Firebrand Rework Preview - Suggestions. [Pages, Tomes, & Traits]

[Gaiawolf.8261]

21 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Now, if it turns out that the page availability is pretty stingy and the higher-tier skills are still the most efficient usage of pages, then you'd be right - people will just use the higher-tier skills despite their increased costs, pushing out the cheaper skills.

This is what the current math calculated for rotations indicates based on the numbers presented in the live stream, yes. The proposed rotation for qfb by the master theorists is to pop Ashes on CD and not have enough pages to make skills 1-4 worth using. Which is why it  poses such concern at the moment, and why many players think it's overkill.

Relying on the devs to later refine the numbers to allow for lesser skills to be used? That's an awful unsure proposition to hope for. It's entirely possible the devs might see the numbers skill 5 puts out along with other adjustments, determines it to be balanced, and sit on it for a while. RIP other skills until ...? 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

2 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

This is what the current math calculated for rotations indicates based on the numbers presented in the live stream, yes. The proposed rotation for qfb by the master theorists is to pop Ashes on CD and not have enough pages to make skills 1-4 worth using. Which is why it  poses such concern at the moment, and why many players think it's overkill.

Relying on the devs to later refine the numbers to allow for lesser skills to be used? That's an awful unsure proposition to hope for. It's entirely possible the devs might see the numbers skill 5 puts out along with other adjustments, determines it to be balanced, and sit on it for a while. RIP other skills until ...? 

 

Which is still a page availability issue. If they were all 1 page, it'd be 5-4-2 and then wait for Ashes to come around again. Without the "use three skills, get one page back" trait, it'd be 5-4 and then wait for Ashes to come around again. The issue is deeper than "some skills cost more pages".

That said, I don't think we've had any indication of how Radiance is going to interact with pages afterwards. Obviously, this doesn't matter at all for fights without adds, but where there are adds, that's likely to be where the real test lies. (And, personally, I don't mind if condi firebrand isn't the greatest at DPSing single targets with no adds, as long as guardian gets something which is. Which is, again, why I don't think this was the right timing for the change, even if I broadly agree with the design.) 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 minute ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which is still a page availability issue. If they were all 1 page, it'd be 5-4-2 and then wait for Ashes to come around again. Without the "use three skills, get one page back" trait, it'd be 5-4 and then wait for Ashes to come around again. The issue is deeper than "some skills cost more pages".

That said, I don't think we've had any indication of how Radiance is going to interact with pages afterwards. Obviously, this doesn't matter at all for fights without adds, but where there are adds, that's likely to be where the real test lies. (And, personally, I don't mind if condi firebrand isn't the greatest at DPSing single targets with no adds, as long as guardian gets something which is. Which is, again, why I don't think this was the right timing for the change, even if I broadly agree with the design.) 

No, it's not just that some skills cost more pages, it's that that plus the page regen rate. This is the primary concern. Most of us don't have a problem with the shared pages or CD increases.

Increased page cost and slower regen rates are restricting resources to skill 5. Reducing or cutting either of those would give us enough to use a few other skills. Personally, I'm in favor of better page regen rates so I can use more of my cheaper, prettier skills. Others see the solution of cutting page costs as the better option. It doesn't work for my playstyle as well, but I see the logic in how it opens up pages for other uses.

Also, I'd be perfectly fine with 5-4-2 on CD. Hell of a lot better than just 5 on CD. We can't rely on adds either. Enough bosses, champs, and legendaries don't have them. Radience won't help in a lot of cases. It's too situational. 

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

No, it's not just that some skills cost more pages, it's that that plus the page regen rate. This is the primary concern. Most of us don't have a problem with the shared pages or CD increases.

Increased page cost and slower regen rates are restricting resources to skill 5. Reducing or cutting either of those would give us enough to use a few other skills. Personally, I'm in favor of better page regen rates so I can use more of my cheaper, prettier skills. Others see the solution of cutting page costs as the better option. It doesn't work for my playstyle as well, but I see the logic in how it opens up pages for other uses.

Also, I'd be perfectly fine with 5-4-2 on CD. Hell of a lot better than just 5 on CD. We can't rely on adds either. Enough bosses, champs, and legendaries don't have them. Radience won't help in a lot of cases. It's too situational. 

I think that in the long run, better page access works better than everything costing 1 always. Because, while it might not be there now, it at least raises the possibility that using skill 1 twice is at least situationally better than mashing the big skill.

Broadly speaking, too, I think it'd be okay if pure DPS condi firebrand ended up only really being suitable in encounters with adds, as long as things like dragonhunter and condi willbender are in a position to step up for single-target fights. The problem is that they aren't.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

39 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think that in the long run, better page access works better than everything costing 1 always. Because, while it might not be there now, it at least raises the possibility that using skill 1 twice is at least situationally better than mashing the big skill.

Broadly speaking, too, I think it'd be okay if pure DPS condi firebrand ended up only really being suitable in encounters with adds, as long as things like dragonhunter and condi willbender are in a position to step up for single-target fights. The problem is that they aren't.

I prefer better page access too, but as long as pages remain stingy, higher page costs won't help the problem. Even with higher page costs of skills 4 and 5, they will still outclass 2 uses of skill 1, by far. Ashes does 7 times the damage of Searing Spell with a party. Seven times! Against multiple targets, all other tome skills combined don't come close to Aftermath, and that's on a lower CD than Ashes, so you would want to save pages even more. Sorry but math doesn't lie. No matter how you slice them pages, as long as slow page regen and high page cost make skill use stingy, it will always work out better to pop your big skill and conserve pages, because you'll need them.

They don't have to top the charts or be the most optimal choice, but all core specs and especs should be viable and be able to compete in all game modes and content. I shouldn't have to changes characters/classes (and let's face it, especs are each basically different classes from each other) just because my friends and I decide to cross boundaries into a different game mode or jump into a strike. My firebrand doesn't even know how to shoot a bow and will end up on her back if she tries to throw a willbender kick. And this build diversity should apply to DH and WB too. All especs in the game, not just FB, Mech, and Scourge. 

 

[Pixelninja.6971]

Tomes feel super weak now and it kills the gameflow, cast F3 5 and 3 and you used up all your pages. Plus 15sec Cooldown on F3 3 and removal of stab from F3 1 was unessasry . I find they have overdone it with the Tomes nerf.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Pixelninja.6971

[Artemis.8034]

You know the old saying if it aint broke , dont fix it? Anet never heard of that saying obviously , its a clunky mess now. The nice smooth flow to playing FB is gone. Pages are not refreshing, prob a bug, but still....it wasnt broke anet! You just had to go and break it, instead of messing with the perfect class that didnt need fixing...why didnt you do something for warriors? They needed buffs and more interesting combat play. But no you broke FB  

[Artemis.8034]

2 hours ago, Pixelninja.6971 said:

Tomes feel super weak now and it kills the gameflow, cast F3 5 and 3 and you used up all your pages. Plus 15sec Cooldown on F3 3 and removal of stab from F3 1 was unessasry . I find they have overdone it with the Tomes nerf.

Omg so much this!! no more smooth flow to FB , im so pissesd right now im seriously thinking about stopping playing the game again. I stopped playing for 2 years when they messed up another spec, because Guardian is my main, and if its no longer fun or is clunky to play forget it. 

[deffy.1320]

i think i might look for a different game as well they've destroyed the support class FB in wvw, so they destroy wat i've loved playing all these years, the original design for FB was working as intended didn't need any changes, it wasn't broke so why fix it, instead they chose to break it, and cause this clumsy pathetic mess of tombs that feels awful to play, i can't say a single thing good about it, bloody totally depressing, i actually loathe the devs that have done this to a class i've had over 10k hrs playing. Certainly, won't be buying anything more from them after this.

[TheHeavyHat.2936]

Yeah, pretty disappointed in firebrand now.  
Did it need a nerf? YES
Is the shared pages/instant access a good solution? YES
Are multiple pages needed for one chapter? NO, this kills it so hard.

[Noel Vheurdrakkhein.3096]

I hate this. I hate this entire Firebrand rework with all my heart. It's killed all my will and eagerness to play my Guardians.
I /LOVED/ playing a Tome-centric guardian that constantly swapped between them. I LOVED it. And now it's been butchered. 
I can't play the way I literally /BUILT/ my Guardian to play.
No matter how I've tried to change my traits around (even with the Renewed Focus(?) Elite skill, my enjoyment and ability to play how I built is irreparably destroyed and cannot be salvaged.

I.. I'm sorry? Since when was flexibility something you punish? Why do you punish us for /literally using our mechanic or even building for it/?
I can barely even tap into my own class mechanic now!
Could it have been balanced a bit better? /Maybe/. But to completely butcher the entire elite spec like this? Are you kidding me?
Please. Please reconsider.

[urieldhynne.2743]

Awful job reworking something in the worst way, is annoying to play, to keep an eye on the CDs that you can't see, Passives of virtues is totally ridiculous now to cast, keep waiting for pages to reload VERY SLOWLY one by one instead a unique CD, is an HUGE nerf to HB. The different cost of pages plus the increase in the CDs... is so clunky....  Is not fun to play with this anymore.

 

I don't want to deal with Anet balanced team's work anymore tbh, I know it well as a veteran WvW player since the release.

[Spucke.4163]

Site generation can be adjusted. I recommend for PvE all 2 sec 1 site, WvW all 4 sec, PvP idk. Change "Loremaster" that it grants longer regeneration duration instead of reduced recharge. CDs of tome skills need to be adjusted in this case too. Firebrand would be fun again.

Edited November 30, 2022 by kaese.8765

[DarkSoul.2348]

PUT IT BACK THE WAY IT WAS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATLY!! its feels like if you made ele choose a element and be like there ya go have fun. Absolute trash.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

36 minutes ago, DarkSoul.2348 said:

PUT IT BACK THE WAY IT WAS EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATLY!! its feels like if you made ele choose a element and be like there ya go have fun. Absolute trash.

LOL! Choosing a whole element would be a luxury compated to what we have now. We can't even get through the skills in a single tome without running out of pages? Let alone 2 or 3! 🙄

[Artemis.8034]

Im playing with it more and it is starting to grow on me. You have to play conservatively but its actually not as bad as I thought at first. You just have to learn what pages with what and to refresh. It does mean you have to think more about it but its actually pretty decent. 

[DarkSoul.2348]

On 12/1/2022 at 12:12 AM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

LOL! Choosing a whole element would be a luxury compated to what we have now. We can't even get through the skills in a single tome without running out of pages? Let alone 2 or 3! 🙄

I Agree, I can't stand how it plays right now ignoring the bugs as well it is gutted and imo unplayable spec rn.I mean to say the rework would be like playing an elementalist  with only access to one element  with the same current pages recharge stuff applied as FB and try to have fun with it Lol