Weaver and Tempest overnerfed and forgotten

[Puck.3697]

51 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 A lot of classes have complex rotation or complex understanding on their mechanics.

 

On contrary elem is simple : you have no option,  and no sustain.
DPS is split into so many skills, so many traits, and yet it will still punish you if you don't take one. Because, no matter you're condi or power, in group, against one encounter or lot of adds, ... no matter the situation, you have no  other option and they're too big to be neglected.

 

Fire is a good example.

Persisting flame is the trait for both condi and power, even support tempest. But you're in a group and struggle to cap 25 mights, you think Pyromancer's training could help you and your group ? Aaaaaaaaaand you're so wrong, this trait won't even grant enough might to the group and the "dps compensation" is trash, go back to persisting flame.

You have some option in Air, but ... you don't really see it anyway. And that's all.

 

You're weaver, your uber elitists allies mistake "No healer" with "No sustain at all" and you would like to switch an utility skill for Stone resonance, or Weaver's prowess for Bolstered Elements ? Wrong again ! You've just lost at least 3k dps and barriers are too weaks or with too long CD anyway, you still better want to burst and die miserably.

 

Wait ... wait ... OMG you've just switched to water and use riptide ? I really hope you have fresh air or alacrity, because you've just lost 4 sec of Elemental Polyphony, Empowering flame or aeromancer's training, Element's of rage (unless you doubble attune to water??) a Sunspot in rotation, the ability to use GoEP/Storm, or Primordial stance ... I hope your 1.5k healing was worth it.

 

I just don't get how Developpers can't see this.

You read Weaver's prowess, you read the other traits in Master, it's too big to not see the issue.
You try 1 minute Pyromancer's puissance, you should see instantly it's garbage and the prevalence of persisting flame

But no, they debate if burning on skills should be 1.4785 sec or 2*0.7587sec. Or they buff barrier on dual attacks ... wow +20% on a 450 barrier every 7sec ... wow ... thank you so much Anet. Too much sustain in one update.

i would actually disagree unless your talking specifically Power Weaver.

Condi and Hybrid weaver ironically both flex into both Water and Earth in its general rotations, which means you effectively do actually have Options, Where Power weaver tends to only use 2/4 elements meaning Water and Earth are completely wasted almost.

And no, Not many clases have Complex Rotations, In ALOT of cases ALOT of builds barely use a Weapon Swap which actually makes Rotations FAR easier as it is far Less requiring on Muscle memory.

So yes. while this is a Problem for Power Weaver, which is actually very simple to play. it is Not a problem for hybrid of Condi weaver which is the direction the Speccs been pushed in for quite a while, Power Catalyst is now elementalists Power option realistically. which is once again a Huge step up in difficulty from Power weaver

and another example of a Rotation which involves Water and Earth allowing sustain to be accessible.

there is a Reason why People continously have Chanted "Elementalist Requires higher Effort for lower reward" and that is because actually how simplistic ALOT of the other options realistically are, theres a Reason why every single Guide / Benchmark / Build site the vast majority of Speccs get rated 2 or 3 / 5 while Elementalist is commonly thrown at 5.

u talk about "no healer runs" yet there have been speed clears with weavers Doing very well. with no healers Present. you dont see a player like grimjack flopping dead every 2 seconds he doesnt have a Dedicated support.

we play a game where Mirage can get 35k DPS with only using 2 buttons and no weapon swap to compare here realistically.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

42 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

i would actually disagree unless your talking specifically Power Weaver.

Condi and Hybrid weaver ironically both flex into both Water and Earth in its general rotations, which means you effectively do actually have Options, Where Power weaver tends to only use 2/4 elements meaning Water and Earth are completely wasted almost.

And no, Not many clases have Complex Rotations, In ALOT of cases ALOT of builds barely use a Weapon Swap which actually makes Rotations FAR easier as it is far Less requiring on Muscle memory.

So yes. while this is a Problem for Power Weaver, which is actually very simple to play. it is Not a problem for hybrid of Condi weaver which is the direction the Speccs been pushed in for quite a while, Power Catalyst is now elementalists Power option realistically. which is once again a Huge step up in difficulty from Power weaver

and another example of a Rotation which involves Water and Earth allowing sustain to be accessible.

there is a Reason why People continously have Chanted "Elementalist Requires higher Effort for lower reward" and that is because actually how simplistic ALOT of the other options realistically are, theres a Reason why every single Guide / Benchmark / Build site the vast majority of Speccs get rated 2 or 3 / 5 while Elementalist is commonly thrown at 5.

u talk about "no healer runs" yet there have been speed clears with weavers Doing very well. with no healers Present. you dont see a player like grimjack flopping dead every 2 seconds he doesnt have a Dedicated support.

 

 

You use water inside weaveself to keep 10sec buff.
Other wise I don't know how they write they rotation todays but twin strike and frenzy thing  are zero dps increase outside weaveself precisely because you lose element's of rage + some seconds for Sunspot/transmute fire in the fire/air/earth rotation and they do big mistake to include them and make rotatio longer than necessary.
Still you don't go into water for sustain with riptide, aqua siphon, steam surge, aqua stance ... you go into water for one skill and spam f1 or f3 to quickly come back to stronger skills and fillers.
Edit, I know the argument "it's the same with FB when they use tomes" from our beloved quickbrands that don't want to see their 33k dps decrease for support build; which it's false, you take less than a second and half to spam 4+5 or 5+4 or bubble for group support, you have better healing, and your symbols, purging flames etc still pulse burnings without loss. Weaver is the most punished spec of the game from using sustain/panic skills or traits.

 

About the "no healer" I don't speak about speed clear, it's just a Joke to mock weaver's reliance and  "elite wannabes" in PUG. As I did a "no healer 15k ufe"  run on CM fractals this week, and it was garbage : no f2-f3 tomes, no protection, no cleanse, no pull/cleave, no stab, no boonstrip + people standing in aoe at Mama, Siax ...

Edited April 9, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Puck.3697]

34 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

 

You use water inside weaveself to keep 10sec buff.
Other wise I don't know how they write they rotation todays but twin strike and frenzy thing  are zero dps increase outside weaveself precisely because you lose element's of rage + some seconds for Sunspot/transmute fire in the fire/air/earth rotation and they do big mistake to include them and make rotatio longer than necessary.
Still you don't go into water for sustain with riptide, aqua siphon, steam surge, aqua stance ... you go into water for one skill and spam f1 or f3 to quickly come back to stronger skills and fillers.

 

About the "no healer" I don't speak about speed clear, it's just a Joke to mock weaver's reliance and  "elite wannabes" in PUG. As I did a "no healer 15k ufe"  run on CM fractals this week, and it was garbage : no f2-f3 tomes, no protection, no cleanse, no pull/cleave, no stab, no boonstrip + people standing in aoe at Mama, Siax ...

Well yeah the average player is terrible at the game. Gw2 has done nothing over it's life span to incentivize players to get better.

The point was the DPS loss is lower to use sustain inside attunements in use, unlike weaver which litterally has to interupt it's attunement cycle to access it's sustain. 

Weavers rotation is beyond the vast majority. A 40+ button rotational loop is beyond the average players memory to stack.. 

Let alone if you stack the pressure of a real raid enviroment ontop of it.

And yes as my orginal post stated, weaver being extremely boon reliant means weaver doesn't have alot of value in average pugs and raids. 

Other proffessions just get everything baked in. 

Scourge - barrier spam on normal DPS buttons. 

Guardian, just press F3 and block it. 

Etc etc. 

Weavers forced to actually play a reactory role effectively. Because a DPS dip is better then being dead and doing no DPS. 

Also, Condi weaver uses D/F, it's just its harder to use then sword. 

Imho hybrid weaver likely should be the way they go, it's alot less boon dependent. So with the right tweaks and buffs it could prolly see a fair bit of value compared to power or Condi 

And power weaver should be let go of, no point having both cata and weaver competing for the same spot. 

34 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Edit, I know the argument "it's the same with FB when they use tomes" from our beloved quickbrands that don't want to see their 33k dps decrease for support build; which it's false, you take less than a second and half to spam 4+5 or 5+4 or buble for group support, you have better healing, and your symbols, purging flames etc still pulse burnings without loss.

tbh FB isnt rly the same, FB is ALOT more tame, its rotation is far easier, because they bundled ALOT into Specific abilities which makes ALOT of its Kit ignorable. to add to this they're Rotation is ALOT shorter meaning they arent continously chasing CDs Like weaver is.

so they have the gaps in their CDs to allow extra use from tomes.

Weaver does not have gaps in their rotation. when u have to dip into sustain or use a evade you have to be able to consistently make decisions continously through the fight on how to alter ur rotation around that Because if u try to just use your static Rotation and Add things to to it, ur going to misalign CDs and Wreck urself.

Which means u have to continously make the decision on bending its rotation around it.

Weaver actually takes Very Little hit for using the wrong abilities. the massive DPS Losses are generally from when u misalign. so providing u actually Arent Overusing attunements and Keeping the cycle through quickly and Ensuring CDs remain aligned you can afford to dip into sustain abilities with very little DPS Loss.

the problem is the average Player cannot do this. the idea of Changing ur rotation on the fly is Above Most players capability. heck just doing its rotation is Above most players capabilities. which encourages this Double down where you not only try to do its Full rotation. but Add Additional Sustain usage to that rotation.

then misalign all ur CDs and ur DPS Falls apart because you dont have access to whats needed in the Weave self burst rotation and more.

they could make Weaver easier to play, it wouldnt really take Alot, Just bundle More of its abilities into a Smaller rotation. by making making specific abilities stronger and Making other abilities completely ignorable by balancing that out, this would Reduce weavers Rotational Size which would reduce the Impact of using Sustain ontop of the Rotation.

the Question is, is Making weaver Easier to play the right decision.

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Guessing you don't PvP alot with ele then? It's basically the staple of every build in competitive modes. 

Used alot less in PvE builds however. 

I would pressume he's talking PvP as I rly can't think of anywhere it has a strong dependency on arcane in. Except maybe high  solo builds

Not lately, but I've put in a lot of time with tempest in sPvP in the past - that usually runs water/earth or water/fire depending on whether you expect to face power or conditions respectively, and more aggressive tempest builds might squeeze air in.

Experimented with weaver, but can't remember if I used Arcane or Earth. I can see it being more beneficial for weaver since they switch much more often than a tempest does. Either way, I certainly wouldn't say elementalist generally is reliant on Arcane. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Well yeah the average player is terrible at the game. Gw2 has done nothing over it's life span to incentivize players to get better.

The point was the DPS loss is lower to use sustain inside attunements in use, unlike weaver which litterally has to interupt it's attunement cycle to access it's sustain. 

Weavers rotation is beyond the vast majority. A 40+ button rotational loop is beyond the average players memory to stack.. 

Let alone if you stack the pressure of a real raid enviroment ontop of it.

And yes as my orginal post stated, weaver being extremely boon reliant means weaver doesn't have alot of value in average pugs and raids. 

Other proffessions just get everything baked in. 

Scourge - barrier spam on normal DPS buttons. 

Guardian, just press F3 and block it. 

Etc etc. 

Weavers forced to actually play a reactory role effectively. Because a DPS dip is better then being dead and doing no DPS. 

Also, Condi weaver uses D/F, it's just its harder to use then sword. 

Imho hybrid weaver likely should be the way they go, it's alot less boon dependent. So with the right tweaks and buffs it could prolly see a fair bit of value compared to power or Condi 

And power weaver should be let go of, no point having both cata and weaver competing for the same spot. 

tbh FB isnt rly the same, FB is ALOT more tame, its rotation is far easier, because they bundled ALOT into Specific abilities which makes ALOT of its Kit ignorable. to add to this they're Rotation is ALOT shorter meaning they arent continously chasing CDs Like weaver is.

so they have the gaps in their CDs to allow extra use from tomes.

Weaver does not have gaps in their rotation. when u have to dip into sustain or use a evade you have to be able to consistently make decisions continously through the fight on how to alter ur rotation around that Because if u try to just use your static Rotation and Add things to to it, ur going to misalign CDs and Wreck urself.

Which means u have to continously make the decision on bending its rotation around it.

Weaver actually takes Very Little hit for using the wrong abilities. the massive DPS Losses are generally from when u misalign. so providing u actually Arent Overusing attunements and Keeping the cycle through quickly and Ensuring CDs remain aligned you can afford to dip into sustain abilities with very little DPS Loss.

the problem is the average Player cannot do this. the idea of Changing ur rotation on the fly is Above Most players capability. heck just doing its rotation is Above most players capabilities. which encourages this Double down where you not only try to do its Full rotation. but Add Additional Sustain usage to that rotation.

then misalign all ur CDs and ur DPS Falls apart because you dont have access to whats needed in the Weave self burst rotation and more.

they could make Weaver easier to play, it wouldnt really take Alot, Just bundle More of its abilities into a Smaller rotation. by making making specific abilities stronger and Making other abilities completely ignorable by balancing that out, this would Reduce weavers Rotational Size which would reduce the Impact of using Sustain ontop of the Rotation.

the Question is, is Making weaver Easier to play the right decision.

 

 

As you said, we create gap in rotation in pve :

We oblige sustain traits in somes tiers by removing the dps ones; we mix dps and sustains traits (like bolsthered elements, stances grant barriers, barriers grant damages.  Mix element's of rage + master's Fortitude. ) to make skills like stone resonance, aqua stance or whatever both panic/sustain skills and damage modificators.

Increase base power and coef of AA and  for all elements. (and all weapons)

We may change some weapon skills to lower base power or condi, duration, to make them less dominant, but add utility : a block, a barrier, boon generation, teleport, other condi covr ... For example Flamewall, almost no change since 2015; if you fail miserably or if the boss moves, change it so you don't want to cry /gg.
Why not change primordial stance to pulse one different condition per second, starting by your current element to make it less mandatory for DPS in group but rather for solo/roaming gameplay, or vulnerability source in group.
Same with Glyph of EP/Storm: Make GoEP ...Power (with no burning), and storm more like jade sphere with boon generation for example;  less "current attunement" reliant, etc. 

To make those skills more situational, non mandatory. Then we tweak numbers to give 38-41k.

 

I honestly think it'll be hard to make rotation simpler but keep identity and no punishment from mistakes; but it's not hard to make weaver's life easier and help them to focus on it.
The "bug" on Element Refreshment when you earned barriers on each skills was a good example of how weaver could be decent, and rewarding, just with 4-6k barriers.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Puck.3697]

8 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

As you said, we create gap in rotation in pve :

We oblige sustain traits in somes tiers by removing the dps ones; we mix dps and sustains traits (like bolsthered elements, stances grant barriers, barriers grant damages.  Mix element's of rage + master's Fortitude. ) to make skills like stone resonance, aqua stance or whatever both panic/sustain skills and damage modificators.

Increase base power and coef of AA and  for all elements. (and all weapons)

We may change some weapon skills to lower base power or condi, duration, to make them less dominant, but add utility : a block, a barrier, boon generation, teleport, other condi covr ... For example Flamewall, almost no change since 2015; if you fail miserably or if the boss moves, change it so you don't want to cry /gg.
Why not change primordial stance to pulse one different condition per second, starting by your current element to make it less mandatory for DPS in group but rather for solo/roaming gameplay, or vulnerability source in group.
Same with Glyph of EP/Storm: Make GoEP ...Power (with no burning), and storm more like jade sphere with boon generation for example;  less "current attunement" reliant, etc. 

To make those skills more situational, non mandatory. Then we tweak numbers to give 38-41k.

 

I honestly think it'll be hard to make rotation simpler but keep identity and no punishment from mistakes; but it's not hard to make weaver's life easier and help them to focus on it.
The "bug" on Element Refreshment when you earned barriers on each skills was a good example of how weaver could be decent, and rewarding, just with 4-6k barriers.

True but would also make weaver sustain faceroll stupid espically as they've nerfed proffessions who were even intended to have barrier this high.

4/5k is prolly abit high for today's balancing..

it's doable. Make more of the abilities in attunements utility based instead of DMG it will shrink the DPS rotation while expanding the utility of the proffession. 

Rremove attack chains and give it a 600 range auto attack. With a flat amount of power Dmg on air and water and Condi damage on fire and earth. 

these would defintly go to some ends to making things easier