Obtena.7952 Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Treacy.4067 said: That's the problem, you are not clear and you keep changing your previous arguments. You said player opinions don't factor in then try to argue you didn't say it lol. That's just dishonest. I'm not changing what I said at all. The message is consistent. Anet has criteria they use to determine if classes are in a good place. Players opinions do not determine what is a good place or not. That in NO WAY means I think players opinions don't matter ... that's just your absurdly bad take. Perhaps if you stopped trying to tell me what I said (when I didn't say things) and arguing with me about your interpretations of what you THINK I'm implying (when I didn't imply them), you wouldn't be in this mess. Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said: lol I even threw in an actual, honest-to-goodness response to Obtena, just to "give them a chance" to address the actual issue at hand, instead of the usual useless Obtena-brand pedantry. Oh well. And to be fair, it was a good response. I had nothing to add to it so I didn't respond. What I especially liked was that you come to pretty much the same conclusion I did. We aren't fond of the change, but we can see reasons why it happened and what the result could be from it. Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 (edited) double post. Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 44 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: That's just dishonest. I'm not changing what I said at all. The message is consistent. Anet has criteria they use to determine if classes are in a good place. Players opinions do not determine what is a good place or not. That in NO WAY means I think players opinions don't matter ... that's just your absurdly bad take. Perhaps if you stopped trying to tell me what I said (when I didn't say things) and arguing with me about your interpretations of what you THINK I'm implying (when I didn't imply them), you wouldn't be in this mess. It's not dishonest. What's dishonest is saying something, then going back and editing it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said: It's not dishonest. What's dishonest is saying something, then going back and editing it. There isn't anything dishonest about making edits to posts to correct or improve the text. as long as the general message doesn't change. In case you haven't noticed, I will ALWAYS repeat my points in every post, consistently, to show that such accusations that I change what I say in previous posts to discuss in bad faith are nonsense. Here let me do that right now. Anet has criteria they use to determine if classes are in a good place. I listed two of those in my first post. Players opinions do not determine what is in a good place or not; That determination is purely a result of Anet's assessment. That's not me saying player opinions don't matter, like you accuse me of saying/implying. That's simply a terrible take you have on what I did say to have a go at me. Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 37 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: There isn't anything dishonest about making edits to posts to correct or improve the text. as long as the general message doesn't change. In case you haven't noticed, I will ALWAYS repeat my points in every post, consistently, to show that such accusations that I change what I say in previous posts to discuss in bad faith are nonsense. Here let me do that right now. Anet has criteria they use to determine if classes are in a good place. I listed two of those in my first post. Players opinions do not determine what is in a good place or not; That determination is purely a result of Anet's assessment. That's not me saying player opinions don't matter, like you accuse me of saying/implying. That's simply a terrible take you have on what I did say to have a go at me. That doesn't change the fact that you've altered your posts after the fact. You've done it before too and you did it to that other person as well. You're not arguing in good faith, I see that now. Let's not derail this person's thread. I was simply saying that I disagreed with your assessment over whether things are in a good place simply because a company is hitting it's marks or because they say so. I think that's a faulty argument. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said: That doesn't change the fact that you've altered your posts after the fact. You've done it before too and you did it to that other person as well. I was simply saying that I disagreed with your assessment over whether things are in a good place simply because a company is hitting it's marks or because they say so. I think that's a faulty argument. Sure I did make changes but my overall message hasn't changed. That shouldn't ACTUALLY be a problem because we aren't here to discuss how I use the forum. You are here to talk about the message I'm making. Anet has criteria they use to determine if classes are in a good place. I listed two of those in my first post. Players opinions do not determine what is in a good place or not; That determination is purely a result of Anet's assessment. Again, it's not my assessment that things are in a good place simply because a company is hitting it's marks or because they say so. That's just your misunderstanding of what I wrote. I'm simply giving some criteria for how Anet takes classes to that good place. Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Sure I did make changes but my overall message hasn't changed. That shouldn't ACTUALLY be a problem because we aren't here to discuss how I use the forum. You are here to talk about the message I'm making. Anet has criteria they use to determine if classes are in a good place. I listed two of those in my first post. Players opinions do not determine what is in a good place or not; That determination is purely a result of Anet's assessment. Again, it's not my assessment that things are in a good place simply because a company is hitting it's marks or because they say so. That's just your misunderstanding of what I wrote. I'm simply giving some criteria for how Anet takes classes to that good place. You literally JUST did it again. I was replying to you and then had to stop and go back to quote your initial post from the first page, I come back to page three and your post is now changed and there's a whole new paragraph. Seriously WHY do you do that? Anyway this is what I went back to quote: On 7/29/2023 at 9:46 AM, Obtena.7952 said: 1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants? 2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it? If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. This is this post that started it all. I gave a great example as to why I disagree with it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said: This is this post that started it all. I gave a great example as to why I disagree with it. I know you did. You can disagree with it all you like but Anet has told us these are criteria they use to bring classes to a good place. That's not my opinion that you can argue with me about. Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said: I know you did. You can disagree with it all you like but Anet has told us it's their process. That's not my opinion that you can argue with me about. That's simply how Anet operates because they told us those are criteria they use to making class changes. You're trying to frame it as it's their process when it doesn't matter. Your first point was saying that things are in a good place because the company said so when that's irrelevant to the person you were responding to. They don't dictate that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said: You're trying to frame it as it's their process when it doesn't matter. Your first point was saying that things are in a good place because the company said so when that's irrelevant to the person you were responding to. They don't dictate that. Well, there you go ... trying to tell me what I'm doing again. Again, it's not my opinion that things are in a good place. I'm simply telling what some criteria are that Anet uses to make that determination themselves. You don't think it's relevant to the person I'm responding to? OK ... opinion noted ... and dealt with accordingly. 😉 Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Well, there you go ... trying to tell me what I'm doing again. Again, it's not my opinion that things are in a good place. I'm simply telling what some criteria are that Anet uses to make that determination. You don't think it's relevant to the person I'm responding to? OK ... opinion noted ... and dealt with accordingly. 😉 Just going based on your own words, regardless of whether you go back and change them after the fact. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Just now, Treacy.4067 said: Just going based on your own words Again, just a misunderstanding you are having that I have clarified for you MANY times. It's not my opinion that things are in a good place. I never said they were. I'm simply telling what some criteria are that Anet uses to make that determination themselves. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 59 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Again, just a misunderstanding you are having that I have clarified for you MANY times. It's not my opinion that things are in a good place. I never said they were. I'm simply telling what some criteria are that Anet uses to make that determination themselves. You initial reply where you stated that things are in a good place because Anet says it is, was in response to the people above you saying they didn't listen to feedback. Then you went on and said feedback doesn't factor in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) Please don't allow Obtena to kite yall, and pay attention to their rhetoric. They do this all the time whenever warrior has observable issues with an ethereal argument of "trust Anet to know what's best for the game and that they will constantly ship what is best for the game" when it has been constantly proven that ideas that make classes worse to play make it through all the time (like the banner rework pass 1), and that the forums (both here and reddit) can give indication as to where those problems lie. The argument is vacuous. As much as they may argue otherwise, our input does matter and should shape the game to some extent, because at the end of the day, the game is being made to be enjoyable by as many people as possible. Anet should be made aware when an aspect that was originally more engaging or useful becomes less so through balancing direction. They do not have that information unless people speak up, and assuming they will fix it or move in a direction toward fixing it without mentioning when something is a problem will get interpreted as acceptance. Don't fall into debate holes and direct your attention where it matters. love yall. Edited July 31, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said: You initial reply where you stated that things are in a good place because Anet says it is, was in response to the people above you saying they didn't listen to feedback. No, I stated some criteria that Anet uses to determine if a class is in a good place. I didn't say things were in a good place ever. Another misunderstanding you seem to have. 57 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said: Then you went on and said feedback doesn't factor in. What do you mean? Where did I say this? Nothing you are saying is even close to being accurate to the message I'm repeating to you. It's not my opinion that things are in a good place. I never said they were. I'm simply telling what some criteria are that Anet uses to make that determination themselves. Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: I didn't say things were in a good place ever. Another misunderstanding you seem to have..... What do you mean? Where did I say this? Nothing you are saying is even close to being accurate to the message I'm repeating to you. You literally said: n 7/29/2023 at 9:46 AM, Obtena.7952 said: 1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants? 2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it? If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said: You literally said: 1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants? 2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it? If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. Yes and 1. that isn't my opinion about where things are 2. That's not me saying feedback doesn't factor in. so ... again, your interpretation is just ... way off. Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said: Yes and 1. that isn't my opinion about where things are 2. That's not me saying feedback doesn't factor in. so ... again, your interpretation is just ... way off. Again, you literally said: "The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said: Again, you literally said: "The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place." Yes ... because player opinions are a wide range of different ideas and biases. Anet can't 'measure' player opinion. That doesn't mean opinions don't matter. It just means they matter in a different way than how anet is determining these 'good places'. Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Just now, Obtena.7952 said: Yes ... because player opinions are a wide range of different ideas and biases. Anet can't 'measure' player opinion. You're wrong sorry. Go back and read this thread, yes I know you changed a lot of what you previously posted in edits, but it still doesn't make sense. You replied to those talking about feedback with saying if Anet says it's in a good place then it is and that it's a fact. This is a false premise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Treacy.4067 said: You're wrong sorry. Go back and read this thread, yes I know you changed a lot of what you previously posted in edits, but it still doesn't make sense. You replied to those talking about feedback with saying if Anet says it's in a good place then it is and that it's a fact. This is a false premise. *Hand on shoulder* My guy. The cost of this to your sanity is too great. Save yourself. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said: You replied to those talking about feedback with saying if Anet says it's in a good place then it is and that it's a fact. Actually, that's not true at all. I didn't directly reply to anyone with my initial post. If you think that initial post is direct reply to people talking about feedback, you're imagining that. Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 Just now, Obtena.7952 said: Actually, that's not true at all. I didn't directly reply to anyone with my initial post. If you think that initial post is direct reply to people talking about feedback, you're imagining that. You're trying to wiggle out of it, it's okay to be wrong man geez. You replied to a thread about people saying they felt their feedback wasn't being listened to with you saying their feedback doesn't factor in because Anet said it's in a good place so therefore it is. This doesn't logically make sense. I was simply pointing that out. Now you're denying saying a bunch of stuff lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treacy.4067 Posted July 31, 2023 Share Posted July 31, 2023 3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said: *Hand on shoulder* My guy. The cost of this to your sanity is too great. Save yourself. lol, this person is really doubling down. Maybe they're forgetting what they previously said or something idk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now