Help with fighting certain Mechanist builds

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

I'm not sure where to post this. Since this is specific to WvW fights, I figured this is the best place.

This isn't a complaint post about the Mechanist, but rather I'd like more information on what I'm dealing with. Most of the time, this spec isn't too difficult to deal with. The mech can hit really hard (which makes my Ranger heart jealous - but that's a post for another day), but I'm able to put up a good fight even in matches I lose. However there's this particular build that I just can't seem to deal with.

Apart from the mech having high damage, this build also has it so the engi is really tanky, and I'm also knocked back/interrupted in what feels like every 2 to 3 seconds. Oh and they also have high condi damage, but the condi doesn't seem to show in the beginning of the fight. It's almost like my health gets shaved off with normal damage and then when my health is low, I get finished off with the condi plus normal damage. When I'm able to take some health off the engi, they just heal back up and I can't damage them again for several seconds. Pretty sure they were running around with pistol (and most likely shield as a major source of the interrupts).

I have an elite that gives me stability which I've used in these fights. I also have stunbreaks and cleanses. The only times my health suffers this much is if I'm fighting glass cannons (and harbingers with those darned elixirs). I am expecting this being a learn to play issue and I'd like to try out some strategies that other folks have used against Mech builds like this. Thank you~

[Dawdler.8521]

It's generally the long stun that kills you, otherwise mechanist is one of the weakest engineers as the mech itself is dead weight against most targets (works as a projectile stopper I guess). The overall trick is usually to bait out that knockdown and ignore the mech.

With a mid build and power damage you might have a tough time solo because engies are decent at sustaining (if they run sheild, more likely to be a full bunker build). Overwhelm their defenses with a rapid engage or bring a better sustain build which is pretty much any other class.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

18 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

It's generally the long stun that kills you, otherwise mechanist is one of the weakest engineers as the mech itself is dead weight against most targets (works as a projectile stopper I guess). The overall trick is usually to bait out that knockdown and ignore the mech.

With a mid build and power damage you might have a tough time solo because engies are decent at sustaining (if they run sheild, more likely to be a full bunker build). Overwhelm their defenses with a rapid engage or bring a better sustain build which is pretty much any other class.

I do think the stuns are my biggest problem. I typically am able to bounce back from bursts, but I just couldn't with this one. And since they dish out some good condi damage too, then I'm stunned while taking heavy strike damage and getting even more wittled with the condi.

This gives me an idea, so thank you.

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

On 12/31/2023 at 3:28 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

It's generally the long stun that kills you, otherwise mechanist is one of the weakest engineers as the mech itself is dead weight against most targets (works as a projectile stopper I guess). The overall trick is usually to bait out that knockdown and ignore the mech.

With a mid build and power damage you might have a tough time solo because engies are decent at sustaining (if they run sheild, more likely to be a full bunker build). Overwhelm their defenses with a rapid engage or bring a better sustain build which is pretty much any other class.

So, I actually have some follow-up questions for you, if you don't mind. Just going back to the things I bolded in your comment.

Are the mechs typically not good damage dealers? Because IMO, if something is able to shred people's health down, I feel like that's not dead weight at all and pose an actual threat. Especially if it isn't easy to kill. I've tried focusing on the mechs before, thinking they'd be as easy to kill as ranger pets are, and found out that wasn't the case. I've seen other people suggest stunning the mechs, so I'm wondering if that's still a viable thing to do as if one's taking too much damage from them?

In terms of sustain, a friend of mine with minstrel's gear who was able to down the engi still ended up dying from the mech (his health still got really low by the point he was able to down the engi, but the mech pretty much finished him off). I guess I'm just not sure if it's as simple as having higher sustain.

For what it's worth, the Mechanists that urged me to make this post in the first place was 2v5-ing folks at various points (aka were not fighting the same players/classes/builds), were able to down several people, and 3 of us was needed to kill the engi when their health finally dipped down to below 25%. Now that I'm thinking about it more, perhaps these guys just aren't your average bunker Mechanists 😆

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

Are the mechs typically not good damage dealers? Because IMO, if something is able to shred people's health down, I feel like that's not dead weight at all and pose an actual threat. Especially if it isn't easy to kill. I've tried focusing on the mechs before, thinking they'd be as easy to kill as ranger pets are, and found out that wasn't the case. I've seen other people suggest stunning the mechs, so I'm wondering if that's still a viable thing to do as if one's taking too much damage from them?

Well I'm not an anti-mech expert but I would never focus any pet unless it's a really good opportunity (ie you cant hit the engie because he line of sighting constantly and the mech happen to be on you or something). Stuns usually dont last long enough to matter for pets, you want that stun for the engie itself.

2 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

In terms of sustain, a friend of mine with minstrel's gear who was able to down the engi still ended up dying from the mech (his health still got really low by the point he was able to down the engi, but the mech pretty much finished him off). I guess I'm just not sure if it's as simple as having higher sustain.

Lol minstrel isnt sustain that's full bunker. Sustain still have some damage orientation (ie trailblazers, celestial, hybrid combos with around 2800+ armor etc). The build isnt magically going to solve the problem but if even a minstrel could take one down, obviously it helped in that case.

2 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

For what it's worth, the Mechanists that urged me to make this post in the first place was 2v5-ing folks at various points (aka were not fighting the same players/classes/builds), were able to down several people, and 3 of us was needed to kill the engi when their health finally dipped down to below 25%. Now that I'm thinking about it more, perhaps these guys just aren't your average bunker Mechanists 😆

Usually this is the result of the 2 being highly coordinated and some of the 5 being utterly useless by bringing the "wrong" builds, so it's not really a 2v5 in terms of effective players. Pretty much any class combo can do this (and there are far, far worse combos than 2 mechanists). There is no magical answer to how to fight them but it's often a matter of splitting them up and getting the "right" builds to fight them... or rather getting them to focus on the "wrong" build so that the real damage dealers can work without getting splattered. At such low numbers if you loose even one potentially effective player early (ie usually the glassier ones) you can be done for. There is a reason why class/build/skill identification and quickly swapping targets in combat is critical. Unless the mechs where identical twins, one of them was probably the weaker link. 

Usually when I end up in a situation like this it's hard the first fight and much easier the following fights even if it's not always successfull. It's not really a matter of l2p and suddenly have skills, just adapting to them and not making stupid mistakes.

[KrHome.1920]

Addition to what Dawdler said:

If a 5v2 is not a walk in the park, then it's a l2p issue. GW2 is unbalanced in lots of 1v1 scenarios, but a 2v1 or 3v2 should always (!) be won by the larger group, even when not communicating via voice. Losing a 5v2 is ridiculous. You have to misbuild and misplay hard to make that happen.

Edited January 2 by KrHome.1920

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Addition to what Dawdler said:

If a 5v2 is not a walk in the park, then it's a l2p issue. GW2 is unbalanced in lots of 1v1 scenarios, but a 2v1 or 3v2 should always (!) be won by the larger group, even when not communicating via voice. Losing a 5v2 is ridiculous. You have to misbuild and misplay hard to make that happen.

Saying that a 2v1 or 3v2 should "always be won" is what is absolutely ridiculous. Players are better than that and you should know that. Just poorly matched up builds alone is enough to make a difference and that's before even accounting for skill and combat situation. It's very easy to have a good engage on a pair of unsuspecting players. Especially since many builds have literal nukes that when not avoided and not mitigated is a death sentence.

WvW is far to random to assume that every fight is a duel between exact equals where both sides see each other coming and only numbers matter.

Loosing 5v2 is a bit more embarassing but again the coordination of those two is vital. If it's two good players that has tons of boon support to each other loosing it is no different from a 25 man nearly impossible to penetrate boonball walking all over a 50 man haphazardly gathered random PUG zerg. If those 2 roamers can focus a pair of them - often because people try to stack up as they learned from zerging - it can quickly turn into a 3v2 and if you know you would have had enough of a hard fight at 5v2... yeah... you just lost the fight.

To give a typical example, I fought a reaper the other day that was basicly impossible for me to beat 1v1. I just couldnt do it and trust me, I tried. I even had a good engage. He just had an absurd amount of damage and sustain. The first time we fought it probably ended in less than 30 seconds. Reapers dont generally give me problems - they are much easier targets than harbingers and heck I've met core necros that's much harder than the average reaper. But this one nope. He flipped the table in my face.

A while later I met him fighting another player (not sure what class, maybe ele) and went 2v1 on him. Guess what? Still couldnt beat him. That other player died and I ended up having a 1v1 again - this time far more cautious than the first. Probably 1-2 minutes of brawling back and forth later, the same player return and we went 2v1 again... And he eventually died again. I went 1v1 and probably fought for another 5 minutes or something, it seemed like ages and had so much kiting. I got him down in HP, he got me down, we both got back up and so it continued. But he got me.

Then I ran back towards the area I knew he would be in and he was fighting another player (not the one from earlier). So I engaged again. And we got him. But not before he kitten near got me again, we basicly only got him because he turned and focused me. It was close. If I had downed, he probably would have killed the other guy too. 

Some stupid people will keep saying "OmG 1v1 mE bRO!1!"

To them I say... This is WvW.

[KrHome.1920]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Saying that a 2v1 or 3v2 should "always be won" is what is absolutely ridiculous.

I said two things: 

• A 3v2 and 2v1 should be won by the larger group.
• You have to misplay and misbuild hard to lose a 5v2.

Now if you apply logic to what I said you come to the conclusion that "should" in my first statement does not mean "have to, even if misplaying and misbuilding" but something like "at equal skill levels" or "on competently crafted builds" etc. Otherwise the second statement would be a redundant addition.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, KrHome.1920 said:

I said two things: 

• A 3v2 and 2v1 should be won by the larger group.
• You have to misplay and misbuild hard to lose a 5v2.

Now if you apply logic to what I said you come to the conclusion that "should" in my first statement does not mean "have to, even if misplaying and misbuilding" but something like "at equal skill levels" or "on competently crafted builds" etc. Otherwise the second statement would be a redundant addition.

I mean you even wrote “always (!)” with your own exclamation mark emphasis so that’s kind of twisting in a knot over your own words…

[meerfunkuhtron.9725]

On 1/1/2024 at 11:25 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well I'm not an anti-mech expert but I would never focus any pet unless it's a really good opportunity (ie you cant hit the engie because he line of sighting constantly and the mech happen to be on you or something). Stuns usually dont last long enough to matter for pets, you want that stun for the engie itself.

Lol minstrel isnt sustain that's full bunker. Sustain still have some damage orientation (ie trailblazers, celestial, hybrid combos with around 2800+ armor etc). The build isnt magically going to solve the problem but if even a minstrel could take one down, obviously it helped in that case.

Usually this is the result of the 2 being highly coordinated and some of the 5 being utterly useless by bringing the "wrong" builds, so it's not really a 2v5 in terms of effective players. Pretty much any class combo can do this (and there are far, far worse combos than 2 mechanists). There is no magical answer to how to fight them but it's often a matter of splitting them up and getting the "right" builds to fight them... or rather getting them to focus on the "wrong" build so that the real damage dealers can work without getting splattered. At such low numbers if you loose even one potentially effective player early (ie usually the glassier ones) you can be done for. There is a reason why class/build/skill identification and quickly swapping targets in combat is critical. Unless the mechs where identical twins, one of them was probably the weaker link. 

Usually when I end up in a situation like this it's hard the first fight and much easier the following fights even if it's not always successfull. It's not really a matter of l2p and suddenly have skills, just adapting to them and not making stupid mistakes.

Thank you for this, and fair point on the minstrel gear (and I definitely might be mixing up my terms).
I did try fighting one of them alone and I still just lost completely. My build could certainly be the culprit, but at this point, I'm finding that I'm ok with losing against these folks since most players I saw fighting them were getting beaten. My minstrel-wearing guildie who was able to at least down one can still put out some high damage along with his various CCs (he's a hammer untamed), which I'm sure helped a lot in this case. But again, still lost 'cause of the bot lol Only happened one time though, as every other time they fought, my guildie lost and sometimes fairly quickly too. Hence this post!

Might just have to wait until we go against this particular build again, to try and figure out what exactly is their weakness (outside of probably other bunker builds with the ability to dish out a really good amount of damage). Will have to keep in mind what's been mentioned here so I have a better idea for the next encounters.

Edited January 5 by meerfunkuhtron.9725