healtempest , for pve endgame ?

[zeyeti.8347]

Hello,

Just wanna know what ele players think about the changes coming up.

personnaly it's all bonuses , so it is welcome , but i can't help myself feeling like it's not enough .

first as a healtempest i really want the warhorn for might application and the boon duration increase , problem is the mainhand really sucks to me .

the update on staff feel really wvw oreinted update , you don't face that much of condition in pve , and while having a -10% damage reduction for your team on staff water 4 is good , let's remember that auras are literally useless , unless you uses bastion of elements , which you don't use because you want alacrity .

And there again the change for the alacrity generator is finally here ! But you will still get punished from overloading at a bad moment (cc , deadly attack you need to dodge , etc ...) , i made that point several times but look at all the other support and how they put the key boon quickness or alacrity , some of them are instant skills or on very low casting time , while the healtempest must do it for 4 secs , thats really punishing and holding tempest as healer back.

Also other healer have better heal access than tempest , i find myself always short on healings facing high damage bosses (like OLC CM)

I personnaly won't play staff , i ll stick to warhorn (tooooo usefull) , again the changes feel like they were made for wvw or pvp , gonna try HAT in pve again , but i know ill go back to Ham , hfb , and druid soon enough ...

Edited February 10, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[soulknight.9620]

Its playable in its current state, so when patch hits it will be most likely meta/close to meta. The only thing that would be worse on HAT than lets say HAM is that its slightly more complicated. 

Getting access to additionals tab on mag aura transmute is a huge deal since it allows you to either bring more stab than lets say HAM or free up a utility slot to get the same result. 

As for warhorn i tend to disagree. I think staff would be better than wh cause:

1) Wh provides you with 3 sec of boon extention

2) Mighs/fury copy. 

3) some cc

4) water/fire fields. 

Staff nets you with: 

1) more stab,

2) fire/water/ice fields by default

3) some cc

4) superspeed

5) more ress potential with traited geyser

6) decent condi cleanse outside of OL water

7) op healing

8 ) range

Now let me get back to wh. Might/fury copy is not obligatory for a heal support since you will get paired with qdps and like every qdps gets fury on perma basis and might is rarely an issue in any comp (even dps are constantly pumping out 5-8 stacks of might). 

If anet would increse fire OL might application radius a bit it would make it more comfortable to play for sure, but still ok as it is. 

As for 3 sec boon extention, HAT can provide all the necessary boons with enough basic duration to not have to worry about this skill at all. As for quick for example its kinda not ur problem. Let qdps figure out how they get 100% uptime on that. Its their job. Its not like other alac classes help them in any way.  

[the krytan assassin.9235]

I think d/wh and staff will probably fill a different purpose. Staff seems to be the pick for encounters that require alot of heals/stab/cleanse/ranged healing while d/wh seems to be a better pick for bosses that dont meet these criteria. D/wh is definitely the superior pick in terms of might& Fury uptime, boon extension, CC and dps output. 

The biggest limiting factor of staff was imo the lack of boon extension (and therefore sometimes limited alac uptime). Now with pulsing overloads this should be abit easier to maintain. 

 

The only real problem i've had with healing on Tempest was when i accidentally locked myself out of water after overloading and having my "wash the pain away", signet of water and ice elemental all on cd. Still id describe that more as an user error then an inherent problem with the class. 

 

Only thing that remains to be annoying is the lack of radius on your overload fire when playing staff. Although 25 stacks are provided in like 95% of the cases by other group members, that last 5% of the groups can be a real pain in the kitten sometimes. 

[DaKillaOfHell.5907]

I think there might be some sort of misconception.

 

First of all, let's look at the healing professions having actual heal: We got specs like Druid, qHFB, or, for example, HAM and (even though it is a kinda special case) scourge.

 

Druid with seed of life has a strong, HOT-like spell while also providing strong burst with rejunevating tides and lunar impact.

qHFB provides quickness as well as perma prot (-33% damage), almost-perma-resolution (-33% condi damage), regen and that by built-in-rotation, while for druid, that's not necessarily the case. He can also provide HOT as well as burst heal with heal tome.

HAM meanwhile isn't much of a burst healer, but very good for heal over time and providing massive barrier, only second to scourge.

Scourge is not much of a heal in its own meaning, but providing a lot of barrier, as well as decent support abilities, while the biggest advantage is the extremely strong rezzing abilities almost instantly being able to rezz multiple people.

 

Just to say so, HAT falls on far off the other side:

HAT has decent burst heal, and prot and perma-regen. The problem, however, comes with the rotation being the only heal which has to effectively shut himself off the heal in order to provide full alacrity keepup.

This, plus the fact that you barely have any kind of HOT makes HAT only a support-healer, not a full-healer like the ones I mentioned before. HAT has its own good points, but being a full healer is not one of them.

[Nephalem.8921]

3 minutes ago, DaKillaOfHell.5907 said:

I think there might be some sort of misconception.

 

First of all, let's look at the healing professions having actual heal: We got specs like Druid, qHFB, or, for example, HAM and (even though it is a kinda special case) scourge.

 

Druid with seed of life has a strong, HOT-like spell while also providing strong burst with rejunevating tides and lunar impact.

qHFB provides quickness as well as perma prot (-33% damage), almost-perma-resolution (-33% condi damage), regen and that by built-in-rotation, while for druid, that's not necessarily the case. He can also provide HOT as well as burst heal with heal tome.

HAM meanwhile isn't much of a burst healer, but very good for heal over time and providing massive barrier, only second to scourge.

Scourge is not much of a heal in its own meaning, but providing a lot of barrier, as well as decent support abilities, while the biggest advantage is the extremely strong rezzing abilities almost instantly being able to rezz multiple people.

 

Just to say so, HAT falls on far off the other side:

HAT has decent burst heal, and prot and perma-regen. The problem, however, comes with the rotation being the only heal which has to effectively shut himself off the heal in order to provide full alacrity keepup.

This, plus the fact that you barely have any kind of HOT makes HAT only a support-healer, not a full-healer like the ones I mentioned before. HAT has its own good points, but being a full healer is not one of them.

HTemp has water aura, geyser, healing rain, water overload, water globe. Quite a lot of HOT effects actually.

[soulknight.9620]

5 minutes ago, DaKillaOfHell.5907 said:

Druid with seed of life has a strong, HOT-like spell while also providing strong burst with rejunevating tides and lunar impact.

Soothing mist with Soothing power says hi. As for burst: Healing ripple and Evasive arcana says hi again. Not even going to count other means of burst heals like water skills, signet of water, ice elemntal etc. 

9 minutes ago, DaKillaOfHell.5907 said:

qHFB provides quickness as well as perma prot (-33% damage), almost-perma-resolution (-33% condi damage), regen and that by built-in-rotation,

Perma alac, perma prot, regen, vigor, in competent hands 25 might, better condi cleanse and superspeed for staff after the patch. Which is built-in-rotation too. 

12 minutes ago, DaKillaOfHell.5907 said:

Scourge is not much of a heal in its own meaning, but providing a lot of barrier, as well as decent support abilities, while the biggest advantage is the extremely strong rezzing abilities almost instantly being able to rezz multiple people.

Its basically barriers+heals+rez, the boon support is non-existant. HAT is better at healing and can be really good resser with double geyser. 

15 minutes ago, DaKillaOfHell.5907 said:

HAT has decent burst heal, and prot and perma-regen. The problem, however, comes with the rotation being the only heal which has to effectively shut himself off the heal in order to provide full alacrity keepup.

HAT can passively outheal average dmg pressure and is required to go into burst healing when dmg heavy phase occurs. And no, HAT healing is not shut down by pumping out alac via OL, the cast time of OL is around 2.8 secs with quick, and if party struggles to survive 2.8 secs without burst healing, you are better of finding a competent group. You have WatP, you can slot water signet/frost bow, you can summon ice elemental. Although i find myself never using it cause its not needed. 

 

21 minutes ago, DaKillaOfHell.5907 said:

This, plus the fact that you barely have any kind of HOT makes HAT only a support-healer, not a full-healer like the ones I mentioned before. HAT has its own good points, but being a full healer is not one of them.

This is just plain incorrect. See above. 

[zeyeti.8347]

2 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

you are better of finding a competent group.

Thats the whole point , other healers have a carry potential that Hat hasnt , and no one speak about the cluncky way he provides (and will still provide after patch) alacrity , all other classes have build in alacrity + a bonus , rev has increase range on alacrity , engi gain an op skill giving alacrity , prot. , aegis , stab , breasktun (group) + condi cleanse , specter has healing on shadow step

fot Hat it is just alacrity endpoint , no bonus , nothing else 

As for might if you play paired with a qfb or a scrapper , you will most of the time miss some might for your sub , i mean all other classes have multiple might application on a wide range , hat has that but with warhorn only .

I say that cause i tried to play with actual staff trying combo fire blast , Ol fire in the group , even using the fire shout to apply more might , i could see in the boon table i was low on might , while on the other side the hfb was pumping it like crazy , i have players who are scared and have to move constantly out of every Ol fire i do , i can see a net difference while i play other healers , i mean why other healers have it on a 360 range or 600 range , ele has it on a 180 range ?

2 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Soothing mist with Soothing power says hi. As for burst: Healing ripple and Evasive arcana says hi again. Not even going to count other means of burst heals like water skills, signet of water, ice elemntal etc. 

All those healing comes with the same problem , attune to water only proc. , healing on a dodge , hello firebrand has the same every time he dodge regardless the "affinity" you have . If for some reason you Ol water and then go immediately into another attunement for boon uptime , you have "wash the pain away" and "signet of water" thats all , iam not counting on the stupid golem who do what he wants , having the strongest heal of all the game not used because it locks you out off your healing attunement time x2 is kitten  .Now look at all the others 

druid , staff maybe weak , but it can provide good healing while your avatar is on cd ( 7,5 sec vs 14 sec fro Ol water ...) , Hfb with mace has a 1500 healing sec from AA , and burst ammunitions healing with f2 , Ham can heal whenever he wants with medkit , it is weak in term of healing but is available 100% of the time , and not forget the constant barrier your AA and mech gives.

The thing is i really like how the Hat works , but it is , in my regards , way weaker than any other healing class (except healrev )

Adding a full supp. weapon , like they did for hammer damage wise , would be really good , warhorn is good in that regard but the mainhand feels very "vanilla old".

Not having the right to use bastion of elements is really painfull , alacrity should be a low tier trait , like all the other spec have .

i see no advantage playing ele as healer if you have to compare it to all other healers.

as i said i am gonna try it , and i am not gonna try it again right after , as usually ...

We will see if it gets more plays after the patch , but i really doubt it .

Edited February 10, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[soulknight.9620]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

other healers have a carry potential that Hat hasnt

Not true, HAT can easily carry groups even at BS where big heals come in handy. HAT can even prevent a mechanic fail via rebound. 

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

all other classes have build in alacrity + a bonus

Nope, HAM has to trait and build for alac the same way as everyone else. 

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

engi gain an op skill giving alacrity , prot. , aegis , stab , breasktun (group) + condi cleanse

That skill also is ur only stab source so it kinda gimps the usability if stab on demand since u need to spam it for alac uptime. Prot, aegis, breakstun is easily accesible with eye of the storm and aftershock. Stab will be more common with mag aura trans. Condi cleanse is built in too. 

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

As for might if you play paired with a qfb or a scrapper , you will most of the time miss some might for your sub , i mean all other classes have multiple might application on a wide range , hat has that but with warhorn only .

Cant comment on scrapper since i dont actually see a lot of them, but qherald works fine with it, same for qfb (mantra+scepter symbol provides some might) since like i said most of the dps spit out might almost passively i havent been in a single group for the past half a year where i lacked might even when going staff for ranged support. 

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

All those healing comes with the same problem , attune to water only proc. , healing on a dodge , hello firebrand has the same every time he dodge regardless the "affinity" you have . If for some reason you Ol water and then go immediately into another attunement for boon uptime , you have "wash the pain away" and "signet of water" thats all , iam not counting on the stupid golem who do what he wants , having the strongest heal of all the game not used because it locks you out off your healing attunement time x2 is kitten  .Now look at all the others 

Then you need to play HFB. You are complaining at the core mechanic that separates ele from other classes. Ele has built in mechanic called attunements and it has its a perk (more utility) and tradeoffs. You can easily tie water attunement swap between other OL to provide support and proc these buffs. Thats how ele supposed to be played - swap swap swap swap. If you prefer gamestyle like HFB then why play ele? 

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

druid , staff maybe weak , but it can provide good healing while your avatar is on cd ( 7,5 sec vs 14 sec fro Ol water ...) , Hfb with mace has a 1500 healing sec from AA , and burst ammunitions healing with f2 , Ham can heal whenever he wants with medkit , it is weak in term of healing but is available 100% of the time , and not forget the constant barrier your AA and mech gives.

There is rarely any need to OL water. Druid is locked out of the majority of heals even harder than ele since its not just the cd of avatar we are talking about, but also you may find urself on ur axe/wh when heal is needed and thats a weapon swap cd. 

Mace skill is 1.75 sec (0.5 sec first strike, 0.5 sec second, 3/4 third). 

Ham indeed can heal with a kit, but so can ele with perma soothing mist effect. The healing is similar when you put all of the effects together. And his burst heal skills are cd based too just like HATs. Its just a different kind of CD. 

 

[zeyeti.8347]

3 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Mace skill is 1.75 sec (0.5 sec first strike, 0.5 sec second, 3/4 third)

As you said about Ol being on a  2.8 sec with quickness , hfb mace is on a 1 sec with quickness , even more as you are your own source of quickness , if healtemp is so méta , why is it the less healer played , in my opinion it won't change even after the patch .

i am not complaining at the core mechanic i am complaining about why the ele is always need to be hybrid , half of your skills are useless .

if you play Hat with dagger/warhorn , what will you use in dagger skills , D skill 2 water ? and the rest ? mobilty skills ? thats it ! I know all other classes have skills useless depending of their playstyle or role but not quite as much as ele.

same goes for dps . Thats why they need to redesign a whole weapon to have some kind of support in every attunement (not specifically heals) They are actually doing that with staff , but playign with staff and letting down the warhorn feels like too big trade off and take away the few advantages the Hat had in front of other healers.

3 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Ham indeed can heal with a kit, but so can ele with perma soothing mist effect. The healing is similar when you put all of the effects together. And his burst heal skills are cd based too just like HATs. Its just a different kind of CD. 

Another complaint here , soothing mist isnt perma , it goes from a 10 sec duration trough a 7-6 sec duration while you are in water , if you go out of water when it is at 6 secs it will not be perma , thats another thing that need to change soothing mist duration should only start to count only when you go out of water ... compared that to hfb f2 passiv healing share , i know what i will choose.

As for Qfb not a lot of them switch scepter , and same it's a tiny 180 aoe , maybe you play with a static and have your own qherald who can easily maintain 15-20 stacks of might on his own , but all other classes cannot give so much might (i agree on fury though) your static may also be used on how Hat works , but i play with players , like i mentionned , who have the tendency to panic and not stack tight , so i can't rely on Ol fire only to give some might . the question is simple why does ele is the only one giving alacrity trough a  2.8 sec  cast while others are mostly giving it on a 1/2 or 1/4 cast time skills or even instant skills , and not talking about the interruption , you get your 5 sec cd when you get intterupted by miracle with that low cooldown , and if one of your Ol is interrupted , there you go for the 14 sec cd with 0 benefit (maybe 1,5 sec alacrity with the patch...) that being  also means no alacrity , so having your Ol going for 17 sec cd , If you play arcane ... too much trade off for the benefit it has , same complaint goes for might , the boonshare from Ol fire should be at least on a 360 (not the area of damage ofc).

Talking about rebound who is awesome i agree , i largely prefer having an instant rez skill able to revive 5 person.

i have tried every last strike mission cm's with Hat and i can say it is underperforming in comparison with other heal classes , the need of dodge , cast other skills and other mechanic with the speed of the game is very punishing when you have skills with a 2.8 cast time. maybe some of you can , great for you , but why when i see a video of a Hat doing HTCM succeed and everyone in comments say "woah   with a Hat !" feels like playing Hat is putting another challenge on top of the actual challenge.

My initial thoug was bending alacrity to aura , so you can have multiple source of alacrity trough shouts , Ol (with the good trait) , powerfull aura , etc .. Don't get me wrong the patch will be great for ele , it will adress a lot of issue (specially on the alacrity side) but still can't help the feeling that it isnt enough.

Edited February 10, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[soulknight.9620]

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

if healtemp is so méta , why is it the less healer played , in my opinion it won't change even after the patch .

Noone says its meta in current state. The point of this thread was thoughts on the state of HAT AFTER the patch hits. Most complaints about alac will be non-existant after patch hits. 

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

i am not complaining at the core mechanic i am complaining about why the ele is always need to be hybrid , half of your skills are useless .

Because its how it is purposly designed. To be a hybrid with a lot of the skills availible to you. And i personally dont consider them useless at all. All of them have uses in some situations.

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

if you play Hat with dagger/warhorn , what will you use in dagger skills , D skill 2 water ? and the rest ? mobilty skills ? thats it ! I know all other classes have skills useless depending of their playstyle or role but not quite as much as ele.

In water i use, wh4+5 if i need heals, and dagger 3 to pop water fields, and ofc 2 for heals. I dont see a single useless skill here. As for other attunements, you use fire 3 for mobily and damage mitigation, wh 4+5 for might purposes, air 3+4 for good burst of cc, air 5 for vuln stacking, earth 3 for mobility, earth 4 for boon extention. I basically use 90% of my skills. 

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Another complaint here , soothing mist isnt perma , it goes from a 10 sec duration trough a 7-6 sec duration while you are in water , if you go out of water when it is at 6 secs it will not be perma , thats another thing that need to change soothing mist duration should only start to count only when you go out of water ... compared that to hfb f2 passiv healing share , i know what i will choose.

It is perma if you rotate well and have good alac/quick uptime. 

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

the question is simple why does ele is the only one giving alacrity trough a  2.8 sec  cast while others are mostly giving it on a 1/2 or 1/4 cast time skills or even instant skills , and not talking about the interruption , you get your 5 sec cd when you get intterupted by miracle with that low cooldown , and if one of your Ol is interrupted , there you go for the 14 sec cd with 0 benefit (maybe 1,5 sec alacrity with the patch...) that being  also means no alacrity , so having your Ol going for 17 sec cd , If you play arcane ... too much trade off for the benefit it has , same complaint goes for might , the boonshare from Ol fire should be at least on a 360 (not the area of damage ofc).

You can use aegis, stab to help you with OL not being interupted. And even after the patch you will have easier alac application.

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Talking about rebound who is awesome i agree , i largely prefer having an instant rez skill able to revive 5 person.

But why? Its literary more beneficial to not let you team die. 

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

but why when i see a video of a Hat doing HTCM succeed and everyone in comments say "woah   with a Hat !" feels like playing Hat is putting another challenge on top of the actual challenge.

Its not a HAT issue, its an Ele issue. The class has more complex mechanics to work with. Although anet makes them easier and easier with each patch. So i dont get the complains here. 

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

My initial thoug was bending alacrity to aura , so you can have multiple source of alacrity trough shouts , Ol (with the good trait) , powerfull aura , etc .. Don't get me wrong the patch will be great for ele , it will adress a lot of issue (specially on the alacrity side) but still can't help the feeling that it isnt enough.

We need to see how it plays in action. From what i managed to calculate staff will provide easier and more efficient gameplay. And alac changes may address the issue we are having or not. If not, i think anet would add some additional alac to shouts or smtn. Dont know about you, but after what ive seen for past half a year from balance team, im confident they will do a good job eventually. 

[zeyeti.8347]

24 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Dont know about you, but after what ive seen for past half a year from balance team, im confident they will do a good job eventually. 

less confident than you , i still have the banner rework (with 0 skills when grabbed) and the -10% damage for catalyst in the throat , making me always confident that many ppl (even in balance team) in anet team don't know a single thing about their game , the patch seems to be again more oriented trough wvw , pvp for me , having more skills to clean conditions , while in pve you have already freaking lot of condi cleanse and those condi are not often encountrered and can negate the damage with just healing.

As for dagger i talked dagger mainhand , cause hat use more warhorn than dagger offhand in a supp. perspective , so i was talking about the 3 first dagger skills : 

fire ? skill 3 only usefull , i don't care belching flames on a support stuff.

Air ? nothing usefull , fury for you only , (nice for a support ...) , shock aura has no uses cause you don't play with aura share (also show me a raidboss who is impacted on cc bar from shock aura ...) , only use is the 1sec daze from the flip .

Eart ? a projectiles block for 1 sec ? obviously designed for pvp , another dash ...

water ? 1 heal and 1 blast , thats all

And literally all AA useless , if they could add some healing like water staff AA that could also be nice.reminder all other healers have at least 1 AA chain who is usefull , barrier for mech , heal for hfb , heal for druid , heal for healrev , dagger is a whole AA 4 attunement useless for healing/support. At least with previous scepter you could blast some combo and have a decent long range heal , but thats gone too...

And alacrity , while it will adress the first secondes of the fights struggle  , the problem will still be the same , you can ofc use an aegis or a stab , but those are on a cd , why does ele have to go trough such shinanigans while other can simply belch alacrity out with so tiny cast time , alac over 2.8 sec ? great ? if you get interrupted or downed , you are in a good shape , you gave alacrity 3 secs to your group , your Ol goes to his full cd cause you casted it ... and some shouts are not instant , and using those 30 sec cd skills just to pop out ONE secure OL ...

24 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

But why? Its literary more beneficial to not let you team die. 

Cause it is an anticipation skill , if for some reason the people healed themselves while u used Rebound and the 5sec duration runs out , they win an aura ... great ... , skill is only super fun on Sabir where you can let lazy ppl ignore one tornado updraft.

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[soulknight.9620]

5 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

As for dagger i talked dagger mainhand , cause hat use more warhorn than dagger offhand in a supp. perspective , so i was talking about the 3 first dagger skills : 

Fire: an evade+mobility (3rd),

Water: heal (2nd), blast (3rd),

Air: cc (3rd)

Earth: mobility (3rd). 

Name a single more usefull support weapon (mh ofc, dont go for double handed weaps plz). 

5 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

At least with previous scepter you could blast some combo and have a decent long range heal , but thats gone too...

Scepter was worse than dagger in every single way except one ranged heal. Thats it. Fire and lightning was pure dps, water had 1 heal and a dps skill, earth had a 250tough skill (which could skritt up ur tank in raids) and thats all. 

5 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

if you get interrupted or downed , you are in a good shape , you gave alacrity 3 secs to your group , your Ol goes to his full cd cause you casted it ... and some shouts are not instant , and using those 30 sec cd skills just to pop out ONE secure OL ...

You do know that you can change a trait to grant u stab every time u use OL? Sure its a tradeoff, but you can do it. Gw2 is always a "do mechanic, time ur skills correctly" or "invest in some non efficient slack skills/traits". 

5 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Cause it is an anticipation skill , if for some reason the people healed themselves while u used Rebound and the 5sec duration runs out , they win an aura ... great ... , skill is only super fun on Sabir where you can let lazy ppl ignore one tornado updraft.

Like 99% of all of the oneshotting mechanics (or hard hitting ones) can be predicted and reacted to. So this is actually a "learn a mechanic" thing. Even if i use it and group survives its still better than get downtime on 4 people and ress them for 1-3 secs. 

 

[zeyeti.8347]

17 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Fire: an evade+mobility (3rd),

Water: heal (2nd), blast (3rd),

Air: cc (3rd)

Earth: mobility (3rd). 

Name a single more usefull support weapon (mh ofc, dont go for double handed weaps plz). 

No weapon swap on ele so if i have to name another better weapon supp. i have to name two to be on pair with ele , cause ele has no weapon swap , Mace and staff for hfb , heal on auto (availbale 50% of the time) aoe pulsing heal and regen (same cd as duration) , block for you then aegis for allies , for staff , AA useless , great aoe pulsing heal on long range , pulsing heal aoe who pulse speed , not name the 2 last skills as it's a 2mh , btw 50% of the skill you named are for personal gameplay , not helping in any way the others.

17 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

You do know that you can change a trait to grant u stab every time u use OL? Sure its a tradeoff, but you can do it. Gw2 is always a "do mechanic, time ur skills correctly" or "invest in some non efficient slack skills/traits". 

yeah can do that , then i miss vigor uptime , another trade off. I think trading of bastion of elements is alerady an enough trade off to compensate the cluncky way Hat is played.

And scepter was great , just look at how many ppl complained about the change making it a only deeps weapon , we took scepter cause the only long range heal it had , with water signet .

We will see , i know i complain a lot about ele , but thats cause i really like this class , but atm (and even after the pacth) i don't think it will come close to all others healers available , just my point of view.

 

[soulknight.9620]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

No weapon swap on ele so if i have to name another better weapon supp. i have to name two to be on pair with ele , cause ele has no weapon swap , Mace and staff for hfb , heal on auto (availbale 50% of the time) aoe pulsing heal and regen (same cd as duration) , block for you then aegis for allies , for staff , AA useless , great aoe pulsing heal on long range , pulsing heal aoe who pulse speed , not name the 2 last skills as it's a 2mh , btw 50% of the skill you named are for personal gameplay , not helping in any way the others.

The fact that ele has no weapon swap is a debilitating factor, not a beneficial one. So you should compare it to one onehanded weapon because that is the only thing you can actually choose on ele. Staff is a twohanded weapon and ofc it will be better than a main hand weapon. 

Although lets me go along with this and see what these mentioned weapons provide. 

Mace: 1 - small heal (around 1k on a 1.75 sec cd). 2 - symbol that heals around 1k (if traited) +regen, 3 - prot and aegis. 

Staff: 1 - useless auto, 2 - 2k heal and a blast, 3 - swiftness and 1k heal (if traited), 4 - 4.3k heal +might, 5 - light field. 

No mobility, limited boon utility support and no cc. The only usefull skills of mace is 3rd since 2nd is a bit underwhelming and you dont want to auto with hfb since you have far better skills to use. As for staff, sure its better than mh weapon when it comes to healing potential, but as a two handed weapon it underperforms when comparing to d/wh combo since d/wh weapons provide with more support (like boon uptime), cc and decent amount of healing. Dagger water 2 skill provides better healing than mace 1+2 combined and better than staff 2+3 combined. Btw air 2 skill with its self fury can be used to spread fury with wh fire 4. 

Ofc there is also a question: are we counting trait synergies with weapons? Cause staff 3 and mace 2 need to be traited to provide that additional heal. And dagger doesnt. If we actually do not count trait synergies mace and staff are kinda far worse than dagger. 

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

And scepter was great , just look at how many ppl complained about the change making it a only deeps weapon , we took scepter cause the only long range heal it had , with water signet .

You still have water signet. People always complain when something changes for the best or for the worse it quite subjective. Ive played quite a lot with scepter as a hat and i found this weap a bit useless outside of that one heal skill. The synergy was not there. Literary all other skills were useless to hat (aside from might stacking, but you can still do it with d/wh). 

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

We will see , i know i complain a lot about ele , but thats cause i really like this class , but atm (and even after the pacth) i don't think it will come close to all others healers available , just my point of view.

Thats the mindset that actually hurts the state of HAT atm. HAT is good even in its current state, i rarely see HAT underperforming in any fights, and when i actually see it its usually l2p issue same as every other class. Ive seen a lot of bad HFB/HAM/Druid supports, doesnt mean that these builds/specs are bad though. HAT just need some QoL which it is actually getting next patch. 

[zeyeti.8347]

4 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Mace: 1 - small heal (around 1k on a 1.75 sec cd)

Again you have to count quickness in your math , (as you did for overlaods , if i do like you , overloads take 4secs to launch , not 2,8)

and it is not 1000 hp on the last hit , you have +-40% more healing trough rune and sigils and traits , so it's more like 1400 hp every 1.1 secs .

4 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Thats the mindset that actually hurts the state of HAT atm. HAT is good even in its current state, i rarely see HAT underperforming in any fights, and when i actually see it its usually l2p issue same as every other class. Ive seen a lot of bad HFB/HAM/Druid supports, doesnt mean that these builds/specs are bad though. HAT just need some QoL which it is actually getting next patch. 

I agree that i have maybe few l2p issues with it , but we have to take in consideration that Hat is by far the hardest healer to pull out the boons and heals (not to mention lower hp and armor than all others healers , literally), and i see no benefit from taking this hard way , no reward , any way i look i see a far better option than Hat , less complicated and more effective , why arent there any Hat in fractals ? Why are they literally non existent in endgame content (my point of view , i truly see none of them in any endgame content) , ele is always been a hybrid , so he is never at the top at a specific role , only top with weapons designed almost fully to a specific goal (hammer , scepter now , and soon sword for weaver)

 

As mentionned other healers have not a l2p issues (maybe Hfb now , with icd on tomes skills to remind) , Ham is by far the easisest healer of the game , while druid is perfectly simple too , both are efficient and a lot more played than the Hat , because ? cannot fail key boons apllication , belch out might and other boons on a wide range with ease , healing accessible a lot more than a 4 attunement swapping , even the might from Ol fire got yourself in trouble if for any reason you cancel it trough dodging or any other kind of mechanic.

You know the game , so you know how easily the others healers can apply those boons , there is no way the Hat does it with more efficiency .

 

Anyway i am glad to speak with someone who seems to know a lot about ele (especially Hat) , you have good points , but sadly i know that it's not this patch i am gonna give Hat the same run i gave all others healers (even healmech , while i despite this class , i cannot deny it's obviously strong points).

Edited February 12, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[soulknight.9620]

12 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Again you have to count quickness in your math , (as you did for overlaods , if i do like you , overloads take 4secs to launch , not 2,8)

and it is not 1000 hp on the last hit , you have +-40% more healing trough rune and sigils and traits , so it's more like 1400 hp every 1.1 secs .

We are comparing weapons, not builds/classes/elites/traits. So no, that should not be taken into account. 

12 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

I agree that i have maybe few l2p issues with it , but we have to take in consideration that Hat is by far the hardest healer to pull out the boons and heals (not to mention lower hp and armor than all others healers , literally), and i see no benefit from taking this hard way , no reward , any way i look i see a far better option than Hat , less complicated and more effective , why arent there any Hat in fractals ? Why are they literally non existent in endgame content (my point of view , i truly see none of them in any endgame content) , ele is always been a hybrid , so he is never at the top at a specific role , only top with weapons designed almost fully to a specific goal (hammer , scepter now , and soon sword for weaver)

First of all, not all of ur ingame choices should be rewarded. Choosing a class should not be rewarded in any other form than "having fun" and "enjoying the playstyle". You enjoy ele? Then you play hat. You dont? Then you find a spec that suits you better. Thats how every mmorpg (and rpg in general) works. 

Second, hat has its unique uses and benefits compared to other healers. And ive talked about it earlier in this thread, you just ignore it for some reason. You measure HATs effectiveness by comparing it to HFB which is incorrect by default since hfb is not an alac based healer and it provides its support in different form than HAT. Its ok if you do not want to use the options that hat provides you with. It may not be ur cup of tea, but its fundamentaly incorrect to say that hat bring no benefits and no unique mechanics to the table. Im am strictly against making HAT a HFB 2.0. There is a reason all specs are different and they should be different. Btw did you know that you can swap arcane for earth to get a lot more stab output with a minor cost? That way you would surpass ham/druid when it comes to stab uptime. Hat is all about adjusting ur build to the needs. 

About the highlithed part. Its subjective. I find myself to struggle more with druid as a healer. Does it means that druid is far more complicated than HAT? Or does it simply means that i subjectively cant grasp that one specific build for some subjective reasons? Like ive said ive seen some casual HATs doing well in strikes/raids. Same for me, i dont have problems with it. Sure it requires you to push more buttons than HFB/HAM/Druid, but thats because of ele core mechanics (attunements) it will always be this way unless anet destroys the class diversity completely. 

[zeyeti.8347]

Your point of view , but taking earth traitline for the sole purpose to give some stab is a massive waste to me , what trait is usefull as a support in earth ? less damage taken , ok . Barrier for yourself , selfish . cripple area when going to earth ? and sovort . Prot 3 secs when you aura  someone .... massive rework needed in earth really ... so much undertuned traits feeling very old and dusty.

only way i want to play it (if i wanted) is arcane , water , tempest . But thats my taste . But you can't deny that giving might , alacrity ,... on a 2.8 sec pulsing duration , and surely the last tic of alacrity will be more than the others , a thing like 1sec alac each pulse of OL and 3 secs the last one , getting that interrupted really pisses me off , and i don't want to trade more boons sharing (regen + vigor ) just for me to have secured Ol. i prefer largely having my key boons bend to 1/4 sec cast time skills , and as show the % graphics a lot of ppl do like it too that way , seeing tempest is one of the least played spec in the whole game , it came out the same time as druid and tempest is merely a 1.5 playrate / druid 8.5 , and druid lone purpose is heal , he does not have a dps/support build . If no one want to play it (few do , like you) , means the spec has a problem , and i think the patch will not help a lot . Also if for some reason you dont have fury application in your sub ( a lot do now , i know) , you have to take air , for the sole purpose of giving fury ... a whole traitline for fury sharing ... Other healers have no such trade off  , the traitline for those seems to give all key boons and synergize really well  and for hat , i wonder why they let bastion of elements in pve , nobody use that (only on fancy open world builds)

Edited February 13, 2023 by zeyeti.8347