Design goals for Shadow Shroud

[kash.9213]

3 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

In the context of WvW, the primary issue I touch above is that the actual state of WvW is not enabling small-scale play enough where it matters because no smallscale play actually occurs in the first place.  Smallscale today more or less exclusively consists of:

- 1v1:  There are better 1v1 builds on the thief because the support is redundant.  Though it was still a very strong duelist in good hands because it got a LOT of damage negation on its condition build with access to shroud + stealth+ Dire/TB defensive stats.
- Ganking:  You don't need support when you're already outnumbering people.

Since smallscale play is dead, its rhetorical strengths aren't realities not because of anything pertinent to the class, but just the nature of WvW today thanks to warclaw, mass quitting of players by the imbalance of smallscale combat post-expansions.

Which is why it was so strong in sPvP.  It's actually nutty in the slower format where small fights are constantly breaking out and where targets are focused making the solo-support very valuable when it's strong, because of its ability to support, deal decent damage, and have better escape contingencies than every other support build in the game, with decapping all wrapped in one nice package.

And why it's being relegated to bad-tier in PvE:  The support aspect isn't good enough to carry a group of 10 players (despite being excellent for 2-5) which are generally all taking significant damage simultaneously from boss attacks (which is more akin to blob play and how large groups of players get bombed all at once), and its low self-sustain/mitigation in the case of shroud negation just make it worse than other options at dealing damage or staying alive - to which the thief is always bad at self-sustain, anyways, so you might as well just pick a better boon-tank.

This is reflected back into the OP's question of, "What is this actually supposed to do?"  Because the way thief plays in the respective formats is completely and totally different thanks to its design and decade of skill splits/designing for unhealthy and abused mechanics that weren't nipped in the bud properly, like permanent stealth into burst combos or 100% agency over fight selection.

Is Specter pretty much right where it should be now in sPvP? 

I think it's bad at self sustain because you still need to pop back out of Shroud to sustain yourself if you get focused, alone or in a group. That endless mitigation people keep harping on takes a break during Shroud because it has to, not because Shroud gives it a break, that bar gases out fast under any attention. That makes it bad at group sustain because you're deciding to actually use Shroud or sit on or in it.  Spvp is kind of a niche ecosystem so maybe that bar isn't getting eaten as fast as elsewhere and that's why they can hit up the maps in multiple aspects. 

When was Specter supposed to keep up 10 players? Just wield one player at a time depending on what they're up to, and that's probably going to keep up the group anyway. That's what specter was actually supposed to do, given that it's designed to do just that. A balance change like this last one just makes all of the resource bars move less because they're used less. 

 

[Gwynnion.7364]

Specter's weird positioning in different game modes is largely the result of trying to be a single target support, which isn't really supported outside of maybe PVP, and thus lacking in group support tools other than Consume Shadows, which is highly unreliable, essentially locking it out of WvW and PVE.  Based on its mechanics, I think the devs intended it to be a strong support / scrapper in PVP and it apparently did that job well.  Perhaps too well.  Although from the sound of it, the Shroud nerf also hit the PVP build too hard.

Someone elsewhere compared Specter to Scourge as a support condi DPS spec and I think that puts us in the ballpark of where it should be to really do its job, assuming we actually want thief to have a group support spec in multiple modes.

To do that, though, I think you need to remove tethering and the single target support concept, which I don't think anyone is too attached to anyway, and spread barrier, healing, condi cleanse, stability, etc. around at a reasonable level so it's still functional in PVP while being more useful to larger groups. 

Consume Shadows needs to be reworked so it's not dependent on Shroud health, which is what makes it so random (either too much or too little).  At that point, you can adjust Shroud health to a reasonable level (1.0 has been suggested) so it's useful to jump in, tank some hits, while doing DPS and spreading support to allies.

At the same time, you might as well give scepter some cleave so it's more useful against groups, which would be a nice QoL thing.  I'm equivocal on whether you should remove the support abilities from scepter or spread them at a reduced level to more players.  I personally wouldn't mind removing them and putting more emphasis on Shroud for support since that's supposed to be Specter's whole gig.

Second Opinion and Shallow Grave should be combined as a support trait to buff healing and barriers and expending Shadow Shroud to revive a downed player.  That would open up a slot for a DPS trait someone might actually want to take other than Consume Shadows, which could be used as a clutch heal instead.

I'm likewise equivocal on whether wells should include shadowsteps: some people are annoyed by the extra mobility they give, especially in PVP, while teleporting into a zerg to buff your allies is generally instant death in WvW.  It also works against the ranged flavor of scepter.  There's enough stealth and mobility in thief's core kit that I wouldn't mind losing it.  On the other hand, it is part of how Specter currently does healing via Traversing Dusk.

Anyway, you get the idea.  I think you conserve the essence of Specter as a condi DPS spec that can also provide healing, barrier, and alacrity to a group if traited and geared for it, which would make it more attractive across multiple game modes.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Gwynnion.7364

[Gwynnion.7364]

I think if you keep Specter as-is, you can't avoid it being a powerful support in PVP and a generic condi DPS everywhere else because that's all the class is designed to do.  You can tweak Shroud HP and Consume Shadows to be less obnoxious but that's about it.  Otherwise it's mediocre everywhere, as in its current state, and we already have Catalyst for that.

[AikijinX.6258]

Specter was Anet’s ‘experiment’ to introduce single target ally healing into the mix. They said they would be paying close attention to it since it’s a newly introduced mechanic as well as closely keeping an eye on shroud. I’m not so sure how much they are actually paying attention though. 
 

Can we all agree that this ‘Thief Experiment’ failed. And although I would love for them to go back to the drawing board and redesign this entire Spec from the ground up to how it should be. I understand they just don’t have the resources. But Specter deserves some kind of Justice, whatever it may be. And definitely a deeper in-depth justice opposed to just changing the coefficient to .85 or 1.0 with shroud and giving us multi ally shroud healing/tether

[Gwynnion.7364]

55 minutes ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

But Specter deserves some kind of Justice, whatever it may be. And definitely a deeper in-depth justice opposed to just changing the coefficient to .85 or 1.0 with shroud and giving us multi ally shroud healing/tether

I think if they don't have the resources to build out Specter and several other specs to what they should be, the least they can do is buff them back to a solid, playable state, and that's definitely not 0.69 Shroud strength as it's impeding the few roles it was ever taken for. Let it be strong in PVP. At least that way it'll be valuable somewhere.

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

• Thief has low HP but higher armor than necro, which makes that 8k HP difference slightly less significant,

This really isn't significant at all. I've run the numbers, and the difference between light armour and heavy armour is about 10%. Between light and medium will be even less. Meanwhile, necromancer gets damage reduced by 1/2 in shroud in competitive, which makes for a much bigger difference in survivability.

[Eleandra.4859]

 

EDIT: Hopefully corrected the calculation taking into account  @DarkstarChimaera.5120's and @draxynnic.3719's remarks and corrections:

Putting some text passages into spoiler tags to shorten the post.

EDIT2: Checked again what @DarkstarChimaera.5120 wrote and realized I forgot to add Strength of Shadow.  I will keep it out for now as it does noct change the genereal direction of the effective health pools.

It should also be mentioned again that the shroud pool for Specter is relevant for several different things (see original post) that all scale with the shroud pool.
 
 

Spoiler

In addition to what Valisha said, the nerf equalizes the Necromancer class that has a base health of 19,212 hp at level 80 and the Thief class that only has 11,645 hp.

@DarkstarChimaera.5120 and @draxynnic.3719 corrected me on: Scaling of damage reduction value + additional traits + effects/buffs affecting the health or shroud pool. Thank you for this!
Example of the corrections:

Spoiler

health pool is 10 hp, damage reduction is 33% ( 50% in pvp resp)

This means that the 10 hp pool effectively is worth E = H / (1 - R):

for 33% dmg reduction:

E = 10/(1-0.33)

E = 15,15

for 50% dmg reduction:

E = 10/(1-0.5)

E = 20

-------------------------

1. Necromancer:

BERSERKER Stats (0 vitality)

PVE:
 

Spoiler

Jade bot Core Tier 10 adds +235 vit = 2350 hp in PVE (1 vit = 10 hp)
Reinforced armor grant 5% hp and armor defense in PVE (*1.05)
Necromancer/Reaper PVE hp pool: (19,212 + 2,350) * 1.05 = 22,182

Death-/Reaper-Shroud:
Taking into account soul battery (20% increased shroud pool)
Base shroud pool : 22,182 * (0.69 * 1.2) = 18.367 base shroud pool
Base shroud pool without soul battery

Spoiler

(keeping skills and specific class traits and mechanics out of the discussion may be valuable especially because the two classes are somewhat different in their approach to sustainability)

: 22,182 * (0.69) = 15.306 base shroud pool

Effective hp in shroud:
33% damage reduction in shroud which effectively means 18.367/(1-0.33) = 27,413 effective shroud health pool in PVE (with soul battery).
33% damage reduction in shroud which effectively means 15.306/(1-0.33) = 22,845 effective shroud health pool in PVE (without soul battery).

PVP:
 

Spoiler

Soul battery is a  minor sould reaping trait and commonly used in the highest valued pvp build on metabattle, therefore I will also take it into account for PVP.

Necromancer/Reaper PVP base hp pool: 19,212

Death-/Reaper-Shroud:
Taking into account soul battery (20% increased shroud pool)
Base shroud pool : 19,212 * (0.69 * 1.2) = 15,908 base shroud pool
Base shroud pool without soul battery (keeping skills and specific class traits and mechanics out of the discussion may be valuable especially because the two classes are somewhat different in their approach to sustainability): 19,212 * 0.69 = 13.256 base shroud pool

50% damage reduction in shroud which effectively means 15.908/(1-0.5) = 31,816 effective shroud health pool in PVP with soul battery.
50% damage reduction in shroud which effectively means 13.256/(1-0.5) = 26,512 effective shroud health pool in PVP without soul battery.
 

RITUALIST Stats
(just to provide a high vitality data point)

PVE:
(28,782 + 2350) * 1.05 = 32,689 hp

Death-/Reaper-Shroud
 

Spoiler

Taking into account soul battery (20% increased shroud pool)
Base shroud pool with soul battery : 32.689 * (0.69 * 1.2) = 27.066 base shroud pool
Base shroud pool without soul battery (keeping skills and specific class traits and mechanics out of the discussion may be valuable especially because the two classes are somewhat different in their approach to sustainability): 32,689 * (0.69) = 22.555 base shroud pool

33% damage reduction in shroud which effectively means 27,066/(1-0.33) = 40.397 effective shroud health pool in PVE (with soul battery).
33% damage reduction in shroud which effectively means 22,555/(1-0.33) = 33.664 effective shroud health pool in PVE (without soul battery).

PVP:

Death-/Reaper-Shroud
 

Spoiler

Taking into account soul battery (20% increased shroud pool):
Base shroud pool : 28,782 * (0.69 * 1.2) = 23.831 base shroud pool
Base shroud pool without soul battery (keeping skills and specific class traits and mechanics out of the discussion may be valuable especially because the two classes are somewhat different in their approach to sustainability): 28,782 * 0.69 = 19,860 base shroud pool

50% damage reduction in shroud which effectively means 23,831/(1-0.5) = 47,662 effective shroud health pool in PVP with soul battery.
50% damage reduction in shroud which effectively means 19,860/(1-0.5) = 39,720 effective shroud health pool in PVP without soul battery.
/* --- End of Ritualist hp math --- */

 
2. Specter:

BERSERKER Stats (0 vitality)

PVE:
 

Spoiler

Jade bot adds +235 vit = 2350 hp in PVE (1 vit = 10 hp)
Reinforced armor grant 5% hp and armor defense in PVE (*1.05)
Specter PVE base hp pool: (11,645 + 2,350) * 1.05 = 14,695

Pre-Nerf Specter-Shroud (* 1.5):
Base shroud pool : 14,695 * 1.5 = 22,043 base shroud pool

Post-Nerf Specter-Shroud (* 0.69):
Base shroud pool : 14,695 * 0.69 = 10,140 base shroud pool

Effective hp in shroud:
Effective hp in shroud = base shroud pool (0% damage reduction in shroud)

PVP:
Specter PVP base hp pool: 11,645

Pre-Nerf Specter-Shroud (* 1.5):
Base shroud pool : 11,645 * 1.5 = 17,468 base shroud pool

Post-Nerf Specter-Shroud (* 0.69):
Base shroud pool : 11,645 * .69 = 8,035 base shroud pool

Effective hp in shroud:
Effective hp in shroud = base shroud pool (0% damage reduction in shroud)

RITUALIST stats
(just to provide a high vitality data point)

PVE:
(21,215  + 2350) * 1.05 = 24,743 hp

Pre-Nerf Specter-Shroud:
24,743 * 1.5 = 37,115 base shroud pool
Post-Nerf Specter-Shroud:
24,743 * 0,69 = 17,073 base shroud pool

PVP:
Specter-Shroud:
Pre-Nerf Specter-Shroud:
21,215 * 1.5 = 31,823 base shroud pool
Post-Nerf Specter-Shroud:
21,215 * 0,69 = 14,638 base shroud pool
/* --- End of Ritualist hp math --- */

Comparison:

Total effective life pool of Necromancer and Specter:
PVE:
Zero Vitality Stats:
Necro:   22,182 + 27,413 = 49,595 (with soul battery)
PRE-NERF Specter: 14,695 + 22,043 = 36,738
POST-NERF Specter: 14,695 + 10,140 = 24,835
 
Ritualist Stats:
Necro:   32,689 + 40.397 = 73,086
PRE-NERF Specter: 24,743 + 37,115 = 61,858
POST-NERF Specter: 24,743 + 17,073 = 41,816

PVP:
Zero Vitality Stats:
Necro: 19,212 + 31,816 = 51,028 (with soul battery)
PRE-NERF Specter: 11,645 + 17,468 = 29,113
POST-NERF Specter: 11,645 + 8,035 = 19,680
 
Ritualist Stats:
Necro:   28,782 + 47,662 = 76.444 (with soul battery)
PRE-NERF Specter: 21,215 + 31,823 = 53,038
POST-NERF Specter: 21,215 + 14,638 = 35,835
 

I hope I got it right now.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Eleandra.4859
Hopefully corrected the calculation taking into account @DarkstarChimaera.5120's and @draxynnic.3719's remarks and corrections:

[draxynnic.3719]

It's even worse than that, since taking 2/3 damage (ie, 33% reduction) means 3/2 effective hit points (a 50% increase). 

[Iskarel.7240]

8 hours ago, Eleandra.4859 said:

re: damage reduction

I've been reading through the thread replies, lots of viewpoints especially from PvP/WvW which is great.

I do want to correct the calculations here on damage reduction. A few weeks ago someone on reddit must have been referencing your forum thread, because the figures are familiar.

Generally: If you reduce damage by R%, and have H health pool, your effective health pool E is

E = H / (1 - R)

To make intuitive sense of this, imagine if you had 75% damage reduction. It would take x4 as much damage to deplete your pool, so when we divide by `1 - 0.75 = 0.25`, we get 1 / 0.25 = 4. Similarly if you were taking twice as much damage we'd divide your pool by 2.

For PvE Necromancer we should generally factor in Soul Battery so the conversion ratio is 0.69 * 1.2 = 0.828.

First off, let's assess base HP with Jade Bot and Reinforced Armor

(19,212 + 2,350) * 1.05 = 22,182

Berserker Reaper Shroud pool is 22,182 * 0.828 = 18,367

Next let's say you only have the Shroud damage reduction of 33%, no Protection.

You're taking 0.67 damage (1-0.33). To find the effective HP, divide your shroud pool by 0.67
18,367 / 0.67 = 27,413

Okay, so Reaper right now has ~27.4K effective shroud pool.

Viper Specter has 14,615 similarly adjusted HP, which converts into 10,084 pool. If we assume 10 conditions on the target then we have 20% damage reduction from Strength of Shadows (as an aside, this is one of several reasons why Shadestep is a weak trait), so 10,084 / (1-0.2) ~= 12,605

Ritualist Specter has 27,975 HP, 19,303 shroud pool, and 24,128 effective.

[Eleandra.4859]

10 hours ago, DarkstarChimaera.5120 said:

I've been reading through the thread replies, lots of viewpoints especially from PvP/WvW which is great.

I do want to correct the calculations here on damage reduction. A few weeks ago someone on reddit must have been referencing your forum thread, because the figures are familiar.

Generally: If you reduce damage by R%, and have H health pool, your effective health pool E is

E = H / (1 - R)

To make intuitive sense of this, imagine if you had 75% damage reduction. It would take x4 as much damage to deplete your pool, so when we divide by `1 - 0.75 = 0.25`, we get 1 / 0.25 = 4. Similarly if you were taking twice as much damage we'd divide your pool by 2.

For PvE Necromancer we should generally factor in Soul Battery so the conversion ratio is 0.69 * 1.2 = 0.828.

First off, let's assess base HP with Jade Bot and Reinforced Armor

(19,212 + 2,350) * 1.05 = 22,182

Berserker Reaper Shroud pool is 22,182 * 0.828 = 18,367

Next let's say you only have the Shroud damage reduction of 33%, no Protection.

You're taking 0.67 damage (1-0.33). To find the effective HP, divide your shroud pool by 0.67
18,367 / 0.67 = 27,413

Okay, so Reaper right now has ~27.4K effective shroud pool.

Viper Specter has 14,615 similarly adjusted HP, which converts into 10,084 pool. If we assume 10 conditions on the target then we have 20% damage reduction from Strength of Shadows (as an aside, this is one of several reasons why Shadestep is a weak trait), so 10,084 / (1-0.2) ~= 12,605

Ritualist Specter has 27,975 HP, 19,303 shroud pool, and 24,128 effective.

You are absolutely right, thank you for pointing it out. I will amend my napkin math with the correct scaling.

[Venport.3925]

Probably don't have a paragraph to contribute, but I just wanted to throw in that while I do think single target-focused healing could still have some potential, specters single target skills desperately need some cleave/splash effects to really become relevant as a healer, since while I love the trait, shadow savior's healing really isn't consistent enough to be the sole payoff imo

as far as wvw goes, I think one of the condition wells/maybe the power well (we still have preparations if we want raw damage that bad) could be removed in place of some boon strip if we don't mind giving thief some slightly more reliable boon stripping aside from spamming shortbow 4 with an absorption sigil slotted  😊

that and It'd be nice if the nerf of that revive trait was undone, it felt super hasty for something that most support classes can do with half as much effort.

Wvw viable support specter will live on in my dreams along with boon deadeye