ANET listen to me suggestion for alac mirage

[Valfore.8416]

To fix alac mirage and to deal with staxe situation I was suggesting the middle trait line “mirror axes” but be “mirror weapon” where the main hand or the two hand when switching weapon set…if it is the same weapon… will give bonus effects ie. staff/staff will give alac after gaining mirage cloak (from self not bound by clones and doesn’t need to attack) while equipping axe/pistol & torch to give extra flying seeking axes from axe skills(does not require two axes but if the players want to sure). Cause their main concern is Staxe build where they give alac and big dmg, now they can’t give alac and get big damage at the same time. Maybe give the alac 3.5 or back to 4 seconds so we can take an extra utility skill in place of crystal sand if needed.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Valfore.8416
Clarity

[Roadkizzle.2157]

I think the better idea would be to move the Alac providing to the Dune Cloak ability.

 

Keep the DPS trait of the Clone Ambush separate from the support trait of Dune Cloak.

That would let both Axe and Staff Mirages generate Alac but they'd have to trade some DPS for it.

And Alac wouldn't be dependent on clones or having a target.

It just may need some look into how it applies Might then because you won't have Winds of Chaos clones and Alac together.

[Valfore.8416]

That would be nice but we get a lot of our damage from our clones due to IH and we don’t do like mega dmg already for staff/staff build and if we lose our clones doing chaos vortex our dmg will plummet severely unless they mega buff the staff dmg to make up for it. But if they do then it would mega buff the dmg of just a pure DPS build but they want staff to be more of a support weapon.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, Valfore.8416 said:

That would be nice but we get a lot of our damage from our clones due to IH and we don’t do like mega dmg already for staff/staff build and if we lose our clones doing chaos vortex our dmg will plummet severely unless they mega buff the staff dmg to make up for it. But if they do then it would mega buff the dmg of just a pure DPS build but they want staff to be more of a support weapon.

That's exactly my point.

Right now the Mirage Support biggest trait is the same as the Mirages biggest DPS trait.

 

IH is doing both DPS and Support.

It's impossible to balance because it's to powerful for the class to provide every boon possible while still being top DPS.

But if you move the Support trait to Dune Cloak then you can work to make sure IH is powerful enough to make the Mirage do good DPS but also have the option to play Mirage as a support class by swapping the GM trait. 

Axe Alac DPS can still exist but it won't be as powerful as if you have an IH DPS build.

[Valfore.8416]

Ahhhh I see where you’re coming from. What would you suggest for the changes to make sure alac mirage would still bench around the same? Cause we are still an offensive support build so we kinda need DPS unlesssss they make it into a heal alac class instead?

Edited June 21, 2023 by Valfore.8416

[Roadkizzle.2157]

Mirage is easier than others to balance the DPS around.

Axe and Greatsword are DPS weapons for Mirage. Staff can still be a good support weapon.

But with Mirage the trait IH directly controls how much damage the clones do.

So you can have an AlacDPS Mirage with Axe using Mirrored Axes and the Alac trait.

Or you can play pure DPS using IH and each Ambush skill controls what the Clones ambush does so they can choose how much additional damage using that trait provides. Do as they're doing and control the duration of the Clones condi's.

 

[Roadkizzle.2157]

The problem with Staxe wasn't that it existed.

The problem with it was that if you were good with it you could have very high DPS while being a good boon support build.

But decoupling the boon support Trait from the DPS trait will give the controls to provide reasonable amounts of each.

[Valfore.8416]

I see I see, if they maybe add some bonus Condi dmg to the dune cloak to make up for the lack of dmg from the clones??

[Roadkizzle.2157]

12 minutes ago, Valfore.8416 said:

I see I see, if they maybe add some bonus Condi dmg to the dune cloak to make up for the lack of dmg from the clones??

No.

The support trait should be not be tied to doing damage.

The other tools in the trait line should be used to control the damage done.

That will control how much damage can occur with the Alac trait or as a pure DPS class with IH instead.

[Valfore.8416]

If they buff the clones dmg for staff directly, wouldn’t it make people play staff as more of a DPS then which makes it to where it defeats their intention of making it a support weapon.

[KingJake.6529]

4 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

I think the better idea would be to move the Alac providing to the Dune Cloak ability.

Definitely the best option for sure. They could make it so sand shards don't steal boons but instead provides alacrity when it ends or something, can't believe they didn't think of that alternative.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

28 minutes ago, KingJake.6529 said:

Definitely the best option for sure. They could make it so sand shards don't steal boons but instead provides alacrity when it ends or something, can't believe they didn't think of that alternative.

I was thinking Dune Cloak because the trait already centers around boons and Mirage Cloak. But it could have also be on Elusive Mind which is a more supportive trait. But that's on Dodge instead of Mirage Cloak.

I don't think there'd necessarily be a need to change Sand Shards. Just have the Alac providing in addition to it unless that's deemed too powerful.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, Valfore.8416 said:

If they buff the clones dmg for staff directly, wouldn’t it make people play staff as more of a DPS then which makes it to where it defeats their intention of making it a support weapon.

I don't think you're understanding.

The only time Clones perform an Ambush is when they have Mirage Cloak. They can only get Mirage Cloak from the Infinite Horizon trait.

So whatever the Ambush skill does with Clones can NOT happen when the Mirage is providing Alac.

The Ambush skill currently specifies what happens when the player uses it and what happens when clones use it. And that is tied to the weapon used.

 

Currently Clones casting Chaos Vortex provide Alac, Might, and Torment... But that isn't needed. The Ambush skill could instead be changed to healing allies if they want to make it a pure support weapon. Or they could keep it as they are and slash the Torment to 1s. Technically they are doing damage but you'd be stupid to try to take the Staff if you're wanting to do DPS.

But decoupling the Alac support from Infinite Horizon gives control to what they can do and they don't have the impossible balance of how to let the class do top tier DPS while also being a top tier support.

[ventress.4879]

If we start seeing Chronomancer Alacrity take off then I would say it's more likely they will remove Mirage Staff alacrity entirely and return the weapon to a more dps one. 

There is a bit a gap for a more melee focused Mesmer since Virtuoso can be reflected, some PvE content prefer Mirage but it does tend to be rare. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by ventress.4879

[Roadkizzle.2157]

8 minutes ago, ventress.4879 said:

If we start seeing Chronomancer Alacrity take off then I would say it's more likely they will remove Mirage Staff alacrity entirely and return the weapon to a more the dps one. 

There is a bit a gap for a more melee focused Mesmer since Virtuoso can be reflected, some PvE content prefer Mirage but it does tend to be rare. 

Well Axe Mirage is the DPS variant so it's definitely melee... Just a jumpy melee.

With the current design Chrono is going to be a pure offensive support class. Zero boons other than Alac or Quick. Zero healing. And the boons it does have are only activated by doing its DPS.

 

The Mesmer won't have a defensive support build though. I hoped that would be Chrono so I could use it's class weapon in the shield. But Anet has decided to not go that route.

But the Mirage can still be the defensive support. It already has more of the boon application.

[Geronmy.3298]

I posted a similar solution that was very obvious from the start. Make alac a trait competing with IH and don't attach clones to it.

Using clones to provide a boon was never fun, is why Chrono is getting rid of it and replacing it with the new application.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

2 hours ago, Geronmy.3298 said:

I posted a similar solution that was very obvious from the start. Make alac a trait competing with IH and don't attach clones to it.

Using clones to provide a boon was never fun, is why Chrono is getting rid of it and replacing it with the new application.

Well the patch preview did not say the Chrono Quickness trait was getting reworked. So Clones should still provide Quickness when Shattered.

The Alac trait says that Flow of Time will apply to the group so Clones will also apply Alac when Shattered.

 

They are adding the ability to provide the boons on Phantasms but removing the ability to provide the boons freely and without a target by removing it from the Shield and Wells.

[Valfore.8416]

3 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

I don't think you're understanding.

The only time Clones perform an Ambush is when they have Mirage Cloak. They can only get Mirage Cloak from the Infinite Horizon trait.

So whatever the Ambush skill does with Clones can NOT happen when the Mirage is providing Alac.

The Ambush skill currently specifies what happens when the player uses it and what happens when clones use it. And that is tied to the weapon used.

 

Currently Clones casting Chaos Vortex provide Alac, Might, and Torment... But that isn't needed. The Ambush skill could instead be changed to healing allies if they want to make it a pure support weapon. Or they could keep it as they are and slash the Torment to 1s. Technically they are doing damage but you'd be stupid to try to take the Staff if you're wanting to do DPS.

But decoupling the Alac support from Infinite Horizon gives control to what they can do and they don't have the impossible balance of how to let the class do top tier DPS while also being a top tier support.

Maybe i dont understand.

first are we trying to steer alac mirage to more of a healer? if so they need to allow us to provide protection and regen to the group to make it viable.

I also prefer the alac not tied to clones as well just like you 100% and make it to where it's just us providing the alac when we ambush (kinda like how it was way back then) or any other way just not clones.

If we are still talking about making alac mirage a dps support then I'm still for it but remember a good chunk of our damage comes from our clones also doing the ambush. I'm asking how would they make up for the loss of dmg if they went with your idea since we would not be taking IH anymore. Like would you suggest they buff chaos storm and chaos armor dmg even more then and increase our self (not clones) auto attack dmg/ambush cause I would also support the idea where we also do 80% of the dmg and the 20% from the clones doing autoattacks. Most dps supports bench around 25k-28k dps while most pure dps bench about 32k-40k. It would be pointless to take dps support alac mirage to a group if we do the same amount of dmg as like a healer just slightly above like 12k or something. Then comes the next problem of buffing the staff dmg, then it would open up the possibility of a LI build for dps cause now we would probably do around 32k-34k if we take IH instead of the alac trait, would you be against that too?

[Leonidrex.5649]

Is it just me or every mesmer trait rework makes them unusable o.O
somebody mentioned dune-cloak and I had to google it because the only thing that went in my head was " trash never use " but I didnt remember what this actually does.
Like low key. Down to earth. Why rework trait that nobody uses, into a different trait that nobody uses? Why go through the effort lol

[godfat.2604]

I am convinced a few years ago that Infinite Horizon should be made baseline like Illusionary Persona, otherwise there’s no way to make something competing with it and still balanced. Unless they want to rework how clones and ambush works, and now I don’t see they’re up to any rework anymore…
There are tons of ways to fix this, and yet they refuse to do any of them, just keep on breaking it over and over… This is so hopeless and I am amazed I quit the game due to bad balance once again.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

6 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

Is it just me or every mesmer trait rework makes them unusable o.O
somebody mentioned dune-cloak and I had to google it because the only thing that went in my head was " trash never use " but I didnt remember what this actually does.
Like low key. Down to earth. Why rework trait that nobody uses, into a different trait that nobody uses? Why go through the effort lol

People that currently use Axe Mirage for DPS definitely will still be using Infinite Horizon with the suggestion.

But a lot of the Staff Mirage players would probably switch to one of the other traits if the boon generations were removed from the clones Ambush ability. 

If the class provided boons well with one of the other traits then it would be taken in order to make a support character.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, godfat.2604 said:

I am convinced a few years ago that Infinite Horizon should be made baseline like Illusionary Persona, otherwise there’s no way to make something competing with it and still balanced. Unless they want to rework how clones and ambush works, and now I don’t see they’re up to any rework anymore…
There are tons of ways to fix this, and yet they refuse to do any of them, just keep on breaking it over and over… This is so hopeless and I am amazed I quit the game due to bad balance once again.

It seems the problems the Mirage is having is because the DPS, Support, and Defenses are ALL provided by the exact same mechanic.

Mirage has very high defenses because it's constantly dodging and getting Evade frames with the additional defenses from Mirage Cloak on top of the distortion all Mesmers get.

Infinite Horizon creates the Support Mirage by tripling the boon application of the character.

Infinite Horizon creates the DPS Mirage by doubling the damage when Mirage Cloak is granted.

 

If you just give Infinite Horizons baseline then the Mirage will ALWAYS be trying to max out Support, DPS, and Defenses... That's too much for any character and has no way of being balanced without just making it weak in all areas... Because it can still do everything.

But if we keep Infinite Horizons a trait and move the Support  out of the Ambush Attacks then they'll be able to make the Mirage an effective damage dealer with Infinite Horizons and also an effective support character if Infinite Horizons is not selected.

[godfat.2604]

21 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

If you just give Infinite Horizons baseline then the Mirage will ALWAYS be trying to max out Support, DPS, and Defenses... That's too much for any character and has no way of being balanced without just making it weak in all areas... Because it can still do everything.

You don’t have to. Add traits that add more damage (on ambush or not), competing with other traits that add supports (on ambush or not). Keep in mind that all numbers can be tweaked.

27 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

But if we keep Infinite Horizons a trait and move the Support  out of the Ambush Attacks then they'll be able to make the Mirage an effective damage dealer with Infinite Horizons and also an effective support character if Infinite Horizons is not selected.

This is sorta the rework I was mentioning, that we change what ambush does and one important thing you’re probably missing here is, support also needs to have DPS that Valfore keeps talking about. There are two kinds of support, one does still need to have good DPS, and the other should be able to heal. Mesmer in general can’t heal, thus to support it also needs to provide good DPS, which you’re going to miss a lot by lacking Infinite Horizon unless you’re also adding a ton of DPS on the support trait you’re adding to compete with Infinite Horizon. I am not really against this but it’ll be odd and it’ll also lose the iconic Infinite Horizon which makes it less feeling like a Mirage.

[Valfore.8416]

58 minutes ago, godfat.2604 said:

You don’t have to. Add traits that add more damage (on ambush or not), competing with other traits that add supports (on ambush or not). Keep in mind that all numbers can be tweaked.

This is sorta the rework I was mentioning, that we change what ambush does and one important thing you’re probably missing here is, support also needs to have DPS that Valfore keeps talking about. There are two kinds of support, one does still need to have good DPS, and the other should be able to heal. Mesmer in general can’t heal, thus to support it also needs to provide good DPS, which you’re going to miss a lot by lacking Infinite Horizon unless you’re also adding a ton of DPS on the support trait you’re adding to compete with Infinite Horizon. I am not really against this but it’ll be odd and it’ll also lose the iconic Infinite Horizon which makes it less feeling like a Mirage.

thats literally what i was trying to say the whole time, maybe they should take the minor grandmaster (where it gives bonus movement speed and add it to the minor adept. Then make IH the minor grandmaster trait where it then frees up one additional thing. then move what i suggested "mirror weapon" to the major grandmaster trait (while making axe cooldown universal) and then as a major master give a trait where when mirage cloak ends, extends the boons provided by 1 extra seconds or something. Then change mirage mantle to where clones now have quickness when mirage cloak is active. this would make it to where dps mirage will choose that while the alac mirage will choose the support line instead cause it gives 1 extra boon duration. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Valfore.8416

[apharma.3741]

ANet isn't listening to you.
They aren't listening to anyone who doesn't want mesmer soft removed from the game.
Look at the last few patches.
Look at the coming patch.
We have literal high skilled PvP players saying 2 dodge mirage with no nerfs to it or any other class wouldn't be strong in the meta.
Ignored.
Nerfed.
For no reason.

Wake up and boycott mesmer.