quickness herald upkeep change

[arazoth.7290]

 

Elevated compassion: Change upkeep threshold: 6 to upkeep threshold: 2

 

easier energy management this way. Now you can for example use again inspiring reinforcement in need better.

 

(my previous explanation was apparantly little unclear)

Edited July 2, 2023 by arazoth.7290

[arazoth.7290]

update here what I meant to say 

[DeathPanel.8362]

That would make QDPS Rev too op of an option.  The trade-off intended is that you're going to be energy starved if you want to maintain Quickness.

[Jobber.6348]

The problem is needing perma drain in the first place, which forces too many swaps + you lose boon uptime with Draconic Echo. Anet says they'll "solve the issue" but we all know it's really a bandaid. 

What I would rather have been done is True Nature with Elevated Compassion is changed from an Upkeep skill into an active skill similar to Renegade's Orders from Above. It's lazy, yes. It'll severely weaken the True Nature effects due to not being an upkeep anymore, yes. But I'll much rather have a lazy button over perma upkeep which is equally lazy but detrimental to all playstyles due to the forced swapping. 

[Ekko.9854]

On 7/3/2023 at 12:38 AM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

That would make QDPS Rev too op of an option.  The trade-off intended is that you're going to be energy starved if you want to maintain Quickness.

Because literally all the other quickness classes have to make a similar trade-off? Herald isn't even close to top in DPS regarding quickness, and it's also not better boonswise than for instance a firebrand. So this trade-off is just a bit stupid ... This just forces you off glint because Anet read one comment about 'glint camping' and had no better solution 😛 So now they made herald very clunky and kinda killed healherald. Rev was never too op and as long as there will be this weird upkeep mechanic it will not be op. The only thing that they can do is powercreep tf out of it so that youre an auto attacking god. Which playstyle-wise is still a huge L. 

[draxynnic.3719]

To be honest, I kinda think they should have put the quickness on Vindicator instead - while Herald has supportive elements, it doesn't have sub-legend dedicated to support. Especially since shield is being opened up to all revenants in a couple of months.

[DeathPanel.8362]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:52 PM, Ekko.9854 said:

Because literally all the other quickness classes have to make a similar trade-off?

Not the point.  The point is there has to be some trade-off somehow.  Having 2 upkeep would just allow QDPS Rev to keep quickness up forever with no real impact.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Not the point.  The point is there has to be some trade-off somehow.  Having 2 upkeep would just allow QDPS Rev to keep quickness up forever with no real impact.

Just having the trait is a 15-20% damage reduction compared to having Forceful Persistence on a power build, before you even factor in possibly taking boon duration gear, and a smaller reduction on condi builds compared  compared to the new Draconic Echo. Which is not to say that I necessarily agree with the OP's suggestion, but this is a situation where just taking the trait is already a significant tradeoff.

[Batalix.2873]

I feel like 5 upkeep would be the sweet spot. That way on dragon stance you would have the option to modulate your facets to break even and still have some upkeep for skills, while the other stances would still have the drain-tradeoff when not in dragon stance.

It would encourage a bit more camping in dragon stance and specifically using that stance for healing in quickness builds, but still afford them reasonable offensive options and some burst healing in at least once stance. The only thing that would suffer would be Centaur stance not really having the luxury of using other slot skills for burst heals, but that drains so slowly you could still get something out of it. But you could still have a lot of access to staff and shield in dragon stance to make up for it.

Of course, now that I am looking at it, maybe the change is unnecessary all along. Maybe the whole point of quickness Herald is that you only ever need to use one stance for quickness, and the other should have the free energy for heals or DPS.

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Just having the trait is a 15-20% damage reduction compared to having Forceful Persistence on a power build, before you even factor in possibly taking boon duration gear, and a smaller reduction on condi builds compared  compared to the new Draconic Echo. Which is not to say that I necessarily agree with the OP's suggestion, but this is a situation where just taking the trait is already a significant tradeoff.

Correct.  And that's the point.  If there wasn't a significant trade off everyone would be playing QDPS Rev instead of other variations. 

[draxynnic.3719]

18 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Correct.  And that's the point.  If there wasn't a significant trade off everyone would be playing QDPS Rev instead of other variations. 

Point is that being energy starved isn't necessarily a required tradeoff when taking the trait is itself a significant tradeoff to begin with.

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Point is that being energy starved isn't necessarily a required tradeoff when taking the trait is itself a significant tradeoff to begin with.

In your opinion.  Obviously, that opinion isn't shared by the Balance team at ANET.  In my opinion, OP's proposed upkeep of 2 is too low of a trade-off. Something around 5 or 4 would be more reasonable in exchange for easy maintenance of perma quickness for the party.

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

In your opinion.  Obviously, that opinion isn't shared by the Balance team at ANET.  In my opinion, OP's proposed upkeep of 2 is too low of a trade-off. Something around 5 or 4 would be more reasonable in exchange for easy maintenance of perma quickness for the party.

Compared to, say, harbinger that gets it just through slotting a trait and spending enough time in shroud?

The stated goal was to make it so that you were no longer blocked from doing other things because you had to dedicate your entire bar to maintaining the boon. The current upkeep requirement, however, has the same end result, it just switches it from 'spam facets' to 'use six points of upkeep at all times, and you get to spend ~30 energy per legend swap on other things'. (Note: I'm aware that it's possible to build up a reserve of quickness that allows you to drop this for brief periods, but the point still stands, especially if an encounter requires players to split up occasionally.)

But if we're talking about opinions held by the balance team at ArenaNet: there are already builds that provide quickness or alacrity just by taking a trait, maybe a utility or two, and mostly doing what they'd be doing if they weren't a quickness or alacrity build. Revenant isn't able to slot in a utility skill, but in a game where things like harbinger and mechanist exist, I don't think it's unreasonable for having to take a trait to be the main tradeoff as long as the numbers work out reasonably appropriately.

As it is, the playstyle for alacdps is pretty much the same as for Forceful Persistence power DPS anyway, except that you stop at six pips rather than pushing for more.

I kinda have to wonder if a reasonable compromise could be to remove the threshold, but make the duration scale per pip. Say, 1/4 second base per pip. So theoretically, 2 pips could be enough if you have +100% boon duration, but if you want to run berserker's you'd need to run at least 4.

[DeathPanel.8362]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Compared to, say, harbinger that gets it just through slotting a trait and spending enough time in shroud?

 

The shroud isn't permanent.  Revs get perma quickness from just occasionally swapping legends while maintaining 6 upkeep which is extremely easy.  It's literally easier to maintain quickness on rev than a harbinger.  The only downside is you're energy deprived and it feels passive which is why QHeal is probably a better build than QDPS for Rev at this time.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

The shroud isn't permanent.  Revs get perma quickness from just occasionally swapping legends while maintaining 6 upkeep which is extremely easy.  It's literally easier to maintain quickness on rev than a harbinger.  The only downside is you're energy deprived and it feels passive which is why QHeal is probably a better build than QDPS for Rev at this time.

Shroud isn't permanent, to be sure, but it's not hard to be in it more often than not, and cover the period you're not in it with an elixir toss. Mechanist no longer sweats alacrity just by autoattacking, but it's still another case where the main 'price' is a trait or two and maybe a utility. Catalyst and Tempest are paying entirely with traits. Chronomancer is paying for it mostly with traits and maybe taking the phantasm utilities. Daredevil and specter mainly pay through traits (although it seems that they don't pay enough at the moment). Berserker and bladesworn pay through traits as well.

It seems to actually be quite common for the typical balancing factor to not be consuming 60% of a profession's key resource, but simply by taking a trait or two, maybe a utility skill, and possibly a bit of boon duration - the combination of which brings damage down to a level that is considered reasonable for boondps.

Problem with rev, especially herald, is that they're trying to bolt it on to an already well established set of utilities. As I said earlier in this thread, Vindicator was probably a better option. But if they're going to put it on herald, and they're going to claim that the goal is to allow boon builds to be more flexible with their skills, then hitting quickherald with a heavy upkeep burden is not consistent with their stated goals. And your claim is not consistent with the treatment of so many other builds where the main 'price' is taking the boon trait instead of the DPS trait, thereby substantially reducing their potential DPS.

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Shroud isn't permanent, to be sure, but it's not hard to be in it more often than not, and cover the period you're not in it with an elixir toss. Mechanist no longer sweats alacrity just by autoattacking, but it's still another case where the main 'price' is a trait or two and maybe a utility. Catalyst and Tempest are paying entirely with traits. Chronomancer is paying for it mostly with traits and maybe taking the phantasm utilities. Daredevil and specter mainly pay through traits (although it seems that they don't pay enough at the moment). Berserker and bladesworn pay through traits as well.

Mostly being in shroud is still not the same as being able to maintain quickness forever with no gaps.  Rev can maintain 100% quickness with no investment in concentration or boon duration with the fewest buttons pressed.

This QOL alone is a huge advantage.  The downsides are the passive gameplay due to energy starvation and less DPS.  But that dps nerf can be offset if you played QHeal Rev instead of QDPS.  

Personally, I think if they just decreased the upkeep to 5 or 4 Quickness Revs would be in a great place.

[luigrein.8514]

An upkeep cost of more than 2 doesn't actually change anything for any legend but glint.  A cost of 2 lets you upkeep quickness by keeping facet of nature active. The only other upkeep option for non-glint legends is a 6 cost upkeep ability.

[arazoth.7290]

Quickness herald => herald facet of nature 4 upkeep instead of 3 upkeep and give the quickness requirement 4 upkeep minimum.

 

What about this then instead?

[Polar.8634]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Quickness herald => herald facet of nature 4 upkeep instead of 3 upkeep and give the quickness requirement 4 upkeep minimum.

It would be nerf to any possible use of f2 for the sake of quickdps build. Any upkeep less than 6 would be strange on legends other than glint.

I find upkeep requirement ok as it is, and it should become good after mini patch with 1 sec interval and buff to might gen. 

Comparing to previous play style(rotation) nothing changed much except for now quick build has heal and stun break skills on demand which is improvement. 

Only thing I am confused about is that quick ess application was put into healing trait, and quickdps needs to take it .

[draxynnic.3719]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:35 PM, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Mostly being in shroud is still not the same as being able to maintain quickness forever with no gaps.  Rev can maintain 100% quickness with no investment in concentration or boon duration with the fewest buttons pressed.

This QOL alone is a huge advantage.  The downsides are the passive gameplay due to energy starvation and less DPS.  But that dps nerf can be offset if you played QHeal Rev instead of QDPS.  

Personally, I think if they just decreased the upkeep to 5 or 4 Quickness Revs would be in a great place.

In my experience, it's pretty easy to maintain quickness forever with harbinger using elixirs to cover the brief periods you're not in shroud. Snowcrows seems to agree, their quickharb build runs full Viper's.

Maintaining quickness after this month's patch will be pretty easy, but it's pretty close to being an autoattack bot. The thing is, the stated goal wasn't to make maintaining the build trivially easy to do, but to give players the ability to do other things with their build rather than dedicating everything to maintaining the boon. Compared to old quickherald, they've failed to do this, since even assuming high amounts of boon duration so that you don't have to maintain the upkeep permanently, it still consumes a lot of energy that you then can't use for anything else. And like I've said, you're asking for a price, when a price has already been paid in having to take the trait. A full DPS herald can take a trait to give them a big chunk of extra damage percentage, while still having more freedom to use other abilities when that is more important than more damage (but any quickness build allowing quickness to drop is liable to attract some heft criticism from the subsquad).

Yes, the new design, especially after the upcoming patch, will allow for some trivially easy to play full zerker autoattack quickness bots, as long as you don't expect anything from them apart from quickness, a few other boons, and damage. But I do not consider this to be an improvement to the game, as I prefer more active gameplay.

[Ekko.9854]

On 7/12/2023 at 12:21 AM, Polar.8634 said:

It would be nerf to any possible use of f2 for the sake of quickdps build. Any upkeep less than 6 would be strange on legends other than glint.

I find upkeep requirement ok as it is, and it should become good after mini patch with 1 sec interval and buff to might gen. 

Comparing to previous play style(rotation) nothing changed much except for now quick build has heal and stun break skills on demand which is improvement. 

Only thing I am confused about is that quick ess application was put into healing trait, and quickdps needs to take it .

Nah upkeep is just a very bad mechanic in general (EDIT, to avoid confusion: a bad mechanic for uptime of boons such as quickness, as obviously upkeep is inherent to rev) as it drain your energy bar. Objectively it does not make any sense to force quickness on upkeep as by default:

- it makes reactivity worse (less energy to work with and there is a forced switch at some point) 

- it makes alacrity on the class useless? They force quickness and alac on every class, but with this change alac does literally 0 things for herald. Qdps can spam more abilities, which shorten its energy bar, which makes quickness uptime worse? Or it makes that you can't press your attack abilities? Like if you think about it, it makes no sense. You have buttons you can't press? Healherald has the same problem but even more because it heavily relies on its reactivity so the more you use your utilities and weapon abilities, the worse you uptime is? I really don't get how you would design it like that. It makes no sense for me. 

- it makes it worse than any other quickness class in tight situations because you can't spam your quickness and switch to useful stuff for incoming mechanics because if you have no buffer stacked, it forces you to stay on glint, making it less flexible in the end as well. 

Also I would say in previous patch you had to indeed spam stuff and didn't always have heal and stunbreak up, but if you managed concentration right you always had buffer to work with so that you could keep uptime with only 3 glint skills, which made it that you could hold on to stunbreak, heal or cc in cases you knew it was coming. So it really is the same outcome. Now you are energy starved at some point which make you unable to use stuff, and back than u had more cd's but at least alac was useful on it. So I would not say it's an improvement on this part. It's a status quo. 

Furtermore you are right about quickness and healing imo, as they are put in one trait. Healing should be on ventari anyway. That would mean that you could play healherald through ventari and glint, and qdps herald through glint and shiro/jalis. However, as it is now, the herald before the patch made way more sense and allowed both playstyles to shine a lot more. I feel like if they want to force the upkeep quickness mechanic you almost have to make the legend swap cd disappear in order to restore a manageable reactivity for the average player (which includes me) that plays for fun and not counts every energy cost etc. every sec. 

In conclusion for me, revert the upkeep, it makes no sense and if you plan on doing this anet, do it in a beta format as with the weapons. I literally barely see any heralds anymore and I stopped playing it as well as it just does not feel smooth anymore, especially healing which I loved. And its mostly just because of this upkeep mechanic, like it makes you not use utilities which I find really weird, it so much more natural to work with energy costs while you can actually press stuff. And for some legends like ventari it is just a bad design, the bubble, really ... 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Ekko.9854

[Polar.8634]

2 hours ago, Ekko.9854 said:

Nah upkeep is just a very bad mechanic in general as it drain your energy bar.

Upkeep is core rev mechanic, all the builds work around it why heal herald should not. Specifically herald legend does not have any skill with energy cost, only upkeep, so there is no way to spend energy in other way. I would like to be able to drain energy in glint, so that I can trigger trait for more energy in Ventary , for said reactive gameplay.

Before quickness change, heal herald would have full energy and all facets on cooldown at all times.

The only thing I miss in current herald is might gen, but there is fix coming hope it works.

[Ekko.9854]

31 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

Upkeep is core rev mechanic, all the builds work around it why heal herald should not. Specifically herald legend does not have any skill with energy cost, only upkeep, so there is no way to spend energy in other way. I would like to be able to drain energy in glint, so that I can trigger trait for more energy in Ventary , for said reactive gameplay.

Before quickness change, heal herald would have full energy and all facets on cooldown at all times.

The only thing I miss in current herald is might gen, but there is fix coming hope it works.

I meant upkeep is bad mechanic for quickness uptime. Its weird and doesn't make sense as it contradicts what you want from a boonsupport. It feels like it attacks its own uptime. Ofcourse upkeep is a rev mechanic. But quickness should not be tied to it, nor should alac, it makes you fight your own character. Idk, rework Glint energy cost or at least give rev people a choice how they want to apply quickness, but this just doesn't feel like you are in control over your legends and that's not the identity for rev for me. 

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Ekko.9854 said:

 

Also I would say in previous patch you had to indeed spam stuff and didn't always have heal and stunbreak up, but if you managed concentration right you always had buffer to work with so that you could keep uptime with only 3 glint skills, which made it that you could hold on to stunbreak, heal or cc in cases you knew it was coming. So it really is the same outcome. Now you are energy starved at some point which make you unable to use stuff, and back than u had more cd's but at least alac was useful on it. So I would not say it's an improvement on this part. It's a status quo. 

It does amuse me that apologists for new quickherald justify it with 'but you can build up a buffer so you don't always have to be at 6 pips' despite it being just as possible to do that with old quickherald too so you can keep some facets in reserve.

Although I do have to admit to finding a good use for new quickherald - the convenient quickness access makes it great for home instance and guild hall farming.

[Ekko.9854]

40 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It does amuse me that apologists for new quickherald justify it with 'but you can build up a buffer so you don't always have to be at 6 pips' despite it being just as possible to do that with old quickherald too so you can keep some facets in reserve.

Although I do have to admit to finding a good use for new quickherald - the convenient quickness access makes it great for home instance and guild hall farming.

Yeah, spot on. Idk the change for me is just a change for the sake of changing it. It doesn't really improve anything so why change in the first place. It feels like not a lot of thought was put into it. You face same problems and they added some more ... 😛