What if Sand Savant

[DeVieEtMort.1760]

What if Sand Savant instead had Alacrity?

• Target cap can be more easily defined (as only one instance can exist)
• Boon Coverage issue may be alleviated
• Shades can all return (big and small shades) to a 20-second duration

And possibly detach alacrity from barrier such that barrier retains its original purpose rather than a boon generator.

Unless Sand Savant actually has any other use beside the CondiDPS or Alacrity builds?

 

(I know that the topic and the suggestions above been given and talked to death, but maybe reiteration can change their minds... maybe)

Edited July 12, 2023 by DeVieEtMort.1760

[The Boz.2038]

Many sane people have been saying this exact thing for weeks now. ANet not listening, looks like.

It is sad, really. It is such a fruit-not-even-hanging-low-it-is-on-the-ground type of deal, but nope...

[Gaeb.2837]

Here's my attempt to read their minds and why I think it makes some sense:

1. Sandstorm Shroud has multiple pulses (4 in 3.5s), which make it a ~good option for the low-duration Alac they're pursuing (why they're pursuing that is another matter, my hypothesis is expediency / re-using an existing paradigm). With 100% boondur on July 18, that's cranking out 12s of alac on 20s cooldown. Note: I think they need to add 1-2 more pulses given the difficulties of using Shade for alac & to bring it inline with Renegade. The bottom talent row is basically now the "support" row, and the middle row the "dps" row.
2. The top row is ~the pvp row. Sand Savant is great for large area denial (fear, boonrip, conditions, barrier) and it makes sense that they think that's more of a PVP niche. 

Especially if they're trying to proliferate quick/alac fairly quickly (they said they were doing this now in preparation for changes to boons later this summer) they don't want to touch too much spaghetti code (big investment of time) so low duration pulsing alac (used in plenty of other places, eg renegade & mechanist) and put it on the already existing (non-dps) pulsing shroud that already exists rather than code a new one. 

Given what they initially released, it does smack of ~last-minute "ah and we need it on Scourge too... ok, coding another shroud creates too much potential for issues, lets use sandstorm shroud. We just need to make it so you can't alac more than 5 people, so lets reduce the shade count to effectively 1." To be clear, I think their first implementation of scourge alac was awful (which is why it smacks of last-minute), I still don't love this one (recommendations in other threads), and shade duration at 8s is still awful, but I can see some reasoning behind why they chose Sandstorm Shroud.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Gaeb.2837

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Note: with Soul Reaping and Alacrity factored in, Sandstorm Shroud has a 13.5 second cooldown.

[Gaeb.2837]

1 hour ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Note: with Soul Reaping and Alacrity factored in, Sandstorm Shroud has a 13.5 second cooldown.

I frankly had overlooked Soul Reaping. My bad.   

Still would prefer an additional pulse since A- shade won't be easy to hit the group with unless you manually target and B- Using renegade as a benchmark, should be able to upkeep with 80% boondur; but that is an excellent point.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Gaeb.2837

[Batalix.2873]

4 hours ago, Gaeb.2837 said:

Here's my attempt to read their minds and why I think it makes some sense:

1. Sandstorm Shroud has multiple pulses (4 in 3.5s), which make it a ~good option for the low-duration Alac they're pursuing (why they're pursuing that is another matter, my hypothesis is expediency / re-using an existing paradigm). With 100% boondur on July 18, that's cranking out 12s of alac on 20s cooldown. Note: I think they need to add 1-2 more pulses given the difficulties of using Shade for alac & to bring it inline with Renegade. The bottom talent row is basically now the "support" row, and the middle row the "dps" row.
2. The top row is ~the pvp row. Sand Savant is great for large area denial (fear, boonrip, conditions, barrier) and it makes sense that they think that's more of a PVP niche. 

Especially if they're trying to proliferate quick/alac fairly quickly (they said they were doing this now in preparation for changes to boons later this summer) they don't want to touch too much spaghetti code (big investment of time) so low duration pulsing alac (used in plenty of other places, eg renegade & mechanist) and put it on the already existing (non-dps) pulsing shroud that already exists rather than code a new one. 

Given what they initially released, it does smack of ~last-minute "ah and we need it on Scourge too... ok, coding another shroud creates too much potential for issues, lets use sandstorm shroud. We just need to make it so you can't alac more than 5 people, so lets reduce the shade count to effectively 1." To be clear, I think their first implementation of scourge alac was awful (which is why it smacks of last-minute), I still don't love this one (recommendations in other threads), and shade duration at 8s is still awful, but I can see some reasoning behind why they chose Sandstorm Shroud.

I also think that it was some attempt to maintain "options" and some sort of "skill" for buildcraft. If alac is on Sand Savant, that just further narrows support Scourge to a single non-choice for GM. Whereas having two separate support-ish GM traits in theory forces some decision-making and adaptation.

Wanna heal/rez? Try doing that without alac. Wanna alac? Well you're gonna have to work harder for it.

I don't really think this is the most successful solution, but here we are.

For the record, I don't totally hate the 8s on my Scourge build. But it is also built exclusively as a sand-barrier/alac mage and isn't really concerned with damage and area-control. Wouldn't mind the extra flexibility but it does its stupid, useless, narrow OW niche totally fine.

[Gaeb.2837]

Just now, Batalix.2873 said:

For the record, I don't totally hate the 8s on my Scourge build. But it is also built exclusively as a sand-barrier/alac mage and isn't really concerned with damage and area-control. Wouldn't mind the extra flexibility but it does its stupid, useless, narrow OW niche totally fine.

My read is the corner they backed themselves into is that barrier from multiple shades means alac to >5 targets. To fix this, they set the shade duration to the same as the charge rate. No one likes it because it's too short. There are other ways to skin that cat (A- Only place one shade, placing a new one reverts it, back to 20s duration B- Don't generate barrier from shades, etc.) but they grabbed the one that forced a big shift to the way the class plays. To be clear, I'm grateful that they're putting all of the boon/condition duration on one shade going forward, but the 8 seconds is what drives folks batty.

[Batalix.2873]

14 minutes ago, Gaeb.2837 said:

My read is the corner they backed themselves into is that barrier from multiple shades means alac to >5 targets. To fix this, they set the shade duration to the same as the charge rate. No one likes it because it's too short. There are other ways to skin that cat (A- Only place one shade, placing a new one reverts it, back to 20s duration B- Don't generate barrier from shades, etc.) but they grabbed the one that forced a big shift to the way the class plays. To be clear, I'm grateful that they're putting all of the boon/condition duration on one shade going forward, but the 8 seconds is what drives folks batty.

Yes this is essentially why they did it. Which... Scourge was always able to maintain too much easy ranged condi cleave damage with three shades up anyway. It was fun but I recognized for a while that DPS scourge was borderline broken.

The duration really doesn't change as much as people think. No matter the duration you still would be plopping a shade every 8 seconds to trigger the initial torment/burning. You just don't have the ability to control as much area to hit enemies with shade abilities, and similarly for tagging players with barrier/alac.

I wouldn't mind a version of Scourge that brought back longer shade duration and the ability to control more area, but I feel like fairness really demands the condi damage be nerfed heavily. The ability to have four sizeable AoEs simultaneously slapping condi damage on enemies was always a LOT.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Gaeb.2837]

5 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Yes this is essentially why they did it. Which... Scourge was always able to maintain too much easy ranged condi cleave damage with three shades up anyway. It was fun but I recognized for a while that DPS scourge was borderline broken.

The duration really doesn't change as much as people think. No matter the duration you still would be plopping a shade every 8 seconds to trigger the initial torment/burning. You just don't have the ability to control as much area to hit enemies with shade abilities, and similarly for tagging players with barrier/alac.

Agree with first paragraph, disagree with second. 20s was a lot of leeway, 8s is tighter than all but the occasional weapon skill.

[Batalix.2873]

5 minutes ago, Gaeb.2837 said:

Agree with first paragraph, disagree with second. 20s was a lot of leeway, 8s is tighter than all but the occasional weapon skill.

It's the same timing though? All that has changed is you only get one active at a time with a limited ability to use two extra shades for bursts.

You're not placing shades any more or less frequently. Still every 8 seconds when you get another charge. You just don't get the passive benefits of them staying up for longer and increasing your area/target number.

So I don't see how this makes weaponskills any more or less tight, unless we are talking specifically about the 3 shade bonus which is being removed.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Batalix.2873

[Gaeb.2837]

Just now, Batalix.2873 said:

It's the same timing though?

Is it? Especially for single targets?
Old: Place 3 shades relatively quickly. Wait 18s or so. Place 2 more. The duration being 2.5x the charge rate meant you had a lot of leeway on when to place them, and could place them in groups without losing duration.

New: EVERY. EIGHT. SECONDS. REQUIRED.

Also, saying shades are for 'burst' which confuses me a bit - you get a weak stack of torment and burning. Sure, if you have 3 shades in an AOE situation and shroud ready to go, you can do a moderate aoe burst (which I again agree with getting away from) but in the new world, you don't have any real "burst" to speak of?

[Batalix.2873]

Just now, Gaeb.2837 said:

Is it? Especially for single targets?
Old: Place 3 shades relatively quickly. Wait 18s or so. Place 2 more. The duration being 2.5x the charge rate meant you had a lot of leeway on when to place them, and could place them in groups without losing duration.

New: EVERY. EIGHT. SECONDS. REQUIRED.

Also, saying shades are for 'burst' which confuses me a bit - you get a weak stack of torment and burning. Sure, if you have 3 shades in an AOE situation and shroud ready to go, you can do a moderate aoe burst (which I again agree with getting away from) but in the new world, you don't have any real "burst" to speak of?

Yeah I guess thinking about it more you have more flexibility in delaying shades with longer duration.

But I still don't really see an elegant way to bring that back up without bringing back the problem of too much area/targets. And while the devs have also been concerned with alac specifically I still don't really want scourge to regress back to too much easy AoE damage.

Maybe 12 seconds would be a happier middle ground. That way you can mostly juggle two shades.

[Gaeb.2837]

Just now, Batalix.2873 said:

Maybe 12 seconds would be a happier middle ground. That way you can mostly juggle two shades.

That was my suggestion a few days ago... I'd also be fine with 20s duration and just one shade up at a time (Scourge has plenty of cleave with just one shade) ... but ah well.

[Riot Inducer.8964]

39 minutes ago, Gaeb.2837 said:

That was my suggestion a few days ago... I'd also be fine with 20s duration and just one shade up at a time (Scourge has plenty of cleave with just one shade) ... but ah well.

Honestly maybe the best solution if they're committed to alac on Desert Empowerment is to invert Sand Savant. 1 shade is base and Savant grants 3 at a time. Of course the duration needs ro go up regardless but I feel like that's more livable for everyone than this "3 shades in theory but 1 in practice" thing we have now.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Just now, Riot Inducer.8964 said:

Honestly maybe the best solution if they're committed to alac on Desert Empowerment is to invert Sand Savant. 1 shade is base and Savant grants 3 at a time. Of course the duration needs ro go up regardless but I feel like that's more livable for everyone than this "3 shades in theory but 1 in practice" thing we have now.

The whole reason for all these changes is that Alacrity never gets paired with Sand Savant.
That one large shade allows you to affect up to 10 targets. And a-net feared 10 man alac scourge overtaking meta.
That's why Desert Empowerment became grandmaster - to ensure you can't use the greater shade and alacrity at the same time.

[Riot Inducer.8964]

44 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

The whole reason for all these changes is that Alacrity never gets paired with Sand Savant.
That one large shade allows you to affect up to 10 targets. And a-net feared 10 man alac scourge overtaking meta.
That's why Desert Empowerment became grandmaster - to ensure you can't use the greater shade and alacrity at the same time.

You misundertand me, target cap is the reason we're already nerfed to 1 shade in practice. If we could reliably maintain even two shades permanently we would be able to maintain 9 person alacrity. Nevermind thee and 12 person alac.

Inverting Sand Savant would mean we're stuck with 1 shade with a 3 target limit but a non spammy duration/cooldown balance. Lower target limit is simply a reality now since as long as Scourge has an "essential boon" it cannot have 10+ target limit for its skills by default. 

I simply want to call a spade a spade and have Sand Savant as a way to allow Scourge to have its classic gameplay style alongside a base shade duration that isn't horrific to play. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Riot Inducer.8964

[Batalix.2873]

Really the problem with a lot of this is that shades are one of the last vestiges of party targets that don't have a strict 5-man target cap.

Which always felt kind of stupid to me, cutting out the potential design space of 5+ man clutches and deliberately walking players out from supporting the whole team. But this sort of homogenization has been happening to so many other unique class features it's not very surprising. Just...bland, boring design.

Imo the balance devs are just creatively bankrupt. Instead of taking the legitimately interesting route of trying to edge up/down individual especs' strengths or weakness, they are just blanketly cutting out whole features and totally levelling the landscape for it. "Balanced", but not much to keep anyone's interest anymore.

[DeVieEtMort.1760]

2 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

The whole reason for all these changes is that Alacrity never gets paired with Sand Savant.
That one large shade allows you to affect up to 10 targets. And a-net feared 10 man alac scourge overtaking meta.
That's why Desert Empowerment became grandmaster - to ensure you can't use the greater shade and alacrity at the same time.

Honest question (and on a purely PvE perspective), when else would you use Sand Savant? And would it greatly impact any Sand Savant build should the trait ever have alacrity on top of its existing effects?

[Lily.1935]

9 hours ago, Gaeb.2837 said:

Here's my attempt to read their minds and why I think it makes some sense:

1. Sandstorm Shroud has multiple pulses (4 in 3.5s), which make it a ~good option for the low-duration Alac they're pursuing (why they're pursuing that is another matter, my hypothesis is expediency / re-using an existing paradigm). With 100% boondur on July 18, that's cranking out 12s of alac on 20s cooldown. Note: I think they need to add 1-2 more pulses given the difficulties of using Shade for alac & to bring it inline with Renegade. The bottom talent row is basically now the "support" row, and the middle row the "dps" row.
2. The top row is ~the pvp row. Sand Savant is great for large area denial (fear, boonrip, conditions, barrier) and it makes sense that they think that's more of a PVP niche. 

Especially if they're trying to proliferate quick/alac fairly quickly (they said they were doing this now in preparation for changes to boons later this summer) they don't want to touch too much spaghetti code (big investment of time) so low duration pulsing alac (used in plenty of other places, eg renegade & mechanist) and put it on the already existing (non-dps) pulsing shroud that already exists rather than code a new one. 

Given what they initially released, it does smack of ~last-minute "ah and we need it on Scourge too... ok, coding another shroud creates too much potential for issues, lets use sandstorm shroud. We just need to make it so you can't alac more than 5 people, so lets reduce the shade count to effectively 1." To be clear, I think their first implementation of scourge alac was awful (which is why it smacks of last-minute), I still don't love this one (recommendations in other threads), and shade duration at 8s is still awful, but I can see some reasoning behind why they chose Sandstorm Shroud.

The top row is the Support row actually. The bottom row was the PvP row, but over time and with several changes that has changed. Sand Savant was the capstone for the support role. This has been understood since release.