Support Scourge Rework? My Take: Start with Blood Magic

[FalsePromises.6398]

As someone who's a fan of scourge, it kinda hurt to see the patch preview try to duct tape on alacrity in a rather awkward and problematic way that inadvertently bit a chunk out of every existing scourge style, if not outright hamstringing them. I wanted to share my ideas on buffing scourge support in a more holistic way, by building up the core of blood magic a bit better first, and altering some skills and traits that are opportunities in waiting. I also wanted to build up thematic identities around self-bleeding, regeneration, and might in such a way that it could synergize with and expand on existing styles. 

Weapon Skills

• Life Siphon: This skill now applies bleeding to yourself on activation. 
• Locust Swarm: This skill now shares its swiftness to allies in 600 radius. Because really, why not? 
• Oppressive Collapse: This skill now applies might in a radius around you, instead of in a radius around your target. This dodges issues in battles where an enemy's hitbox is larger than the skill's radius around the target, or the target is in a damaging field or location allies can't reach or stand in. 

Blood Magic

• Mark of Evasion: This trait is replaced by Blood for Blood. 
• Blood for Blood: Summon a Lesser Mark of Blood at your location when you apply bleeding to yourself. Mark of Blood and Lesser Mark of Blood can now be triggered by allies (including yourself) and additionally heal allies in their radius for a small amount when activated. Mark of Blood heals twice as much as Lesser Mark of Blood. 
• Banshee's Wail: This trait additionally applies regeneration to allies within 360 radius every 2 seconds during Locust Swarm. Applying regeneration to an ally also applies 2 stacks of might for 12 seconds (3 stacks of might for 5 seconds in competitive). 
• Last Rites: This trait additionally makes applying regeneration to targets under 50% health heal a small amount. 

Scourge

• Trail of Anguish: This skill additionally applies a stack of stability in 360 radius on activation (PvE only). This is purely so the skill is more usable in PvE group content, and you don't need to run around inside your stack to apply the stability. 
• Abrasive Grit: This trait additionally makes casting Nefarious Favor grant regeneration to 5 nearby allies in 360 radius. This triggers only around you, not at shade locations. 
• Desert Empowerment: This trait additionally makes casting Sand Cascade grant protection to 5 nearby allies within 360 radius. This triggers only around you, not at shade locations. 
• Sand Savant: This trait additionally makes entering shroud grant alacrity for 4 seconds to 5 nearby allies. Applying regeneration to an ally also applies alacrity for 1.5 seconds. 

With Mark of Blood and Mark of Evasion changes through Blood for Blood, I wanted to grant more support capability to the necromancer arsenal and accentuate self-bleeding as a theme, seeing as it remains in a good handful of dagger and corruption skills. I also wanted more healing from staff's Mark of Blood to separate it from dagger's Lesser Marks of Blood gained from the new trait. The changes to Locust Swarm and Banshee's Wail were with intent to build up the might aspects outside of Blood is Power and reward compounding aggression in the dagger/warhorn kit in a supportive, buffing way. With Last Rites, I wanted to build on necromancer's identity of keeping allies from dying, rather than create an unconditionally strong healer. Adding a health threshold to this trait also makes it impossible to abuse with Blood Bank, and this threshold can be raised in PvE if support necromancers wind up needing the healing. 

In the scourge line, I aimed to add the last bit of boons a support scourge would need, as well as a little more regeneration application, topped off with tying alacrity to regeneration and shroud with limited target counts, separate from the shade skills themselves. This dodges the issues posed by putting alacrity on barrier applications, allowing scourge to save those for key moments instead of being forced to use weaker versions passively at all times, and negating any need to rethink scourge shade coverage. Also important to note: I put alacrity on Sand Savant on purpose, since one of the biggest uses of Sand Savant is to make your shades easier to stand in for your allies, so you can actually land supportive effects on them.

I wanted to share my idea in hopes of getting more discussion going on alternatives to the current proposed changes, seeing as they leave scourge with a little bit of a raw deal in many categories. What's everyone else's thoughts on a rework as such, or does anyone have any different ideas that may look better? 

Edited June 18, 2023 by FalsePromises.6398

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I like the sinister ways your mind works.

Nothing will make your allies run faster than a swarm of locusts chasing them. On top of that throw in regeneration so they don't get devoured by your locusts too soon, making the run for their lives more entertaining!

[FalsePromises.6398]

21 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

I like the sinister ways your mind works.

Nothing will make your allies run faster than a swarm of locusts chasing them. On top of that throw in regeneration so they don't get devoured by your locusts too soon, making the run for their lives more entertaining!

It's actually much simpler: my allies are my locusts. The real Locust Swarm is the friends we made along the way ❤️ 

[wolfyrik.2017]

I've long wanted a rework to blood magic so that it includes....you know, blood, bleeding. So you get a like from me.

[FalsePromises.6398]

51 minutes ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

I've long wanted a rework to blood magic so that it includes....you know, blood, bleeding. So you get a like from me.

I realized after making the post I'd also like to see some synergy with bleeding application in blood magic too, in case an alacrity model based around regeneration obligates alacrity dps builds to take blood magic, incurring a sizable dps loss from giving up one of their damage lines. Maybe things like Blood Bond increasing bleeding damage or granting a strike/total damage modifier against bleeding enemies, because condition damage on necromancer is already super catered-to while power has rather weak infrastructure outside of reaper.

Optimally, one of the other blood magic grandmasters should become or gain a potent damage gimmick to counterbalance transfusion, so not every necromancer that picks blood magic for alacrity support takes transfusion too, at least in PvE. Maybe something like a grandmaster that modifies the Vampiric minor trait to apply bleeding, but increases its internal cooldown, or applying bleeding siphons a small amount of health (like Predator's Cunning but much lower numbers). 

Ultimately I'd like to see blood magic pan out a bit like elementalist's water trait line, where it's most definitely a support line but it still can offer noteworthy damage options. 

[Pooh.6897]

I always get extremely nervous when people start to propose changes for MH dagger and it almost always comes down to adding a bleed one way or another. I genuinely think this is a bad idea, because MH dagger is *not* a condi-weapon. It’s supposed to be the ‘vampire’-weapon and utilize lifesteal, which inherently is power-based.

aside from that part, I do think you’re onto something here. Lifesteal cant crit, and thus a power-focused support spec using zealot-gear could actually work very well. Lifesteal damage scales with power, lifesteal healing scales with healing power. Barrier also scales with healing power, as does regeneration. So a power-based support necro that used barrier, regeneration and lifesteal would be perfect and be fantastic. Then they could couple it with spite, get the bonus power from might application and actually have a solid power-focused support necro. Then if they add boon application to blood magic it wouldn’t just be scourge that gets a benefit out of this build, but it would open the door for the other especs as well. I can see harbinger work as well, and mayhaps a support reaper could also be achieved. But it’d all start with blood magic being able to provide these boons, and in that I fully support your idea.

edit: in case people start pointing at dark pact, the only reason that skill applies bleeding is for life siphon. As scourge you can convert the bleed on yourself to vigor and proc more marks of blood, and the bleed on the enemy can be used to (almost) proc blood bond, which is the vampire-themed themed skill in that row

Edited June 21, 2023 by Darth Pooh.5638

[The Boz.2038]

I like a lot of what you did, except the self-bleed and self-bleed-triggered effects. We need to step away from those, especially for the non-condi weapon... unless you really want to make dagger the melee condi weapon. Still dislike how that trait *needs* corruption as another trait to squeeze out the most of it.

[FalsePromises.6398]

On 6/21/2023 at 7:29 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

I like a lot of what you did, except the self-bleed and self-bleed-triggered effects. We need to step away from those, especially for the non-condi weapon... unless you really want to make dagger the melee condi weapon. Still dislike how that trait *needs* corruption as another trait to squeeze out the most of it.

I wanted to do something with self bleed because dagger (that self bleeds) and Blood is Power (which also self bleeds) seem to always wind up in a healscourge setup, and you don't need to run any curses or corruption traits to get those. While those conditions can be used to transfer extra damage when you're a condition build, they seem vestigial and awkward if you're a support... so I wanted to add some support streamlining to them. Ultimately, most support scourges or blood scourges are running lots of vitality and have lots of cleanses by default, so self-bleeding shouldn't be an issue, especially since it doesn't scale to deal any real damage to you either. 

Most importantly, the plentiful sources of regen aim to make you not rely on any particular source, so you won't need to stack corruption skills nor take corruption traits when alacrity (via Sand Savant, as proposed) is your aim. I made sure to add alacrity on entering shroud on that skill too to diversify the sources of alacrity, and allow styles that didn't lean super heavily into regeneration application. Multiple avenues for a boon role is good. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by FalsePromises.6398

[FalsePromises.6398]

On 6/21/2023 at 7:23 AM, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

I always get extremely nervous when people start to propose changes for MH dagger and it almost always comes down to adding a bleed one way or another. I genuinely think this is a bad idea, because MH dagger is *not* a condi-weapon. It’s supposed to be the ‘vampire’-weapon and utilize lifesteal, which inherently is power-based.

aside from that part, I do think you’re onto something here. Lifesteal cant crit, and thus a power-focused support spec using zealot-gear could actually work very well. Lifesteal damage scales with power, lifesteal healing scales with healing power. Barrier also scales with healing power, as does regeneration. So a power-based support necro that used barrier, regeneration and lifesteal would be perfect and be fantastic. Then they could couple it with spite, get the bonus power from might application and actually have a solid power-focused support necro. Then if they add boon application to blood magic it wouldn’t just be scourge that gets a benefit out of this build, but it would open the door for the other especs as well. I can see harbinger work as well, and mayhaps a support reaper could also be achieved. But it’d all start with blood magic being able to provide these boons, and in that I fully support your idea.

edit: in case people start pointing at dark pact, the only reason that skill applies bleeding is for life siphon. As scourge you can convert the bleed on yourself to vigor and proc more marks of blood, and the bleed on the enemy can be used to (almost) proc blood bond, which is the vampire-themed themed skill in that row

The goal of the extra bleeding on dagger isn't to enhance dagger as a condition damage weapon but rather as a support weapon. The intent is self-bleeding triggering Marks of Blood on you, with Marks of Blood serving to heal allies in their radius with the Blood for Blood trait and (with Banshee's Wail changes) grant ramping might as well. The angle is for an aggressive, compounding, close range boon support that doesn't focus on blood as a means of damage but rather as a means of triggering other effects. 

As for wanting boon application in blood magic, I proposed might on regeneration applications in Banshee's Wail not just to cater to dedicated supports but also power dps supports for competitive in this design, specifically that aggressive style with dagger/warhorn where they lock down a target with Dark Pact and then go in for some pain with Life Siphon and Locust Swarm. Granting this combo area might application feeds into allies taking advantage of the opportunity as well, which may play heavily into harbinger given their brutal crowd control and area buffs. Hard to say what this might spell for reaper, since they tend to benefit from longer duration might and don't have as much leeway weapon, build, or utility wise. 

I must say though, I don't see this creating something like a zealot build. It's something you kinda have to lean fully into in either direction, either power or healing and boon duration. In my experience, a healer necro without vitality tends to get swamped when they sacrifice counter-pressure... unless you're talking WvW which is out of my areas of experience. 

[Pooh.6897]

2 hours ago, FalsePromises.6398 said:

The goal of the extra bleeding on dagger isn't to enhance dagger as a condition damage weapon but rather as a support weapon. The intent is self-bleeding triggering Marks of Blood on you, with Marks of Blood serving to heal allies in their radius with the Blood for Blood trait and (with Banshee's Wail changes) grant ramping might as well. The angle is for an aggressive, compounding, close range boon support that doesn't focus on blood as a means of damage but rather as a means of triggering other effects.

I really like the way you think when it comes to turning MH dagger into a more aggressive, tanky/brawler kind of weapon. The idea of triggering wells of blood is interesting, but what about this: Make it so the AA of MH dagger apply Marks of Vampirism. Yes, I'm talking about the Marks of Vampirism that Blood Bond gives and Signet of Vampirism. Instead of utilizing a damaging condition as a tool, it could stay more true to its power-nature by leaning into life stealing to deal damage, get sustain and heal allies. You could pick Zealot if DPS is more important, or Harrier for the concentration. Our ideas could also be combined and with Harrier gear you could end up with a very solid support necro that's centered around the fantasy of a life-stealing vampire that uses blood to sustain themselves and allies, which seems very appropriate for necro in general and blood magic specifically.

I do think your idea works better for blood magic than the current Mark of Evasion. I've always found it a bit silly that support necro's suddenly have to dodge around to apply regen. Traditionally speaking, necro is a very immobile class, so to suddenly require dodging around to do stuff seems a bit out of tune. It could also be described as a 'fun twist', but imo if you need to sacrifice your dodges of all things that's just a waste of evade-frames. The classes that do have healing tied to moving around are generally speaking much more mobile by their very nature.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Darth Pooh.5638

[BadLuck.8456]

While what you wrote up is certainly better than what we have right now, you may want to consider how dps/alac scourge could play. I don't think dps scourge would have a lot of ways to apply regen and requiring the blood traitline would probably drop scourge dps too low. Though new well of blood is 6 pulses of regen as well.

Honestly I think having sand savant be the alac trait and having boons granted from the necro and not the shades are the biggest things that anet needs to consider right now.

[FalsePromises.6398]

1 hour ago, BadLuck.8456 said:

While what you wrote up is certainly better than what we have right now, you may want to consider how dps/alac scourge could play. I don't think dps scourge would have a lot of ways to apply regen and requiring the blood traitline would probably drop scourge dps too low. Though new well of blood is 6 pulses of regen as well.

Honestly I think having sand savant be the alac trait and having boons granted from the necro and not the shades are the biggest things that anet needs to consider right now.

I'm definitely wanting to enhance alacrity dps scourge, I replied to someone else up there with some thoughts on adding more bleeding damage to Blood Magic to reinforce that style. 

On 6/20/2023 at 4:35 AM, FalsePromises.6398 said:

I realized after making the post I'd also like to see some synergy with bleeding application in blood magic too, in case an alacrity model based around regeneration obligates alacrity dps builds to take blood magic, incurring a sizable dps loss from giving up one of their damage lines. Maybe things like Blood Bond increasing bleeding damage or granting a strike/total damage modifier against bleeding enemies, because condition damage on necromancer is already super catered-to while power has rather weak infrastructure outside of reaper.

Optimally, one of the other blood magic grandmasters should become or gain a potent damage gimmick to counterbalance transfusion, so not every necromancer that picks blood magic for alacrity support takes transfusion too, at least in PvE. Maybe something like a grandmaster that modifies the Vampiric minor trait to apply bleeding, but increases its internal cooldown, or applying bleeding siphons a small amount of health (like Predator's Cunning but much lower numbers). 

Ultimately I'd like to see blood magic pan out a bit like elementalist's water trait line, where it's most definitely a support line but it still can offer noteworthy damage options. 

I partially wanted to build on bleeding in Blood Magic to make Curses line (which has a good amount of passive bleeding) a little more valuable too, and let Blood Magic have a little more thematic resonance with other lines. 

[FalsePromises.6398]

9 hours ago, Darth Pooh.5638 said:

I really like the way you think when it comes to turning MH dagger into a more aggressive, tanky/brawler kind of weapon. The idea of triggering wells of blood is interesting, but what about this: Make it so the AA of MH dagger apply Marks of Vampirism. Yes, I'm talking about the Marks of Vampirism that Blood Bond gives and Signet of Vampirism. Instead of utilizing a damaging condition as a tool, it could stay more true to its power-nature by leaning into life stealing to deal damage, get sustain and heal allies. You could pick Zealot if DPS is more important, or Harrier for the concentration. Our ideas could also be combined and with Harrier gear you could end up with a very solid support necro that's centered around the fantasy of a life-stealing vampire that uses blood to sustain themselves and allies, which seems very appropriate for necro in general and blood magic specifically.

I do think your idea works better for blood magic than the current Mark of Evasion. I've always found it a bit silly that support necro's suddenly have to dodge around to apply regen. Traditionally speaking, necro is a very immobile class, so to suddenly require dodging around to do stuff seems a bit out of tune. It could also be described as a 'fun twist', but imo if you need to sacrifice your dodges of all things that's just a waste of evade-frames. The classes that do have healing tied to moving around are generally speaking much more mobile by their very nature.

I was wanting to expand on Blood Magic with extra siphon buff effects, but I kinda lean against it because it would encounter the same issues as Ashes of the Just, or I'm pretty sure there was another issue where unique debuffs against world bosses would start to break... am I thinking OG Deathly Chill? It just seems like in the history of the game, unique damage-oriented buffs applied to allies or on enemies never seem to end well and tend to clash in large scale content. I want to cater to the emaciated power necro infrastructure as much as the next guy (probably more) but I just don't know if siphons are the way to go about it. 

I could definitely see Blood Bond reworked to add extra procs on dagger auto chain third strikes though. It would still work as-is given dagger would have access to Lesser Marks of Blood for enough bleeding stacks to trigger the trait, but it would be interesting to see that third dagger strike maybe apply four stacks (that the strike itself won't consume) so allies can get a little sip of your siphons, or so you really want to encourage ally-aid when fighting. I still want to build around teamplay with dagger and Blood Magic.

Maybe an enhancement to Signet of Vamprism itself into something more useful to enhance damage and siphons would work better? Like, turning the passive into 100-200% increase in siphon damage when running that signet? Would do good to bolster a support scourge's arsenal, so they could pick Well of Blood when they need revives, Sand Flare when they need high on-demand barrier, and Signet of Vampirism for slight damage enhancement. Could also aid the damage of those jank siphoning offhand skills like Locust Swarm and Soul Grasp. 

[Sansania.8569]

Thoughts on Blood Magic having a trait that when you apply bleed to an enemy gain a stacking buff onself that slowly bleedself but cant be cleansed while healing allies in an pbaoe. The idea of making it a buff is that if its just bleed that will just be constantly cleansed by ourselves and allies.

[FalsePromises.6398]

On 6/27/2023 at 11:16 PM, Sansania.8569 said:

Thoughts on Blood Magic having a trait that when you apply bleed to an enemy gain a stacking buff onself that slowly bleedself but cant be cleansed while healing allies in an pbaoe. The idea of making it a buff is that if its just bleed that will just be constantly cleansed by ourselves and allies.

Sounds interersting, but I don't know about a constant health draining debuff. That would make it less usable with something like Harbinger, where you already have health penalties (or just less usable in general since necromancer heals kinda suck). Something that might be really interesting is if it were more like, for every stack of bleed you apply on yourself, gain a static bonus of some sort that stacks up to 5 times for a lengthy duration so it's consistent, maybe like 25-30 seconds. Something like +5% bleeding damage per stack, or +5% outgoing healing per stack, or maybe +15% damage dealt from siphon attacks, etc. That way you can tie buffs to bleeding stacks without needing to avoid cleanses. 

Lowkey I wish they did something similar with harbinger blight, like instead of tying the damage buffs and regen from the first column and minor traits to blight directly (which makes your damage mods inconsistent and your regeneration random when blight fluctuates in rotations), they grant a 25 second buff that wraps up all the traited positive effects of blight and isn't removed when you lose blight, so your benefits are more consistent. Not like they're huge nowadays anyway, Septic Corruption is only like 6.25% condition damage max, but the regen might be nice to have more consistently I guess? 

Edited July 2, 2023 by FalsePromises.6398