renegade is underpowered; how about cripple on SB2 and remove energy cost from Orders from Above?

[Anonynja.3172]

On 3/17/2023 at 2:10 PM, Eddie.9143 said:

Which is okay on vindi with those insane dodges, and 3 heal spells, but not renegade 

Yeah, 3 utility bars is inherently tough to balance. They slapped Vindi down recently so it's not dominating, but to me it's just bad design. I think it should either have 3 actual legend slots (right now, you dont reset energy going b/w Luxon and Kurzick) and just one weapon set, OR consolidate the legends to one utility bar and lean more into the unique dodge. My simple proposal:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Anonynja/Vindicator_Rework

On 3/17/2023 at 5:14 PM, Eddie.9143 said:

Condi doesn't work well with staff offhand, and when your bow attacks do actually land. You need them to do big damage fast cause ppl will cleanse those condis so fast these days.

Sure it does. Staff is your defensive weapon. It's true you can do better dmg with it on a power build, but I wouldn't say it doesn't work well on condi. I run mace/axe + staff condi herald all the time. Staff is pure defensive utility with CC, condi cleanse, blind, blocks, and a blast finisher. You can alternatively go sword/shield on herald and get a bit of torment on sword from Abyssal Chill trait. Condi renegade can go sword/axe for the CC, evade, and axe4 port for a more offensive alt set. Hammer is a niche pick, but the projectile block does help secure stomps.

[Anonynja.3172]

On 3/17/2023 at 5:25 PM, Shao.7236 said:

People need to bring a shift by pushing new builds against the meta so that we can create a cycle and eventually Renegade will see itself brought back.

Off-meta ftw. I'm having fun with renegade right now. You can get so much bleed damage with a little investment and put all the rest of your build in utility. I run shiro/jalis condi renegade for the mobility and stability. I like Kalla, but her spirits are kind of a joke in pvp, they get pushed around and cleaved down without even being targeted. Mallyx is great too, but you really need the mobility from shiro. Stability is too important in this stunlock meta too, esp when you desperately need to win downstate game against enemy scrappers.

You can get +80% bleed duration with over 1700 condi dmg and +25% bleed dmg. It surprises people losing 30% of their HP a second. You apply bleeding and cover condis often enough that unless someone's got tons of condi cleanse, the pressure stays high. Just stay cognizant of projectile hate and don't waste shots on mesmers while theyre surrounded by pink stuff.

[Eddie.9143]

39 minutes ago, Anonynja.3172 said:

Off-meta ftw. I'm having fun with renegade right now. You can get so much bleed damage with a little investment and put all the rest of your build in utility. I run shiro/jalis condi renegade for the mobility and stability. I like Kalla, but her spirits are kind of a joke in pvp, they get pushed around and cleaved down without even being targeted. Mallyx is great too, but you really need the mobility from shiro. Stability is too important in this stunlock meta too, esp when you desperately need to win downstate game against enemy scrappers.

You can get +80% bleed duration with over 1700 condi dmg and +25% bleed dmg. It surprises people losing 30% of their HP a second. You apply bleeding and cover condis often enough that unless someone's got tons of condi cleanse, the pressure stays high. Just stay cognizant of projectile hate and don't waste shots on mesmers while theyre surrounded by pink stuff.

U running carrion krait or something? I run the same legends right now. Find a lot of my time is spent trying to have the perfect dodges, and saving energy for stunbreaks. Really wish the little bit of alacrity didn't cost 20 energy.

 

I was experimenting with demolisher/undead 

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, Anonynja.3172 said:

Yeah, 3 utility bars is inherently tough to balance.

I don't think it's just that tbh
Comparing skills 1:1 in a vacuum doesn't always mean something's overpowered and in the overall picture it's not overwhelming anymore, but man some of the tooltips Vindi has are nuts

Reaver's Rage is a stunbreak, gives stab, does damage, and can daze up to 5 targets? That's so much on one skill.
No wonder it took a bajillion nerfs to tone Vindi down. You could prolly go through most EoD specs and look at them like that lol

[Infinity.2876]

The root of the problem with renegade in spvp is that most of its condition damage is through torment with movement impairing condis and ccs in non-condi weapons like hammer and off-hand sword. I would suggest something like immob on the second pulse of axe 5 so that torment can tick better if enemies don't cleanse it. (In gw2skills.net it says it pulls in the enemy in the description  but it doesn't have it under control, and I haven't ever seen any pulling when I use it. maybe that could be added as well if it doesn't have it.)

[Anonynja.3172]

On 3/18/2023 at 6:25 PM, Eddie.9143 said:

U running carrion krait or something? I run the same legends right now. Find a lot of my time is spent trying to have the perfect dodges, and saving energy for stunbreaks. Really wish the little bit of alacrity didn't cost 20 energy.

 

I was experimenting with demolisher/undead 

Yep, or sage/krait. And stunlock is my #1 bane playing rev in pvp. I tried the toughness/condi route too with undead runes, but toughness does nothing in the face of condi comps, whereas vitality is always useful. Just trying to make the most of range + bleed to put more energy into kiting and supporting allies, especially with stab for stomps/revives. Use slow & KD to keep melee opponents away so you're not pressured so hard. If you fight like a herald you die immediately, just hang back and disengage quickly, your bleeds are working overtime for you.

On 3/18/2023 at 7:26 PM, Shagie.7612 said:

I don't think it's just that tbh
Comparing skills 1:1 in a vacuum doesn't always mean something's overpowered and in the overall picture it's not overwhelming anymore, but man some of the tooltips Vindi has are nuts

You're right, that's why I said inherently tough to balance, not inherently overpowered. Similar issues elementalist faces with attunements - you have such a big kit, does ANet make each of your 20+ weapon skills relatively weak so you have to spam faster rotations for the same results as other classes, or do you end up superpowered in skilled hands? Revenant was built around having two legends, so usually two heals, two stunbreaks. Having access to a third legend at a time introduced a balance issue that ANet thus far only fixes by adjusting numbers rather than addressing underlying mechanics.

On 3/18/2023 at 7:52 PM, Infinity.2876 said:

The root of the problem with renegade in spvp is that most of its condition damage is through torment with movement impairing condis and ccs in non-condi weapons like hammer and off-hand sword. I would suggest something like immob on the second pulse of axe 5 so that torment can tick better if enemies don't cleanse it. (In gw2skills.net it says it pulls in the enemy in the description  but it doesn't have it under control, and I haven't ever seen any pulling when I use it. maybe that could be added as well if it doesn't have it.)

Condi herald relies on torment, condi renegade is better built to rely on bleed. Look at what its traits and short bow synergize with. Try viewing the burning and torment more like cover conditions for your crazy bleeds.