The endgame makes me want to quit (new player)

[Sobx.1758]

31 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Leveling a character normally is not the same thing as the tutorial WoW does, where it gives you end game abilities, and actually INSTRUCTS you WHAT to cast and WHEN to cast it. GW2 has nothing like that.

Fastest change from "don't tell me how to play" to "why the game doesn't tell me what buttons I should press at what time exactly?!". So do you want to play however you want to play or do you want to have specific builds and skill queues laid out for you (apparently as long as it's not any other player giving those clues)?

[Gravitron.7982]

18 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Not what I said look at this video and you will see you can test out lvl 80 class and skills.

 

Yes, I've boosted like 5 toons so I know the process.....GW2 lets you run around and click on spells aimlessly before you lock it in...that's great...but where is the part where GW2 instructs the player what to press, when to press it, and gives the player combat scenarios? You know, actual training?

[Gravitron.7982]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Fastest change from "don't tell me how to play" to "why the game doesn't tell me what buttons I should press at what time exactly?!". So do you want to play however you want to play or do you want to have specific builds and skill queues laid out for you (apparently as long as it's not any other player giving those clues)?

Yes, I want to play how I choose. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a class tutorial available for new players who want to learn it. An advanced MMO player like me would just skip it, but not everyone who plays MMO's has my MMO experience, so for them, why shouldn't there be an option to have a training course for a class before you choose to boost it? Both of this can exist simultaneously. 

[Sobx.1758]

32 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Yes, I want to play how I choose. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a class tutorial available for new players who want to learn it. An advanced MMO player like me would just skip it, but not everyone who plays MMO's has my MMO experience, so for them, why shouldn't there be an option to have a training course for a class before you choose to boost it? Both of this can exist simultaneously. 

The game explains the tools you have at your disposal to do with the class what you want (within the actual capabilities of what the game offers). All there's left then is reading the tooltips and making your picks. I don't see how "the game telling you what keys press at what time" fits into any of that. If someone wants to be told how to play, there's plenty of player made resources which are updated between the balance changes. Seems reasonable to me.

Enforce specific builds and rotations in tutorial -like you apparently want now, as far as I understand?- and players will think they NEED them to play the game. But they don't need them and they can/will progress at their own pace.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[kharmin.7683]

44 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Yes, I've boosted like 5 toons so I know the process.....GW2 lets you run around and click on spells aimlessly before you lock it in...that's great...but where is the part where GW2 instructs the player what to press, when to press it, and gives the player combat scenarios? You know, actual training?

I thought that was called "experience"?

[Gravitron.7982]

18 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The game explains the tools you have at your disposal to do with the class what you want (within the actual capabilities of what the game offers). All there's left then is reading the tooltips and making your picks. I don't see how "the game telling you what keys press at what time" fits into any of that. If someone wants to be told how to play, there's plenty of player made resources which are updated between the balance changes. Seems reasonable to me.

Enforce specific builds and rotations in tutorial -like you apparently want now, as far as I understand?- and players will think they NEED them to play the game. But they don't need them and they can/will progress at their own pace.

Are you saying that the order in which you click your abilities matters 0.00% in GW2? You can just wack-o-mole everything on every class?

[Gravitron.7982]

2 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I thought that was called "experience"?

As someone who is a self taught musician, I still see the need for music teachers, training courses, etc for people who want to learn that way. Are you saying that "gaining experience by just doing it" invalidates the need for instruction within the game to be available for anyone who wants it?

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, Gravitron.7982 said:

Are you saying that the order in which you click your abilities matters 0.00% in GW2? You can just wack-o-mole everything on every class?

Where EXACTLY did I say anything like "order in which you click your abilities matters 0% in gw2"? Can you maybe respond to what I actually wrote instead of making this stuff up? (unless I missed it, but then make sure to tell me where do you think I wrote anything like that)

[Gravitron.7982]

Just now, Sobx.1758 said:

Where EXACTLY did I say anything like "order in which you click your abilities matters 0% in gw2"? Can you maybe respond to what I actually wrote instead of making this stuff up? (unless I missed it, but then make sure to tell me where do you think I wrote anything like that)

So if it DOES matter, point me to where the game shows you what order in which certain abilities should be used? I don't think you can.

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

So if it DOES matter, point me to where the game shows you what order in which certain abilities should be used? I don't think you can.

This is what I wrote:

30 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The game explains the tools you have at your disposal to do with the class what you want (within the actual capabilities of what the game offers). All there's left then is reading the tooltips and making your picks. I don't see how "the game telling you what keys press at what time" fits into any of that. If someone wants to be told how to play, there's plenty of player made resources which are updated between the balance changes. Seems reasonable to me.

Enforce specific builds and rotations in tutorial -like you apparently want now, as far as I understand?- and players will think they NEED them to play the game. But they don't need them and they can/will progress at their own pace.

Can you respond to that? Or did you just try to use your own made up strawman in an attempt to completely avoid responding to that post and nothing else? I seriously don't get it. Is "making a strawman" some new tactic to "just forget what I quoted before"? I wrote what I wrote above, you misconstrued it, I pointed out I didn't write what you claim I wrote so now...  read it and respond please, ty (because what you're asking for is already addressed there).

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

10 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

I still see the need for music teachers, training courses, etc for people who want to learn that way.

👇

31 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If someone wants to be told how to play, there's plenty of player made resources which are updated between the balance changes. Seems reasonable to me.

Might just be me, but I see a direct relation of these two things. When you were self-learning, did your instrument containt instructions about how to optimally use it? Or did it -at best- explain the basicas and left it to you to make your progress or be taught with the help of others?

[Gravitron.7982]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

This is what I wrote:

Can you respond to that? Or did you just try to use your own made up strawman in an attempt to completely avoid responding to that post and nothing else? I seriously don't get it. Is "making a strawman" some new tactic to "just forget what I quoted before"? I wrote what I wrote above, you misconstrued it, I pointed out I didn't write what you claim what I wrote so now...  read it and respond please, ty (because what you're asking for is already addressed there).

You wrote: 

"I don't see how "the game telling you what keys press at what time" fits into any of that. " 

It fits because if certain spells are meant to be pressed before other spells, then players should know that they need to press Spell A before Spell B. How do you not understand this? GW2 does not tell players "Hey press spell A, it will boost your damage!...ok now, press spell B for a big critical hit!". 

WoW's class trials, which you enter when you use a level 60 boost, tells you this....it literally tells you "You should use this spell, THEN use this other spell..." That's a pretty important piece of information for new players, especially people new to MMORPG's. Not everyone needs this info, some of us already know how this type of mechanic works because...it's used in 90% of existing MMORPG's. The point is that GW2 fails at this, and is probably why a lot of new players get lost in the game. 

Your mentality is that manuals exist, therefore no one should be confused. But anyone who is lived in the past 20 years knows that manuals existing does not mean anything. I'm not saying ALL players should be FORCED to go through this if they use a level 80 boost, but why is this not even an option available to people who want a more interactive form of class training before they boost? Why is that such a bad thing for the game? What are you so afraid of if GW2 had something like this as an OPTION when using a boost? 

The vets can just skip this option, and fully boost the charcter...no harm no foul. But this is something that WoW offers, and GW2 fails at. Period.

[Gravitron.7982]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

👇

Might just be me, but I see a direct relation of these two things. When you were self-learning, did your instrument containt instructions about how to optimally use it? Or did it -at best- explain the basicas and left it to you to make your progress or be taught with the help of others?

You're saying that we should have to pick between one type of training or another? I don't understand this. Does the existence of virtuosos and prodigies eliminate the usefulness of music classes or something? I'm confused here 

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

You wrote: 

"I don't see how "the game telling you what keys press at what time" fits into any of that. " 

It fits because if certain spells are meant to be pressed before other spells, then players should know that they need to press Spell A before Spell B. How do you not understand this? GW2 does not tell players "Hey press spell A, it will boost your damage!...ok now, press spell B for a big critical hit!".

If there are, those effects or literal skill names are mentioned in the description. So in this case the SAME thing is achieved by the previously mentioned reading of the tooltips, isn't it?

I mean if there's a skill with a tooldtip saying "this applies condition to you" and then there's another skill saying "this transfers conditions from yourself to the enemy", is this somehow not clear enough how those two skills work together? What's the issue that's being solved here? Is "reading tooltips" the issue here? I don't think it is, which is why I disagree with a need of what you say is needed here.

...not to mention those skills still have their uses even if they're not being used together, so if someone doesn't want to keep pressing skills in duos... they don't need to. This is why I wrote this in my previous post:
Enforce specific builds and rotations in tutorial -like you apparently want now, as far as I understand?- and players will think they NEED them to play the game. But they don't need them and they can/will progress at their own pace.

12 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

WoW's class trials, which you enter when you use a level 60 boost, tells you this....it literally tells you "You should use this spell, THEN use this other spell..." That's a pretty important piece of information for new players, especially people new to MMORPG's. Not everyone needs this info, some of us already know how this type of mechanic works because...it's used in 90% of existing MMORPG's. The point is that GW2 fails at this, and is probably why a lot of new players get lost in the game.

But, again, is this info somehow not conveyed by relevant tooltips? From what I know, it is. Except the game doesn't tell you that "you should be using these skills together or you're wrong!" and that's because... you don't need to use these skill together. If the game was supposed to enforce meta builds and rotations, they'd need to keep updating them every other balance patch. That's not happening. If you don't strive for perfection (and, again, there's no need to) then there's no need for the game to tell you "always use these skills together!". On the other side if you ARE striving for perfection... Googling meta builds and rotations is as easy as it gets.

12 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Your mentality is that manuals exist, therefore no one should be confused.

Once again, this is not what I wrote, stop putting words in my mouth.

 

_________________

10 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

You're saying that we should have to pick between one type of training or another? I don't understand this. Does the existence of virtuosos and prodigies eliminate the usefulness of music classes or something? I'm confused here 

You said you're ok with teachers existing. I said there are ""teachers"" (easly accessible playermade resources for -both more and less- optimalized gameplay). At the same time you disregarded the fact that when you made a choice to self learn, even if you didn't make that choice, your instrument didn't come with instructions how to be great, fast. What I'm saying isn't that we somehow "need to choose between them", what I'm saying is that "if that's what you're looking for, it's already there and it's easly accessible". The game doesn't need to tell you how to play optimally,  because it's not balanced around optimal gameplay. It's just that simple.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Gravitron.7982]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If there are, those effects or literal skill names are mentioned in the description. So in this case the SAME thing is achieved by the previously mentioned reading of the tooltips, isn't it?

I mean if there's a skill with a tooldtip saying "this applies condition to you" and then there's another skill saying "this transfers conditions from yourself to the enemy", is this somehow not clear enough how those two skills work together? What's the issue that's being solved here? Is "reading tooltips" the issue here? I don't think it is, which is why I disagree with a need of what you say is needed here.

...not to mention those skills still have their uses even if they're not being used together, so if someone doesn't want to keep pressing skills in duos... they don't need to. This is why I wrote this in my previous post:
Enforce specific builds and rotations in tutorial -like you apparently want now, as far as I understand?- and players will think they NEED them to play the game. But they don't need them and they can/will progress at their own pace.

But, again, is this info somehow not conveyed by relevant tooltips? From what I know, it is. Except the game doesn't tell you that "you should be using these skills together or you're wrong!" and that's because... you don't need to use these skill together. If the game was supposed to enforce meta builds and rotations, they'd need to keep updating them every other balance patch. That's not happening. If you don't strive for perfection (and, again, there's no need to) then there's no need for the game to tell you "always use these skills together!". On the other side if you ARE striving for perfection... Googling meta builds and rotations is as easy as it gets.

Once again, this is not what I wrote, stop putting words in my mouth.

Oh sorry...not "manuals"...Tooltips exist, therefore no training is needed right? Or is that NOT what you believe? Care to clarify for me?

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

Oh sorry...not "manuals"...Tooltips exist, therefore no training is needed right? Or is that NOT what you believe? Care to clarify for me?

Ok, thank you for clarifying you mean "tooldtips" instead of "manuals". Now please respond to what you've quoted, because as far as I'm aware that doesn't change anything about what I wrote other than the use of those two words. You said that it's needed to know which skills "should be" used after another. I said it's already explained by the tooltips and asked what problem you're trying to solve here. [Then I wrote more]. You avoided EVERYTHING and now you're again asking the question I already responded to. What is happening here?

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Gravitron.7982]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok, thank you for clarifying you mean "tooldtips" instead of "manuals". Now please respond to what you've quoted, because as far as I'm aware that doesn't change anything about what I wrote other than the use of those two words. You said that it's needed to know which skills "should be" used after another. I said it's already explained by the tooltips and asked what problem you're trying to solve here. [Then I wrote more]. You avoided EVERYTHING and now you're again asking the question I already responded to. What is happening here?

You're avoiding answering my question, why would you care if other people are avoiding answering yours? LOL. 

So the spells have tool tips...so what? Anet's job of instruction is done for all? I disagree. 

You can have tool tips, and manuals, AND active tutorials like what WoW does. You can have all 3!  Pretty amazing right? All 3 can exist at the same time, and server different purposes for different audience....nice right?

[Maggi.6198]

5 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

You're avoiding answering my question, why would you care if other people are avoiding answering yours? LOL. 

So the spells have tool tips...so what? Anet's job of instruction is done for all? I disagree. 

You can have tool tips, and manuals, AND active tutorials like what WoW does. You can have all 3!  Pretty amazing right? All 3 can exist at the same time, and server different purposes for different audience....nice right?

Would you say that the EoD Tutorial is a good enough tutorial for the game? They teach all about defiance bars, combo fields, dodging and blocking etc. 

Also, as a person who has never played WoW nor seen anything about the game: How realistic would it be for me to use only ingame ressources to boost and start "endgame content" instantly without any 3rd person ressources?

[Sobx.1758]

11 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

You're avoiding answering my question, why would you care if other people are avoiding answering yours? LOL.

I'm not avoiding answering your question, as I said the answer to this question is already in the post (posts?) you've quoted:

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If there are, those effects or literal skill names are mentioned in the description. So in this case the SAME thing is achieved by the previously mentioned reading of the tooltips, isn't it?

I mean if there's a skill with a tooldtip saying "this applies condition to you" and then there's another skill saying "this transfers conditions from yourself to the enemy", is this somehow not clear enough how those two skills work together? What's the issue that's being solved here? Is "reading tooltips" the issue here? I don't think it is, which is why I disagree with a need of what you say is needed here.

...not to mention those skills still have their uses even if they're not being used together, so if someone doesn't want to keep pressing skills in duos... they don't need to. This is why I wrote this in my previous post:
Enforce specific builds and rotations in tutorial -like you apparently want now, as far as I understand?- and players will think they NEED them to play the game. But they don't need them and they can/will progress at their own pace.

 

What's unclear about that response?

[Gravitron.7982]

Just now, Maggi.6198 said:

Would you say that the EoD Tutorial is a good enough tutorial for the game? They teach all about defiance bars, combo fields, dodging and blocking etc. 

Also, as a person who has never played WoW nor seen anything about the game: How realistic would it be for me to use only ingame ressources to boost and start "endgame content" instantly without any 3rd person ressources?

I'd say the EoD tutorial is a better tutorial than what the Level 80 boost offers. It at least explains defiance bars, etc. That's closer to what WoW does with their boosts, so It wouldn't be too hard to tie that tutorial into the level 80 boost for those that want to utilize said tutorial. 

As far as WoW goes, if you do the level 80 boost, it will show you the theme and basics of the class you boosted, without ever having to have played the class. But for endgame content, the tutorial does not teach you raid or dungeon mechanics, it does not teach you any real skills for PVP, etc, so you still need outside resources for that.

I don't think I've played an MMORPG that did not still need outside resources for game knowledge, but GW2 feels like it requires the most use of outside knowledge than most MMORPG's I've played. 

[Gravitron.7982]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm not avoiding answering your question, as I said the answer to this question is already in the post (posts?) you've quoted:

 

What's unclear about that response?

All of it is unclear, maybe you can clarify for me. Here I'll keep it pretty simple...

You know the tutorial for EoD right? Imagine Anet linked a level 80 boost token to that tutorial, and made it optional....that's literally all I'm talking about. Literally that simple.

[Maggi.6198]

3 minutes ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

I'd say the EoD tutorial is a better tutorial than what the Level 80 boost offers. It at least explains defiance bars, etc. That's closer to what WoW does with their boosts, so It wouldn't be too hard to tie that tutorial into the level 80 boost for those that want to utilize said tutorial. 

As far as WoW goes, if you do the level 80 boost, it will show you the theme and basics of the class you boosted, without ever having to have played the class. But for endgame content, the tutorial does not teach you raid or dungeon mechanics, it does not teach you any real skills for PVP, etc, so you still need outside resources for that.

I don't think I've played an MMORPG that did not still need outside resources for game knowledge, but GW2 feels like it requires the most use of outside knowledge than most MMORPG's I've played.

I sort of agree that the EoD tutorial would be somewhat better to teach the fundamentals, I sort of also see why they give you a small part of open world to just play around in, cause that is also a big part of the game. A mix of both would probably be a better tutorial, but then again, it's for a minimal number of players with no general experience in the game who instantly boost. I would assume that people who do that have already informed themselves what they are getting into by doing so? Maybe I am too optimistic here.

I asked the question about the WoW thing to rerail the topic. Jumping into endgame without any "experience" in the game will lead to questionmarks, no matter the game. Is GW2 endgame complicated? Probably. Is it hard? If you are not aware of what you are doing probably very much so. Are there always people around to help ingame? From my experience yes. Especially in the big hubs, there is always people answering questions, pointing players to the right locations etc. I am trying to do that while idling and I see plenty of others doing so and I think that is worth more than any tutorial, tooltip or manual will do in the long run.

[Gendalfs.7521]

Tbh I made my journey almost solo and know what? Most of info I got from youtube videos, because this game give nothing for lead. My thanks to AyinMaiden and TiffyMissWiffy. Without them I dont think I would get skyscale. And many others ofc... 🙂

Edited July 14, 2023 by Gendalfs.7521
Added info

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Gravitron.7982 said:

You know the tutorial for EoD right? Imagine Anet linked a level 80 boost token to that tutorial, and made it optional....that's literally all I'm talking about. Literally that simple.

Aren't level 80 boosters already added to expansion purchases?

If it's about booster taking you into EoD-like training grounds instead of silverwastes then I don't have anything against that. But EoD training grounds isn't what you were talking about in your previous posts.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Gravitron.7982]

1 hour ago, Gendalfs.7521 said:

Tbh I made my journey almost solo and know what? Most of info I got from youtube videos, because this game give nothing for lead. My thanks to AyinMaiden and TiffyMissWiffy. Without them I dont think I would get skyscale. And many others ofc... 🙂

I appreciate you sharing your experience. Yeah the game doesn't really give much more than "This is a sword, you kill things with it..." and you are supposed to just fill in the blanks yourself.