Utility Skill Suggestion - Change haste to 5 man in PvE thoughts?

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, Doggie.3184 said:

The thrown portion of Spear of Justice. I've never seen it fail to pull mid-way either. The mechanics just feel way more solid than whatever Wire uses.

It is one of the faster side of Projectiles and unblockable. The pull after the spear lands its unavoidable. Its also on the f1 of an elite spec and on a 40 sec cooldown. I would expect it to be better then the ammo utility on core with 20 sec recharge. Doesn't seem unfair/unbalanced to me.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Doggie.3184]

19 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

It is one of the faster side of Projectiles and unblockable. The pull after the spear lands its unavoidable. Its also on the f1 of an elite spec and on a 40 sec cooldown. I would expect it to be better then the ammo utility on core with 20 sec recharge. Doesn't seem unfair/unbalanced to me.¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Perfectly valid reason to leave something barely functional, I guess. /shrug. Anyways, I almost never use it since it's so unreliable. 

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 11/2/2022 at 9:05 AM, LyraOrpheo.8450 said:

If your objective is to maintain 5 man boon, a long cooldown skill shouldn't be your means

The main objective with the idea was to make a unused skill into one that is useful. To essentially provide another option to slot in as a quality of life thing. If it synergized with something else that would have been great. Anyhow my original idea can't be used due to the balance philosophy document so it needs to be rethought.... well unless it was only 5 man swiftness instead and another boon.

[SlayerXX.7138]

22 minutes ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

The main objective with the idea was to make a unused skill into one that is useful. To essentially provide another option to slot in as a quality of life thing. If it synergized with something else that would have been great.

But it is useful. Its a stun break that gives haste. Pretty decent in solo play. Also instant quickness is quality of life if you have to gather something. It also synergizes well with the trait skill off the same name and Sigil of celerity giving high self quickness uptime. On celestial its almost 100%.

I'm not even sure where you would need the boon share. Specter doesn't have much utility slots to spare anyway.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

55 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

But it is useful. Its a stun break that gives haste. Pretty decent in solo play. Also instant quickness is quality of life if you have to gather something. It also synergizes well with the trait skill off the same name and Sigil of celerity giving high self quickness uptime. On celestial its almost 100%.

I'm not even sure where you would need the boon share. Specter doesn't have much utility slots to spare anyway.

No it is not. Not in group content. All it is useful for in group content is a stun break since boons like quickness are expected to be +90% anyways so solo boons like this are bad choices there. Besides that there are so many better options to take then haste. This is precisely why it is never really used. I used it before mounts way back in the day because of the swiftness, but hey lol. It's a "bad choice" utility now.

Also for solo open world content, pvp, wvw I would much rather take blinding powder before haste. It makes you go invisible, provides stability, blindness for foes and not to mention it breaks stun.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder

edit: Also to add to this. I was theory crafting a TANK Specter WvW build with high boon uptime... this is why I was looking at haste in the first place (before the balance philosophy stream). I also wasn't just thinking about specter too btw. A skill like this would be useful for Daredevil and Deadeye. Like I mentioned before it can't be done as I mentioned before because of the last philosophy stream. My idea was to turn the skill into something more useful.

Edited November 4, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415
edited in extra comment

[kash.9213]

24 minutes ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

No it is not. Not in group content. All it is useful for in group content is a stun break since boons like quickness are expected to be +90% anyways so solo boons like this are bad choices there. Besides that there are so many better options to take then haste. This is precisely why it is never really used. I used it before mounts way back in the day because of the swiftness, but hey lol. It's a "bad choice" utility now.

Also for solo open world content, pvp, wvw I would much rather take blinding powder before haste. It makes you go invisible, provides stability, blindness for foes and not to mention it breaks stun.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder

edit: Also to add to this. I was theory crafting a TANK Specter WvW build with high boon uptime... this is why I was looking at haste in the first place.

I started out super high boon uptime but adjusted down along the way to like 43%, but I think about going up again. Even if you're not just firing everything off cooldown, you'll probably be pretty consistent out of necessity anyway if you're going to tank. I think Well cooldowns are mostly alright and you can afford to gamble with a little prescience. 

[SlayerXX.7138]

@ZeroTheRuler.7415 I'm gonna say this so we are on the same page here, if it would end up a straight buff I wouldn't say anything, but that is generally not how balance works out. Its on the same power level as all the other self quickness skills. Which are all useless in group content too. Besides straight up buffing haste with no downsides or tradeoffs I don't see how any change could be beneficial to thief.

The fact it got nerfed only 2 years ago shows that it was very useful in competitive or at least the balance team thought so. Even for your theoretical boon specter tank build, pre nerf haste seems more interesting then any weak boon share they could give to haste within reason.

 

 

 

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 11/4/2022 at 12:43 AM, Albi.7250 said:

@ZeroTheRuler.7415 I'm gonna say this so we are on the same page here, if it would end up a straight buff I wouldn't say anything, but that is generally not how balance works out. Its on the same power level as all the other self quickness skills. Which are all useless in group content too. Besides straight up buffing haste with no downsides or tradeoffs I don't see how any change could be beneficial to thief.

The fact it got nerfed only 2 years ago shows that it was very useful in competitive or at least the balance team thought so. Even for your theoretical boon specter tank build, pre nerf haste seems more interesting then any weak boon share they could give to haste within reason.

 

 

 

I  hope you do not think I am advocating for 5 man quickness on this thread skill after the balance stream. I am not. If you do then you need to reread what was said previously. To be specific this particular idea came out after watching a Mighty Teapot video while I was looking over skills the other day. Haste may not be a good choice to buff like as suggested, however it probably would be a good target to change in some shape or form as a quality of life so it is equally as useful as other options thief has. In my opinion all utility skills should be useful in the distant future.

I like having discussions like this. Sometimes it is fun to think up new ideas even if they may fail. After all I am just a player of this game. Part of having fun is imagining.

Lastly haste is actually stronger today with the 2022 change than it was in 2017 which most likely is from before what you are referencing. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Haste/history

August 08, 2017
Haste: Lowered the recharge from 50 seconds to 30 seconds.
Now grants swiftness for 6 seconds, in addition to its previous effects.
Haste.png
Haste

30 Recharge time  
ProfessionThief icon small.png Thief (skill list)SlotUtilityTypeTrickTraining cost4 Hero pointsGame link[&BgozAAA=]
“
Trick. Gain quickness, fury and swiftness.

 Quickness.png Quickness (6s): Skills and actions are faster.
 Fury.png Fury (6s): +20% Critical Chance
 Swiftness.png Swiftness (6s): +33% Movement Speed
 Breaks stun.png Breaks Stun
— In-game description [?]

-----

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[SlayerXX.7138]

41 minutes ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

I like having discussions like this.

Im not sure about that, it would be nice if your would read not skimm trhough what i wrote then.:)

 

42 minutes ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

Lastly haste is actually stronger today with the 2022 change than it was in 2017 which most likely is from before what you are referencing. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Haste/history

I was refering to the 2020 Competitive nerf. Indicated by "2 years ago" and specifically talking about competitive. Which cut quickness by a third and increased the cooldown. Showing that haste was to usefull in competitive, to the balance team at least.

1 hour ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

Haste may not be a good choice to buff like as suggested, however it probably would be a good target to change in some shape or form as a quality of life so it is equally as useful as other options thief has. In my opinion all utility skills should be useful in the distant future.

In Ow its one of the better dps utilitys (if there is some boon duration on your gear) while also being a stunbreak. It is quality of life as a rather short instant cast quickness for gathering. Its on the same power level as Ranger and Warrior utilitys in the same category. It was actually to strong in competitive and nerfed in 2020. Its a solo utility that does what its sets out to be more or less. I have no idea what you want to add to haste which wouldn't be inconequential or completly overtuned.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 11/5/2022 at 3:29 AM, Albi.7250 said:

Im not sure about that, it would be nice if your would read not skimm trhough what i wrote then.:)

No, I fully read and comprehended what you had to say. Why do you think that I said this below?

On 11/5/2022 at 1:57 AM, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

like having discussions like this. Sometimes it is fun to think up new ideas even if they may fail. After all I am just a player of this game. Part of having fun is imagining.

 

On 11/5/2022 at 3:29 AM, Albi.7250 said:

I was refering to the 2020 Competitive nerf. Indicated by "2 years ago" and specifically talking about competitive. Which cut quickness by a third and increased the cooldown. Showing that haste was to usefull in competitive, to the balance team at least.

Kindly reread the first post and the thread title. The scope of my original idea never has had competitive modes in mind. The original idea was about one specific idea with one specific method to improve PvE usefulness. Now the original post was written before the balance stream as well so the idea is dated. The original idea would have brought that skill to the same level as guardian skills which have no tradeoff. Firebrand seemingly has no holes right now. Again to emphasize my point I am not advocating (advocating means to recommend or support) for the idea anymore.

On 11/5/2022 at 3:29 AM, Albi.7250 said:

In Ow its one of the better dps utilitys (if there is some boon duration on your gear) while also being a stunbreak. It is quality of life as a rather short instant cast quickness for gathering. Its on the same power level as Ranger and Warrior utilitys in the same category. It was actually to strong in competitive and nerfed in 2020. Its a solo utility that does what its sets out to be more or less. I have no idea what you want to add to haste which wouldn't be inconequential or completly overtuned.

I have not presented a new idea to replace the original one. One weakness thief has is it is quite selfish in nature. Specter helped out, however thief could benefit from having more group utility. Haste could be a potential target for improvement in my eyes even if a tradeoff was added to get that extra group utility. 

On 10/28/2022 at 10:56 AM, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

I wish there was more build diversity like guardian on thief. The fact of the matter is most utility skills for thief are unused for PvE which isn't a great feeling.

When I am playing guardian I have tons of options to fit different fights because most guardian skills aren't selfish or solely PvP/WvW based.

AFIK maintaining the status quo goes against what the balance philosophy document has set out to do long term. Things aren't balanced right now which is why there is a balance team in the first place.

PS. This is all I want to say regarding this specific thread since I am tired of repeating myself.

EDIT: for clarity. I do not want to give off the wrong impression about my firebrand comments. I love how firebrand feels and plays out. It is my 2nd most played class after thief.

Edited November 7, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415
add in extra comment about firebrand