It is unbearable

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Treacy.4067 said:

Forget whether they change or don't change based on feedback for a second,

OK

Just now, Treacy.4067 said:

the point is that you saying things are fine simply because a company hits their goals and says so is what's faulty.

Well, I'm saying that Anet has a process that determines 'what is fine'. It's also not faulty to think that the goals come from Anet because customers are simply not going to have a set of comprehensive, non-conflicting goal for Anet to achieve. That's not my opinion. There is nothing to argue with me about here. 

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

That bold and underlined portion there is precisely what they are interpreting it as, though. That is the point of misunderstanding happening between the two of you.

Sure ... I understand that and it's why I have repeated expressed to them this underlined part is not what I'm saying. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK

Well, I'm saying that Anet has a process that determines 'what is fine'. It's also not faulty to think that the goals come from Anet because customers are simply not going to have a set of comprehensive, non-conflicting goal for Anet to achieve. That's not my opinion. There is nothing to argue with me about here. 

What's faulty is using that as an argument though. Can you seriously just go back to the beginning and read the comments leading up to your first comment? Anet's "process" is irrelevant to what those other people were saying and not only that, saying that everything is good if Anet's two conditions are met makes no sense.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Treacy.4067 said:

What's faulty is using that as an argument though. Can you seriously just go back to the beginning and read the comments leading up to your first comment? Anet's "process" is irrelevant to what those other people were saying and not only that, saying that everything is good if Anet's two conditions are met makes no sense.

No, what's faulty is believing I'm making an argument in the first place. There isn't anything to argue about if what is being said is simply the reality of the process Anet uses to make class changes. 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... I understand that and it's why I have repeated expressed to them this underlined part is not what I'm saying. 

Because you're not visibly meeting them in the middle. You're not communicating to them that you understand that or that you understand the issues, you're just putting a cap on the end of your posts with "There is nothing to argue with me about here" which looks dismissive.

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

No, what's faulty is believing I'm making an argument in the first place. There isn't anything to argue about if what is being said is simply the reality of the process Anet uses to make class changes. 

It's your own words! lol

You said:

1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants?

2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. 

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Treacy.4067 said:

It's your own words! lol

You said:

1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants?

2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. 

Sure, it is my own words ... but it's not an argument. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

💀🍿

This thread's going to get to 10 pages with 90% of content being meaningless and not indicative of any kind of suggestion or feedback.

 🪁🪁🪁 , arguing about semantics, the value of feedback and whether or not an argument was made at all, fit for a moderator to close and subsequently ignore.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, it is my own words ... but it's not an argument. 

So you can just tell those above you that their opinions don't factor in and that Anet says things are good and that's the end of it?  Sorry that's not how this works lol. This is absurd.

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Because you're not visibly meeting them in the middle. You're not communicating to them that you understand that or that you understand the issues, you're just putting a cap on the end of your posts with "There is nothing to argue with me about here" which looks dismissive.

EHHH ... that's not really true is it? I have stated MULTIPLE times to them that Anet uses player feedback in their process for class changes; how am I not communicating that I understand player feedback is important? I don't understand the issues? Someone did a good job describing that earlier in the thread. It was a good post, I agree with much of what they said. Even so, does how well I understand the issue change the reality of how Anet does class changes?

It's dismissive because there isn't an argument to be had here. Anet has a process for Class changes. We know some of the criteria they use to decide to make those changes. We know they have a target for 'good place' on classes because they describe things in that way to us. WE even know that player feedback can impact those changes. What is not reasonable is to think that the vast array of widely differing player opinions is part of what determines how Anet defines 'good place' targets for the classes.

To be fair, it's convincible players opinions HAS been a defining factor in 'good places' for classes ... and probably also why balance in this game has been a disaster for it's first 8 years of existence as well (we have seen some evidence of dev favoritism impacting 'balance' in the past) so ... If player opinion is part of that ... it probably SHOULDN'T. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

So you can just tell those above you that their opinions don't factor in and that Anet says things are good and that's the end of it?  Sorry that's not how this works lol. This is absurd.

Sure, It is absurd and I agree because I didn't tell 'those above' that their opinions don't factor into class changes. I said they don't determine the good place targets Anet has for the classes. That's not the same thing. 

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

EHHH ... that's not really true is it? I have stated MULTIPLE times to them that Anet uses player feedback in their process for class changes; how am I not communicating that I understand player feedback is important? I don't understand the issues? Someone did a good job describing that earlier in the thread. It was a good post, I agree with much of what they said. Even so, does how well I understand the issue change the reality of how Anet does class changes?

It's dismissive because there isn't an argument to be had here. Anet has a process for Class changes. We know some of the criteria they use to decide to make those changes. We know they have a target for 'good place' on classes because they describe things in that way to us. WE even know that player feedback can impact those changes. What is not reasonable is to think that the vast array of widely differing player opinions is part of what determines how Anet defines 'good place' targets for the classes.

To be fair, it's convincible players opinions HAS been a defining factor in 'good places' for classes ... and probably also why balance in this game has been a disaster for it's first 8 years of existence as well so ... If player opinion is part of that ... it probably SHOULDN'T. 

You got triggered over a simple point I made at the very beginning then went down a rabbit hole of other stuff. I'm literally saying that your first comment was a bad premise as a response to those that came before you. Again I ask you to read the beginning of the thread so you fully grasp what you said.

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, It is absurd and I agree because I didn't tell 'those above' that their opinions don't factor into class changes. I said they don't determine the good place targets Anet has for the classes. That's not the same thing. 

Sorry didn't mean to double post, meant to put these in the same reply. Anyway, yes you did say this and no amount of you bending over backwards over semantics will change that.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

 Anyway, yes you did say this and no amount of you bending over backwards over semantics will change that.

Again, telling people their opinions do not determine the good place targets for Anet class changes is NOT the same thing as saying people's opinions don't factor into class changes. I can't be more clear to you on this. 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

EHHH ... that's not really true is it? I have stated MULTIPLE times to them that Anet uses player feedback in their process for class changes; how am I not communicating that I understand player feedback is important? I don't understand the issues? Someone did a good job describing that earlier in the thread. It was a good post, I agree with much of what they said. Even so, does how well I understand the issue change the reality of how Anet does class changes?

It's dismissive because there isn't an argument to be had here. Anet has a process for Class changes. We know some of the criteria they use to decide to make those changes. We know they have a target for 'good place' on classes because they describe things in that way to us. WE even know that player feedback can impact those changes. What is not reasonable is to think that the vast array of widely differing player opinions is part of what determines how Anet defines 'good place' targets for the classes.

To be fair, it's convincible players opinions HAS been a defining factor in 'good places' for classes ... and probably also why balance in this game has been a disaster for it's first 8 years of existence as well so ... If player opinion is part of that ... it probably SHOULDN'T. 

Except it hasn't been. It has been less so a part of the process than in recent years, but ANet has muddied everything up so horribly because they have neglected to listen to good feedback, and almost every time that they have listened to feedback it has led to changes that have actually stuck and were actually beneficial and players felt good about, however there are very few instances of those moments...which is a problem because it means they are using data metrics 99% of the time.

Also balance has never been this absurd as today, because there has not been as much bloat with boons in the game ever like this in the past of this games lifespan, its why when PoF rolled around and a massive influx of boon heavy Elite Specs came into the game is where everything got so exacerbated that it started to break the camels back. Firebrand literally defines and embodies that issue and after all of these years it is still that way, the difference these last couple years is every other class has gotten better and better access to boons and all have more reliable means of triggering beneficial effects from their class mechanics while Warrior does not. It literally struggles in both of those areas and yet ANet continues to nerf functions on the class, or make them worse, without providing adequate boon application/reliability for the class, which is something that has been echoed countless times by now as feedback.

Believe it or not, players can often have a larger and better understanding of a devs own game than the devs themselves do. Where do you think meta guides and other in depth information comes from? Not the devs, its from the players, which is why balance from that point becomes a reactive endeavor for the devs instead of a proactive one. Player response, use, and experience and feedback of how classes perform and behave are a large and valuable factor in how the classes themselves interact with the game at large.

ANet is not infallible, they are visibly not infallible and if you think they aren't then I just would recommend you look to where they have flat out admitted to their own failings, and player feedback is exceptionally important to the whole process of a live service game. The way you approach these sorts of topics is dismissive; you dismiss peoples concerns and feedback as not being relevant because they supposedly "ignore" ANets side when it is the exact opposite; the feedback comes from ANet making a mistake or players desiring for ANet to make a change so that things may improve based on the experiences people have with the class.

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, telling people their opinions do not determine the good place targets for Anet class changes is NOT the same thing as saying people's opinions don't factor into class changes. I can't be more clear to you on this. 

Again, you said "The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place."  Based on that and your initial comment "then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you." and others,  you're trying to say you didn't say their opinions don't factor in is nonsense. Again, for the millionth time, it's irrelevant anyway to my initial point but you keep trying to make it about feedback because you can't counter prove that your original premise to be good.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Except it hasn't been. It has been less so a part of the process than in recent years, but ANet has muddied everything up so horribly because they have neglected to listen to good feedback, and almost every time that they have listened to feedback it has led to changes that have actually stuck and were actually beneficial and players felt good about, however there are very few instances of those moments...which is a problem because it means they are using data metrics 99% of the time.

Also balance has never been this absurd as today, because there has not been as much bloat with boons in the game ever like this in the past of this games lifespan, its why when PoF rolled around and a massive influx of boon heavy Elite Specs came into the game is where everything got so exacerbated that it started to break the camels back. Firebrand literally defines and embodies that issue and after all of these years it is still that way, the difference these last couple years is every other class has gotten better and better access to boons and all have more reliable means of triggering beneficial effects from their class mechanics while Warrior does not. It literally struggles in both of those areas and yet ANet continues to nerf functions on the class, or make them worse, without providing adequate boon application/reliability for the class, which is something that has been echoed countless times by now as feedback.

Believe it or not, players can often have a larger and better understanding of a devs own game than the devs themselves do. Where do you think meta guides and other in depth information comes from? Not the devs, its from the players, which is why balance from that point becomes a reactive endeavor for the devs instead of a proactive one. Player response, use, and experience and feedback of how classes perform and behave are a large and valuable factor in how the classes themselves interact with the game at large.

ANet is not infallible, they are visibly not infallible and if you think they aren't then I just would recommend you look to where they have flat out admitted to their own failings, and player feedback is exceptionally important to the whole process of a live service game. The way you approach these sorts of topics is dismissive; you dismiss peoples concerns and feedback as not being relevant because they supposedly "ignore" ANets side when it is the exact opposite; the feedback comes from ANet making a mistake or players desiring for ANet to make a change so that things may improve based on the experiences people have with the class.

OK ... don't fall into the trap these other people have. I'm not passing judgement either way on Anet's process; They make mistakes, they do things we don't like .. BUT, it's the process we have.  I'm not saying we just roll over here and accept whatever but let's not pretend we have all this power to prevent them from doing what they like either. We ('the reasonable players') know where we contribute to that process. At the core, this is a customer/service provider relationship; Anet isn't going to do something just because a whole bunch of angry people want them to. It's got to be seen in their process.

When I see people accusing Anet of being incompetent and ignorant like the OP, that's a go nowhere proposition, no matter HOW good the idea is. 

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Treacy.4067 said:

Again, you said "The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place."  Based on that and your initial comment "then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you." and others,  you're trying to say you didn't say their opinions don't factor in is nonsense. Again, for the millionth time, it's irrelevant anyway to my initial point but you keep trying to make it about feedback because you can't counter prove that your original premise to be good.

Stop ... don't tell me what I'm 'trying' to say to argue with me. I know what I said. I know what I meant. I've clarified that multiple times to ensure I'm not being misrepresented. Again, telling people their opinions do not determine the good place targets for Anet class changes is NOT the same thing as saying people's opinions don't factor into class changes. 

I don't need to prove my original premise is good because it's not a premise. It's just describing some of how Anet's class change process works. 

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Stop ... don't tell me what I'm 'trying' to say to argue with me. I know what I said. I know what I meant. I've clarified that multiple times to ensure I'm not being misrepresented. Again, telling people their opinions do not determine the good place targets for Anet class changes is NOT the same thing as saying people's opinions don't factor into class changes. 

I don't need to prove my original premise is good because it's not a premise. It's just describing some of how Anet's class change process works. 

I'm literally replying to your own words. I just disagree with that very first point but you kept arguing for it. Then you mentioned feedback so I responded to that as well.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Treacy.4067 said:

I'm literally replying to your own words. 

That doesn't mean the reply makes sense. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[KryTiKaL.3125]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... don't fall into the trap these other people have. I'm not passing judgement either way on Anet's process; They make mistakes, they do things we don't like .. BUT, it's the process we have.  I'm not saying we just roll over here and accept whatever but let's not pretend we have all this power to prevent them from doing what they like either. We ('the reasonable players') know where we contribute to that process. At the core, this is a customer/service provider relationship; Anet isn't going to do something just because a whole bunch of angry people want them to. It's got to be seen in their process.

When I see people accusing Anet of being incompetent and ignorant like the OP, that's a go nowhere proposition, no matter HOW good the idea is. 

 

Except the way you present yourself here and in other places is precisely the impression you give off.

These are things that can be affected by player feedback and players feeling like they do have a voice is important to them, and if ANet shows they are ignoring it or players feel like they are ignoring it then that compounds into more and more frustration. There is a reality here that, yes, is exactly as you say...doesn't mean people shouldn't continue to push them, and push them more because the less ANet is perceived to care the more and more people will start speaking up and it may actually inflict some change with enough people speaking out and echoing the same concerns and issues.

Also having played other games and seen the interactions of these other studios with their communities...ANet does look like it does not know what it is doing on these fronts, and it is one of my primary points of issue with ANet as a studio that concerns me the most. Its to a point where I feel like AGS (Amazon Game Studios) has a better communicative and cooperative relationship with their MMORPG communities than ANet does...Amazon. Are they the best or amazing at it? No, no, no and absolutely no. Better than ANet? Yes. Again...Amazon.

[Treacy.4067]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't mean the reply makes sense. 

It's not making sense to you obviously. However, again, a company simply stating things are in a good state doesn't mean it's so. I don't like that you dismissed those other people in the earlier part of the thread, saying "Stop convincing yourself it's about you." or that their opinions don't factor in.  What they say is valid.

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Except the way you present yourself here and in other places is precisely the impression you give off.

These are things that can be affected by player feedback and players feeling like they do have a voice is important to them, and if ANet shows they are ignoring it or players feel like they are ignoring it then that compounds into more and more frustration. There is a reality here that, yes, is exactly as you say...doesn't mean people shouldn't continue to push them, and push them more because the less ANet is perceived to care the more and more people will start speaking up and it may actually inflict some change with enough people speaking out and echoing the same concerns and issues.

Also having played other games and seen the interactions of these other studios with their communities...ANet does look like it does not know what it is doing on these fronts, and it is one of my primary points of issue with ANet as a studio that concerns me the most. Its to a point where I feel like AGS (Amazon Game Studios) has a better communicative and cooperative relationship with their MMORPG communities than ANet does...Amazon. Are they the best or amazing at it? No, no, no and absolutely no. Better than ANet? Yes. Again...Amazon.

See here is my problem really with threads like this. Do we want the forums to be a place where Anet pays attention to what we have to say? I think YES ... I certainly do. 

And yet, we have a numerous threads like this one full of posters, while creating a toxic environment and attributing Anet's class changes to "incompetence and ignorance", complaining Anet doesn't listen to them. Ah, OK then ... 🙄Then someone challenges the Anti-Anet culture that's created by threads like this (and yes, i have no problem admitting to my role in these threads) ... they are the bad actor because they aren't supporting 'what most players want'. It's a good show.  

Edited July 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[KryTiKaL.3125]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

See here is my problem really with threads like this. Do we want the forums to be a place where Anet pays attention to what we have to say? I think YES ... I certainly do. 

And yet, we have a numerous threads like this one full of posters, while creating a toxic environment and attributing Anet's class changes to "incompetence and ignorance", complaining Anet doesn't listen to them. Ah, OK then ... 🙄Then someone challenges the culture that's created by threads like this ... they are the bad actor because they aren't supporting 'what players want'. It's a good show. 

I'm not saying people are correct in being vitriolic or toxic, but you cannot blame them for being as monumentally frustrated as they are. The way you are challenging it looks as if you are being dismissive of the premise, when really if you want to convince them to change how they approach giving the feedback then you need to challenge the way they are doing it directly, not by looking as if you are challenging the entire premise of player feedback and its importance because that is what it looks like to, apparently so, the majority of people here who see your posts.

Sometimes you just need to let people feel out their frustrations or vent them in these spaces, also depending on how you approach these people you may also be able to get them to relax their emotions and help them get to a calmer place to then present their opinions. However you do not do that by looking as if you are being dismissive of their opinions or being dismissive of the entire premise of player feedback.

I've been where you've been in other spaces before, not even with this game, where I've challenged people who are initially presenting all of their frustration and irritation in a not so courteous form and I have never seen them react positively or have a revelation of changing their behavior by anyone being dismissive of what they are saying because that will almost always derail the entire conversation or have it go nowhere productive...as has happened in this very thread.

[Myror.7521]

I must say. I playing Power Zerker some weeks now. Arc Divider in my eyes is right now in a good direction. How ever it still do miss fury for no real reason. Keep in mind a simply "gain 10 Seconds of fury on Hit" would gain Berserker instantly a 60% + crit chance instead of a 40%+ one. For real gain it some Seconds Fury on hit and you might see it used more often outside of PvE instanced stuff.