quickness herald upkeep change

[Polar.8634]

11 hours ago, Ekko.9854 said:

But quickness should not be tied to it, nor should alac

there is no reason for anything to not be tied to energy in energy based class. Some class depends on energy like thief, some on cooldowns like ele, rev depends on both, why would some two boons be out of this. there are classes out there which work different from rev, but rev should not copy them imo.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Ekko.9854 said:

Yeah, spot on. Idk the change for me is just a change for the sake of changing it. It doesn't really improve anything so why change in the first place. It feels like not a lot of thought was put into it. You face same problems and they added some more ... 😛 

I think the logic behind it is getting rid of the 'you spam all your utility skills' playstyle. For most of the professions that were doing this, this significantly hampered your build flexibility, since having to take a full or near-full bar of wells, spirits, gyros, or whatever could hinder your ability to adapt your build to deal with the specific situations you're going to face by taking other utility skills. 

Problem was, herald wasn't like other professions in that respect. It didn't matter if you were spamming all your facets, since the way you adapted to the encounter was usually switching to another legend - Shiro for power damage or teleports, Jalis for stability or damage reduction, Ventari for bubble or heals, Mallyx for boonstrip or condi damage. You could spam your facets, but then it's only half your utility bar, and you can then switch to the other half and do whatever you wanted to do with that once you have ~10s of quickness banked up. Rather than being the equivalent of being the scrapper with a full set of gyros, old quickherald was more like firebrand where roughly half of the bar is devoted to quickness (directly or through being there to trigger traits), but the other half was open to be filled with other things.

The change, ironically, pushes quickherald more into the problem that the other professions had. Instead of only one legend being about quickness and the other being open to be used for something else, now both are part of the quickness engine. Now, that's fine if what you get from the upkeep skill (damage from Shiro, condi damage from Mallyx, bubble from Ventari - nobody's going to take Jalis specifically for hammers in group content outside of some niche tank build since it's selfish and lower DPS than Shiro) is what you want anyway, but that's like saying that old quickscrapper was fine as long as those gyros happened to be bringing something you'd have wanted anyway: what if it's not? If you wanted the other legend for something other than the upkeep skill, than whatever skill you brought it for is now competing for energy with your quickness engine. The change looks like it's the same sort of change that the others had, but it has the reverse effect: making it harder to flex into a variety of sub-roles.

[Ekko.9854]

2 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

there is no reason for anything to not be tied to energy in energy based class. Some class depends on energy like thief, some on cooldowns like ele, rev depends on both, why would some two boons be out of this. there are classes out there which work different from rev, but rev should not copy them imo.

Thiefs, for quickness and alac do not depend on initiative, and it works really well imo right now, making at a well designed change for them as you can still use your weapon skills efficiently (maybe it's only concern rn is it doing a bit too much damage for a boonclass atm?, but that is just a number issue and it's not thatttt insane high as it is mostly single target anyway). I changed playing to quickness deadeye from herald ...

So basically all classes depends on cooldowns and boon duration, and revenant before this patch did as well as well. So now revenant is I think the only class that does not depend on cooldowns, but on its upkeep mechanic. I don't need to be 'unique' if the trade-off is suffering from boredom and clunky-ness.

With this patch I think they wanted to make all classes do the same anyway with forcing quick and alac on everyone, so why make herald different for no real reason without testing it? I like to use my energy to actually press buttons and do stuff instead of mostly auto attacking to preserve energy to I can actually build buffer. I'd rather spam stuff to build a buffer so I get to do things all the time, instead of doing nothing for the first 2 min of a fight so I can end a fight with some sword 4- and 5's. Meaningless to explain how healherald suffers even more from that 😛. So no, quickness should not be tied to the energy as you want people to actually press some buttons and have fun. Maybe if they make weapons cost no energy they can fix that problem, but that would just take away more from the rev identity. All of this just makes me conclude the same every time: give us at least the option in the traitline so we can choose how we want the uptime, and i'm pretty sure a lot more player are going to play herald again. 

___

11 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the logic behind it is getting rid of the 'you spam all your utility skills' playstyle. For most of the professions that were doing this, this significantly hampered your build flexibility, since having to take a full or near-full bar of wells, spirits, gyros, or whatever could hinder your ability to adapt your build to deal with the specific situations you're going to face by taking other utility skills. 

Problem was, herald wasn't like other professions in that respect. It didn't matter if you were spamming all your facets, since the way you adapted to the encounter was usually switching to another legend - Shiro for power damage or teleports, Jalis for stability or damage reduction, Ventari for bubble or heals, Mallyx for boonstrip or condi damage. You could spam your facets, but then it's only half your utility bar, and you can then switch to the other half and do whatever you wanted to do with that once you have ~10s of quickness banked up. Rather than being the equivalent of being the scrapper with a full set of gyros, old quickherald was more like firebrand where roughly half of the bar is devoted to quickness (directly or through being there to trigger traits), but the other half was open to be filled with other things.

The change, ironically, pushes quickherald more into the problem that the other professions had. Instead of only one legend being about quickness and the other being open to be used for something else, now both are part of the quickness engine. Now, that's fine if what you get from the upkeep skill (damage from Shiro, condi damage from Mallyx, bubble from Ventari - nobody's going to take Jalis specifically for hammers in group content outside of some niche tank build since it's selfish and lower DPS than Shiro) is what you want anyway, but that's like saying that old quickscrapper was fine as long as those gyros happened to be bringing something you'd have wanted anyway: what if it's not? If you wanted the other legend for something other than the upkeep skill, than whatever skill you brought it for is now competing for energy with your quickness engine. The change looks like it's the same sort of change that the others had, but it has the reverse effect: making it harder to flex into a variety of sub-roles.

Well said. I totally agree

[doc.9162]

hmm well after playing the new scrapper quick, then going to herald quick, must say there not much to complain about.. descent ez dps, while over capping quickness to the limit, hell i just finished a winterberry run on my herald (with full zerks) and quick uptime was mostly at the 29 sec limit. just me in open world (no alac). so yeah this is like the entry level newbie class now.. like mech is really..

which takes me to my point.. i don't hate this 🙂

useful entry level builds should be part of the game.

just my 2 cents worth.