Balancing around speedrunning is absurd

[Coldtart.4785]

Speedrunning is so far outside standard play that it's virtually a different game than what the rest of the players are playing. There is zero connection between world record attempts where even a 0.01 second time saving can be the difference between getting the record and not getting it and normal play where you only strictly need to be averaging 10k dps per player to win. In standard play you are generally expected to run builds that reliably clear the content in a timely manner, thus the meta defining builds for standard play will be the easiest builds, not the ones with the highest theoretical dps. Conversely, in speedrun play you must run the composition that achieves the highest theoretical dps, even if achieving that is a long shot. If a stacking comp would result in even 100 dps more than any other comp you have no choice but to run it if you intend to set a world record. There is absolutely no chance you will ever balance a healthy variety of comps to have the exact same theoretical dps with the exact same likelihood of achieving said dps, therefore every fight will always have one perfect comp that every world record attempt must use.

[Tescao.3042]

The achievement is only that which cannot be taken away by death. Anything that death can take cannot be an achievement. Developers don't balance around speedrunning (or meta), they give you choices.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Tescao.3042

[Labjax.2465]

On 7/9/2022 at 5:01 AM, Coldtart.4785 said:

There is absolutely no chance you will ever balance a healthy variety of comps to have the exact same theoretical dps with the exact same likelihood of achieving said dps, therefore every fight will always have one perfect comp that every world record attempt must use.

I've been mulling this issue over reading different takes on it and I think this point cuts through to the heart of it. It's just not realistic to balance that way. Maybe in a game with simpler mechanics, but with how this game's combat works and the people they have to do it? (sure seems like not many people)

Just a pipe dream, a game of whack a mole that wastes development time instead of spending it on changes that will improve the experience for most players. We've seen the result, is balancing this way makes things worse for most players. To even make such balancing work requires the precision tweaking akin to a surgeon with a thorough understanding of the class's anatomy and they are bringing a buzzsaw to classes they don't understand. So if all they can bring to the table is a buzzsaw and poor understanding of the class, then for heaven's sake, don't try to balance in a way that requires a surgeon's level of precision. They need to either hire people who can do what they can't, or at the very least, figure out what their balancing strengths are and do that.

[Voyant.1327]

On 7/9/2022 at 6:10 AM, Tescao.3042 said:

The achievement is only that which cannot be taken away by death. Anything that death can take cannot be an achievement. Developers don't balance around speedrunning (or meta), they give you choices.

This last patch was quite literally based around speed giving Quickness/Alacrity buffs to a lot of specs. Thus now you have a majority of groups who require or expect it.

It is essentially exactly what OP is saying. The game has been focused on speeding it up which simply created a bigger rift between the meta obsessed and everyone else.

I've said it elsewhere, and agree with OP. Not everyone likes the speedrun/speed clearing/efficency/facetank stacking Meta. This patch made it even harder to find fun groups because of such.

When the emphasis is on clearing content as fast as possible it misses the point for a lot of people, enjoyment > efficiency. Understand speedclearers enjoy rushing thu it and that's totally ok. But now its hard to avoid when it used to be an option. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

The ridiculous part is they are balancing around third party DPS meters. 

It'd be one thing if this stuff was easily accessible and open through in-game means, but so much of GW2 has always been 'accepted' third party (TACO, Arc, etc. etc.).  

It's an obvious internal conflict; you have dev's wanting LI builds to take precedence but then other forces balancing around raids and DPS.

[Tescao.3042]

20 hours ago, Voyant.1327 said:

This last patch was quite literally based around speed giving Quickness/Alacrity buffs to a lot of specs. Thus now you have a majority of groups who require or expect it.

It is essentially exactly what OP is saying. The game has been focused on speeding it up which simply created a bigger rift between the meta obsessed and everyone else.

I've said it elsewhere, and agree with OP. Not everyone likes the speedrun/speed clearing/efficency/facetank stacking Meta. This patch made it even harder to find fun groups because of such.

When the emphasis is on clearing content as fast as possible it misses the point for a lot of people, enjoyment > efficiency. Understand speedclearers enjoy rushing thu it and that's totally ok. But now its hard to avoid when it used to be an option. 

I've seen all this in WoW before. Modern players probably don't even know what it is to pass Icecrown Citadel without a zonal buff, when there was no such dissemination of information, but there was only a mystery. The developers never put the words Meta or Speedrun in their notes before releasing patches. They also do not force players to go to sites with additional information.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

It's a shame that Anet took a complete 180 with the release of gw2. Gw1 had the most broken skills and everyone loved every second of it. Nowadays there's to much of an attempt to "balance everything out" with Just forgetting a couple of details like their blue favourite. 

[Kodama.6453]

16 minutes ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

It's a shame that Anet took a complete 180 with the release of gw2. Gw1 had the most broken skills and everyone loved every second of it. Nowadays there's to much of an attempt to "balance everything out" with Just forgetting a couple of details like their blue favourite. 

Lmao, this is the first time I read someone complaining about devs trying to balance a game instead of just releasing broken af kitten.

[the krytan assassin.9235]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Lmao, this is the first time I read someone complaining about devs trying to balance a game instead of just releasing broken af kitten.

The big difference is that most classes were broken all in their own way. 2012 WvW is a good example of a balanced gamemode by the unique expertises of the professions.

 

Guard provided stability and healing

Warriors was good for condi cleanse, cc and banner

Necro had boonstrip

Ranger & thief were excellent for the ganksquad

Ele had massive aoe dmge & access to water fields

Mesmer provided stealth and portals

Just engi was abit lackluster i believe. 

 

Now Lets look at todays wvw meta: 

Guard has heal, stability and basically any boon in the game

Engie has superspeed, immense condi cleanse, very good healing, stability, stealth. 

Thief & ranger are nonexistant since the boonball mintrel & reflect meta 

Ele is nerfed down to average aoe dps. 

Mesmer's 'broken' group stealth is now Inferior to engi's gyros

Warrior is no longer tanky and bad at cc and condi cleanse.  Bubble not that usefull anymore either.

Necro's boonrip is still present, but has become available for alot of different classes. 

Revenant used to be decent for aoe dps, but got also nerfed down. 

 

At 2012 every class had it's own role and purpose, they were broken in their own way. Nowadays removal of unique class design & improper balancing resulted in Guard & engi still having their own 'superpowers' while the other classes lost them resulting in half of the classes basically banished from the game mode and gameplay that doesn't feel impactfull. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by the krytan assassin.9235