 

So while Curses would remain a definite mainstay for Scourge, since it's camping Scepter - it would not be for Harbinger, opening up different options.

 

Quote

I do not think those tweaks would achieve what you expect. It would most likely achieve much more which would eventually settle in new rigid standard shared by all specialization for power and condi.

That depends entirely on tuning.

Again, Scourge needs Curses and Lingering Curses since it camps Scepter. It also has far less poison access than cHarbinger, making this Poison boosting DM Line less attractive too.

The suggested adding of Lifesteal to the Harbinger power line is what would make running Blood Magic (with the suggested Lifesteal Damage increasing trait which you discounted) worth it, unlike for Power Reaper, lacking that innate lifesteal - favouring Damage Modifiers like Close to Death for things like slow but hard hitting <50% Gravedigger Spam. 

 

The very point of these ideas is to add synergies that make different Traitlines worth more for different specs to make their builds feel distinct from each other, keeping in mind not to create new universally picked, better, Traits.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Wintermute.5408]

I don't think traits are as much of a problem. Ultimately, they don't really do much to affect gameplay, one way or the other.

The weapons are. Every single core necro weapon is kittening trash. Scepter is carried exclusively by the trait assigned to it. Axe only exists to burn a single skill on it before diving into the shroud. This pathetic state of weapons that existed for YEARS is the reason Scourge doesn't even bother to weapon swap. Harb only uses scepter in the same manner axe is used, burning a skill and diving into the shroud. Dagger is trash in both hands. Focus is trash. Staff is trash. Warhorn is trash. Every single good weapon necro has is part of an espec. Others have literally no use. If by some miracle of balance power Harb will become a thing, you can save the gold on secondary weapon slot and just leave it empty.

The utilities are, ESPECIALLY the especs ones. There is no elite skill for power to speak of. Minions are a mostly dead skill category, with abominable lack of control that makes me think twice about taking golem on some fights (call off your golem necro wtf 🧂🧂🧂). Spectrals are mostly unused, but at least they have some utility in them. Reaper shouts are a kittening joke, and were a kittening joke since release. Punisments have been mostly worthless since Scourge release, and have now been completely killed off with Sand Flare nerf, making it the wosrt heal skill of the class. Harbinger elixirs are, by far, the WORST skills in the game, that only exist to maintain the blight and for nothing else, and I dare you to find a worse skill category.

So yeah. No kitten all necro specs play the same, when we are forced to play the same 5-6 skills for a decade now. I don't have that much experience with other classes, but at least Thieves get to use their espec utilities consistently. And have an actually wide array of weapons (as in, more than 1 and a half in core) for different playstiles.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Wintermute.5408

[Bookah pls.9352]

Post mostly aimed at the weapon issue rather than us using the same traitlines for each espec roles since that's kinda deep rooted into the traitlines purpose for each type of build, you do power dmg? Spite, you do condi? Curses, heal focused? Blood, minions? Death magic, then theres soul reaping which fits into pretty much all since its about lifeforce and shroud, theres no real wiggle room for traitline diversity.

As weird and conflicting as it sounds to how especs work, id like to see them do away with weapons being locked behind only especs and instead also push them either into core traitlines or just core unlocked overall. Like either all necros have access to greatsword torch and pistol or they are also unlocked by damage type traitlines along with their especs.

For example greatsword is useable by a necro who uses the spite traitline OR reaper line, Torch is useable by a necro who uses curses OR scourge, pistol by soul reaping? OR harbinger.

 

There would maybe be some rejigging required for other classes but in the case of necro who seems to really suffer from this weapon issue there would be no mechanical differences or conflicts if a reaper/harb/core could use a torch offhand or a core/harb/scourge could wield a greatsword. Like torch has no interaction with shades, pistol with elixers or harb shroud and hell reaper shroud doesn't even actually use a greatsword it uses a damned hammer.

 

The current weapon list is a big reason i was desperate for an offhand pistol option on harb, it really only uses dagger because it can't use torch and an offhand pistol could have been either a power offhand option or maybe even elixer/blight related.

 

It wouldn't fix the issues some of the current weapons have but it would freshen up the options available. 

Would make leveling much more interesting too as i honestly think the necro leveling is one of the most boring experiences in any mmo, leveling a power necro with a greatsword instead of axe would be cool.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Bookah pls.9352