[PVE] Give alac to scourge and quickness to vindicator

[trunksam.3497]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I would expect absolutely none of these suggestions to happen because there is little motivation for Anet to expand the pool of specs in a role, especially if it requires the spec to be re-designed. 

I don't think they need a re-designed, just little tweeks can do it. Vindicator was a alac before with ventari so going for quick isn't a big change for it.
For scourge it would be the first time it get alac or quick so maybe something gonna be too strong or too weak but i don't think a full re-designed is needed for it too.

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, trunksam.3497 said:

I don't think they need a re-designed, just little tweeks can do it. Vindicator was a alac before with ventari so going for quick isn't a big change for it.
For scourge it would be the first time it get alac or quick so maybe something gonna be too strong or too weak but i don't think a full re-designed is needed for it too.

I know you don't think they need a re-design ... because you probably don't understand that it's unreasonable just to continually tack things on to specs just to give people things they want. 

I mean, sure you can imagine just 'putting Alacrity' on Scourge and quickness on Vindicator ... anyone can. The question is why it should be done and how. I can imagine lots of reasons why it shouldn't be done. I suspect the fact that Anet hasn't done the things you suggest is an indication Anet also might have come to some conclusions about why they shouldn't implement those suggestions.

It would probably benefit you to read the balancing manifesto they put out ... there are strong hints to why specs have (and don't have) things. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[trunksam.3497]

31 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I know you don't think they need a re-design ... because you probably don't understand that it's unreasonable just to continually tack things on to specs just to give people things they want. 

I mean, sure you can imagine just 'putting Alacrity' on Scourge and quickness on Vindicator ... anyone can. The question is why it should be done and how. I can imagine lots of reasons why it shouldn't be done. I suspect the fact that Anet hasn't done the things you suggest is an indication Anet also might have come to some conclusions about why they shouldn't implement those suggestions.

It would probably benefit you to read the balancing manifesto they put out ... there are strong hints to why specs have (and don't have) things. 

Wow, stay calme, i just played like 6000h on rev and done every raid boss, strike boss, even almost all CM in the game and read every manifesto, are you happy now ?.
So Anet delete alac from it cause he give himself quick and double boon on one character isn't really a good idea.
Then vindicator doesn't get buff means healer part of it become almost useless so maybe time to give him something back.
I know that giving him alac would be the best, to balance between :
-Herald quickdps
-Herald quickheal
-Renegade alac condi dps
-Renegade condi
-Vindicator Zerk
-Vindicator alac dps
-Vindicator healalac

But that would mean delete quickness from dps vindicator or give the character a whole modification tour to get alac.
Too much dev time to do that, so not a good idea.
That's why i just ask if they can try giving vindicator a low amount of quickness, to not take the role of herald but to let vindicator heal quick be playable.
If vindicator dps quick isn't possible cause less dps than herald with less powerful boon then it will not be played or less.

For Scourge, adding alacrity is just to make him go into the trinity they try to create.
Healers, support, dps.
Make every possible role become part of that.
they already tell us that was their plan and i just think heal scourge is in a weird state in this plan.
Giving him alac and try to adapt him time to time would be the best to make their "trinity" statement exact and not letting any off-heal revive guy in the middle of the game.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, trunksam.3497 said:

Wow, stay calme,

Don't worry I'm calm. I'm just telling you that you suggestion is not framed correctly to be taken seriously. If you aren't willing to acknowledge tacking things onto the specs does not overload them, that there are reasons to consider why the specs don't already have these things and that a re-design is appropriate to fit them in, there isn't much to talk about. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[trunksam.3497]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Don't worry I'm calm. I'm just telling you that you suggestion is not framed correctly to be taken seriously. If you aren't willing to acknowledge tacking things onto the specs does not overload them and that a re-design is appropriate to fit them in, there isn't much to talk about. 

I don't think it will overload vindicator but i can agree about scourge.
I just think tweak some trait of scourge can make it in a better place than now for some time until they find the time to check it entirely.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, trunksam.3497 said:

I don't think it will overload vindicator but i can agree about scourge.
I just think tweak some trait of scourge can make it in a better place than now for some time until they find the time to check it entirely.

True ... adding things to specs makes them 'better' ... now ask yourself why Anet just doesn't go and hand out the goodies to every spec in the game to make them 'better'. 

[trunksam.3497]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

True ... adding things to specs makes them 'better' ... now ask yourself why Anet just doesn't go and hand out the goodies to every spec in the game to make them 'better'. 

What ?! i don't get what you are trying to say, sorry (english isn't my main language and maybe it doesn't help).
I just say, this proposition is only in pve, for vindicator, it touch a trait not used in end game content, adding quickness to it just gonna make it viable and give vindicator another way to play around it. If it's low enought alac, it will be played only with 100% concentration so healer only.
The vindicator heal isn't even playable in pve actually, so it's juste gonna make it maximum playable and in worst case, it's not gonna be play at all.
I just think it's sad to get a spec with half skill and trait for heal and boon without giving him the ability to be played like that in pve.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, trunksam.3497 said:

What ?! i don't get what you are trying to say, sorry (english isn't my main language and maybe it doesn't help).
I just say, this proposition is only in pve, for vindicator, it touch a trait not used in end game content, adding quickness to it just gonna make it viable and give vindicator another way to play around it. If it's low enought alac, it will be played only with 100% concentration so healer only.
The vindicator heal isn't even playable in pve actually, so it's juste gonna make it maximum playable and in worst case, it's not gonna be play at all.
I just think it's sad to get a spec with half skill and trait for heal and boon without giving him the ability to be played like that in pve.

What I'm telling you is that you haven't considered the fact that there is a reason Anet hasn't already given these specs the things you are suggesting they get. 

[trunksam.3497]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

What I'm telling you is that you haven't considered the fact that there is a reason Anet hasn't already given these specs the things you are suggesting they get. 

i just think they doesn't care at all about vindicator heal.
It work as a dps for now and they focus on rework things with a lot more change needed. (like chrono)

[trunksam.3497]

And i just want to make a post to say to them "hey, try it ! make it live, if it's bad, just patch it back."

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, trunksam.3497 said:

i just think they doesn't care at all about vindicator heal.

I think that's true actually ... because they don't need to care about it. It's not a problem if the game doesn't have Vindicator heal build for PVE teams. Maybe they don't WANT it to have that role in PVE. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[trunksam.3497]

it's not a problem for them, but they might be people like me wanting it to be playable, even if it's 10 people, it's still 10 people hapiness taken away.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, trunksam.3497 said:

it's not a problem for them, but they might be people like me wanting it to be playable, even if it's 10 people, it's still 10 people hapiness taken away.

Anet can't make the game cater to individuals. There is balance to consider, which is why design restrictions exist in the first place. You can't ask Anet to reasonably ignore their design philosophy just because you want to play heal Vindicator. 

[trunksam.3497]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Anet can't make the game cater to individuals. There is balance to consider, which is why design restrictions exist in the first place. You can't ask Anet to reasonably ignore their design philosophy just because you want to play heal Vindicator. 

i don't want them to ignore their design philosophy, i just want them to try it even for a day. (it's one boon add to one trait) if it doesn't work, just say so and revert it.

[trunksam.3497]

(they had a elementalist with 120k dmg for more than a week, it cannot be worse)

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, trunksam.3497 said:

i don't want them to ignore their design philosophy, i just want them to try it even for a day. (it's one boon add to one trait) if it doesn't work, just say so and revert it.

That's an unreasonable request. We all know that's not how things work (well, at least SOME of us know that)

[trunksam.3497]

if they had a public server test or show/tell what they try, at least, that would be great.
But for now we doesn't even know if it's gonna change in 10 years.
Having a half healing spec, doesn't heal. it's really bad.
And heal scourge isn't a heal, isn't a support, isn't a dps.
While they state that now they want a trinity with healer, support and dps.
He's a bug in the game

[trunksam.3497]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's an unreasonable request. We all know that's not how things work (well, at least SOME of us know that)

I know what you are saying but this place is here for sharing feedback.
I just want to give my feedback.
If it's useless, then they gonna just pass by and do nothing.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, trunksam.3497 said:

if they had a public server test or show/tell what they try, at least, that would be great.
But for now we doesn't even know if it's gonna change in 10 years.
Having a half healing spec, doesn't heal. it's really bad.
And heal scourge isn't a heal, isn't a support, isn't a dps.
While they state that now they want a trinity with healer, support and dps.
He's a bug in the game

Yup it would be ... but we don't and likely won't. That's not a reason for Anet to implement changes to the game 'for a day' so people can see how their suggestions work. I think you haven't considered that changes are not primarily introduced to the game because people 'like' them in the first place. 

Scourge isn't a 'bug' in the game either. It's available for people to play it if they want to. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[trunksam.3497]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup it would be ... but we don't and likely won't. That's not a reason for Anet to implement changes to the game 'for a day' so people can see if they like their ideas or not. I think you haven't considered that changes are not primarily introduced to the game because people 'like' them in the first place. 

Yes, that's true but i don't think argue about that gonna change anything about this post.
I think it's good for them to get those post, if they don't look at it, it's not a problem.
I just don't get why some people are negative in a feedback forum where devs only have choice to judge it.
It's cool to give feedback to help and gives ideas (they don't have every idea, they don't test everything, it's literaly impossible).
but if we can give even 1/100 of a good feedback to help them, that's cool. it's the objective of a forum after all.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, trunksam.3497 said:

I just don't get why some people are negative in a feedback forum where devs only have choice to judge it.

It's not hard to understand why some people think suggestions are bad and are willing to discuss that with the people that think they are good. 

Just like you want your suggestion to be considered because you think it's good ... other people don't and that's exactly what kind of discussion the forums are about. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[RenneBright.2473]

1 hour ago, trunksam.3497 said:

it's not a problem for them, but they might be people like me wanting it to be playable, even if it's 10 people, it's still 10 people hapiness taken away.

You just don't want to understand that ANet doesn't release balance patches because a tiny number of people want to play Quick Vindicator, or play Heal Scourge "because they don't like Druid or Herald" (which is btw a subjective, biased opinion). Nobody forced you to play Druid as far as I'm concerned. Support patching took place last year. Just because you want this toy to play with on a whim, doesn't mean you'll get it. It's as simple as that.

There is no point copying Druid into the Scourge, besides fulfilling your whim "because you don't like it".

 

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not hard to understand why some people think suggestions are bad and are willing to discuss that with the people that think they are good. 

Just like you want your suggestion to be considered because you think it's good ... other people don't and that's exactly what kind of discussion the forums are about. 

The problem is that he doesn't understand that the point of giving feedbacks is also to debate about it. He has failed to provide any convincing reasons/arguments to add quickness to Vindi or Alac to Scourge (besides the "because I want it and I don't like Druid" etc.) after I gave him my arguments of why there isn't really any point in doing that. He has just been looking to impose his set of values onto others, without understanding in the first place what makes a healer viable in a raid/fractal comp (only looking at quickness or alac). It wasn't about actual support competitivity but mostly to fulfill his whims pretty much.

 

1 hour ago, trunksam.3497 said:

it's not a problem for them, but they might be people like me wanting it to be playable, even if it's 10 people, it's still 10 people hapiness taken away.

Neither me, Obtena, ANet or anyone else have to accommodate to your sense of "fun" (especially when there is no rational basis, and Vindi/Scourge aren't the only playable specs out there).

 

1 hour ago, trunksam.3497 said:

i don't want them to ignore their design philosophy, i just want them to try it even for a day. (it's one boon add to one trait) if it doesn't work, just say so and revert it.

For someone who claims to have 6k hours on Rev (congrats for being an OTP btw), you certainly don't understand that the healer's role isn't to give quickness or alac only (on top of the healing). There was also no reason for you to get mad in your post about it there. The traits are also not here exclusively for the PvE mode (let alone the raid/fractal builds). 

[trunksam.3497]

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

He has failed to provide any convincing reasons/arguments to add quickness to Vindi or Alac to Scourge

Already said, it's anet phylosophie to give alac or quick to healers.
If a healer doesn't get alac or quick, it's not a healer (in pve).
So if they made half a spec about healing, give him alac then delete alac, it's normal to get something différent to compensate.
Imagine tomorrow they delete alac from all ranger would you be happy ? no, of course no !

 

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

You just don't want to understand that ANet doesn't release balance patches because a tiny number of people want to play Quick Vindicator, or play Heal Scourge "because they don't like Druid or Herald"

Anet non stop made patches because 1% of player base do this or that. You really think there's that mutch Reaper dps now ?! And they up him in next patch.

 

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

Nobody forced you to play Druid as far as I'm concerned.

Yes and i will not play it, i dislike it and play tempest heal if i need to play alac heal.

 

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

after I gave him my arguments of why there isn't really any point in doing that

You said, scourge is not powerful as a healer, then saying he doesn't need a buff.. your arguments isn't event existant.

 

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

He has just been looking to impose his set of values onto others

No, i just post a forum post, to get feedback, see what people think can be done about hscg and heal vindicator cause they need to be fix in pve and my statement will never change because it's true. they have a lot of thing to be healers but can't do it properly. it's just a waste.

 

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

without understanding in the first place what makes a healer viable in a raid/fractal comp

Boon duration, condition cleans, stab, aegis, control. A good healer is a multy task healer. I don't ask for hscg to be a "good" healer, i just want it to be in the case "healer" same for the vindicator.

 

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

It wasn't about actual support competitivity but mostly to fulfill his whims pretty much

Of course it's not about support competitivity, i don't care about which support is the best of "whatever", a quick heal, is a quick heal, i don't care about "hfb give more this" "herald give more that", at the end, you just need a quick heal to get your boons and satisfy end game player to done content doable even with 7k dps. so i don't care. you can have your competitivity, i will not join this type of gameplay anymore. I don't even have arcdps anymore and it feels great to don't care and just do some content without checking if this or this guy do his job 100% uptime.

 

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

Neither me, Obtena, ANet or anyone else have to accommodate to your sense of "fun" (especially when there is no rational basis, and Vindi/Scourge aren't the only playable specs out there).

Surely, but it will always be great to get the choice to play the classe you like and not be gated because their looking for alac and you play warrior. (just a way to describe my point but i know you gonna use that out of context)

 

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

There was also no reason for you to get mad in your post about it there. The traits are also not here exclusively for the PvE mode (let alone the raid/fractal builds). 

That's why they make traits with different effect for pvp and mcm and i will never say anything about those game modes, i don't play them, so i don't have to say anything about those.

 

50 minutes ago, RenneBright.2473 said:

For someone who claims to have 6k hours on Rev (congrats for being an OTP btw), you certainly don't understand that the healer's role isn't to give quickness or alac only (on top of the healing).

Thanks, half play time on rev, and for the healer role, i already answer above.

Edited April 21, 2023 by trunksam.3497

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

It might be better if we had a third exclusive boon so each elite spec could bring something unique.

[Batalix.2873]

Gonna say I fundamentally disagree with alac on Scourge.

 

Don't care if it would make it more "viable". Don't care if alac and quickness are warping the game and espec design.

 

There is nothing about Scourge as a concept that syncs with alacrity or quickness. It's bad enough that we have these boons tacked on to things like Herald facets, Ranger Spirits, and Specter wells without making any flavorful sense.