Alac Mirage Build Inflexibility: Suggestions

[Micah.3789]

Mirage is effectively required to use a staff on both bars, with Sigil or Energy in each PLUS a trait just to provide 100% uptime of alacrity. Depending on boon duration, you'll also need utility and healing slot skills. Compared to every other boon spec in the game, this is overly taxing and incredibly limiting to the build. Providing quickness/alacrity should have trade-offs, but this feels more like a build jail. Even if you can stomach all that, alac mirage still underperforms compared to other boondps due to inconsistency in clone uptime and slow ramp up on dps. 

Okay, but why do we need two staffs? Let's say you're using a staff but with a different secondary weapon and your weapon swap is off CD. You hopefully have less than 50 endurance, but likely not 0 before you swap. You immediately generate 50 endurance with the sigil (1 bar), and over the 10s that you're waiting on the swap CD you generate 75 more. You swap back to staff only to generate another 50 endurance. We only have a max endurance threshold of 100 so in this case we'd waste 75-100+ endurance not using staff ambushes. That's ~2 ambushes worth of alacrity you simply can't get without a second staff, and Mirage Mantle's alacrity duration is balanced around getting every single ambush possible on staff.

• The obvious solution that's already been mentioned elsewhere is to have Mirage Mantle provide alacrity on any Ambush skill, not just chaos vortex. This would be most in line with how other classes provide boons, but it may also require the most balance to compensate. Seeing as this could be a lot of work and possible upset, I kind of understand why it has been avoided.

Alternatively, ambush generation and alacrity duration could be targeted to free up the option to use one other weapon in addition to staff. Mirage has more of its power budget tied up in dodges than any other spec, yet has no endurance generation through traits. It therefore requires skills and equipment just to reach the minimum number of ambushes to maintain alacrity. Sigil of Energy is the major offender here, providing 2 dodges every 20s, but requiring weapon swapping on CD.

My suggestion:

• Decouple Mirage's reliance on Sigil of Energy by reducing it from 50 to 25 endurance and compensate with changes to traits for endurance and alacrity. If done right, current builds should be unaffected beyond more comfortable alacrity uptime, while alternative builds could choose to sacrifice overall ambushes for a secondary weapon and sigil flexibility. We'd need 50 endurance per 20s to compensate for the sigil change and the easiest way to do that would be a flat 50% endurance regen increase on a minor trait, but it could be something more creative. Something like 'Movement skills grant 50 endurance when used' on a 20s ICD could be added to Speed of Sand to bolster an underpowered trait while still keeping its theme. Mirage Mantle personal alacrity duration should be increased from 2.5s to at least 3-3.5s to allow for one less ambush in 20s without dropping alacrity. 

While this suggestion is mostly for the overall health of the spec, note that it would also make a staff/rifle heal mirage possible.

[bq pd.2148]

5 minutes ago, Micah.3789 said:

My suggestion:

• Decouple Mirage's reliance on Sigil of Energy by reducing it from 50 to 25 endurance and compensate with changes to traits for endurance and alacrity. If done right, current builds should be unaffected beyond more comfortable alacrity uptime

current alac mirage in pve group content might not be affected.
a change to a sigil affects anyone using it anywhere in PvE and where this one is used a lot more: WvW.

while staff is still anywhere in that build the ramp up will still be slow anyway so it will continue to underperform, dont need to nerf a very commonly used sigil for that.

[Mevelios.4809]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

while staff is still anywhere in that build the ramp up will still be slow anyway so it will continue to underperform, dont need to nerf a very commonly used sigil for that.

I have to agree - it feels like the sort of nerf (at least here for a trade-off, unlike my coming example) that happened to the relic of Karakosa, being nerfed because it was overperforming on... revenant's mace. A single case impacted everyone.

Without giving it much thought, the first thing that comes to mind for me consists in as simple a solution as making Mirage mantle give alacrity on any ambush, however with the loss of its few interesting effets there could simply be a complete rework of Mirrored axes. Let's be real: without the trait, the weapon doesn't shine, meaning it's great on mirage and barely average on all other (e-)specs without mentioning its ambush. The trait has already seen its CD reduction made baseline; the remaining effect could also be made as such, and maybe we could have a nice surprise on chrono thanks to it?

In return, with that major master trait made available, another trait could be created to boost weapons' efficiency in various forms. It's uninspired but it could be extra conditions on those related, strike power on the others, and why not boons on a few exceptions? I'm thinking there of the rifle primarily, to have a quickness option instead of that meaningless fury. I'd think the same about scepter & staff, but it could deny them the possibility of being run as damage dealing options... Maybe something worth considering?

There are future weapon proficiencies to consider as well. I'd love to see underwater weapons be made available on dry land so they actually see some use, but also at least one more support option especially to get out of the Illusionary defense must-have for protection (and thus by extension, mirage mantle's synergy with it). Tying it to a weapon isn't my favorite way to adress it, but it could at least open possibilites; some ideas I had for a duet mace+warhorn, but I'd rather post them later!

Edited March 5 by Mevelios.4809

[Micah.3789]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

current alac mirage in pve group content might not be affected.
a change to a sigil affects anyone using it anywhere in PvE and where this one is used a lot more: WvW.

Do you have any examples of builds where Sigil of Energy is used in a way that's healthy for design and balance? I can't think of a single example where reducing it to 25 endurance would be unhealthy for the game. There's a reason it's already 25 in PvP.

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

while staff is still anywhere in that build the ramp up will still be slow anyway so it will continue to underperform, dont need to nerf a very commonly used sigil for that.

This reads very biased. It sounds like you're suggesting that mirage isn't worth fixing, at least not at the cost of another build. Which again, I ask if any of those affected builds should be preserved?

27 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I have to agree - it feels like the sort of nerf (at least here for a trade-off, unlike my coming example) that happened to the relic of Karakosa, being nerfed because it was overperforming on... revenant's mace. A single case impacted everyone.

Karakosa was overtuned in general, not just on revenant mace. It's still incredibly powerful even after this "nerf." Revenant mace was adjusted separately for providing too many blast finishers, which was also justified. Not a good example at all.

[Mevelios.4809]

25 minutes ago, Micah.3789 said:

Not a good example at all.

My exact thought about nerfing the Sigil of energy on everyone, for the sake of a single e-spec that is mirage, because "I waste half of that bonus on my way of playing it while waiting for weapon swap CD". Note that any boon strip on you, for the few occurrences there are in PvE, do reduce the amount wasted; as for the meta builds I don't play that include dodging as a mechanic to deal damages (daredevil, vindicator) sure they could afford it as they don't need it today, but maybe some players out there actually found use for it or rely on that tool to solo content if we're only talking about PvE. I won't talk about WvW, because indeed it seems overperforming to my taste, but I'm not a fan of that game mode that's already plagued by several other unhealthy builds.

In any case, I don't think that sigil is the primary issue about "alac mirage build inflexibility", because should the change be only made to the sigil for whatever compensation again related only to mirage, we'd still be stuck with at least the staff in one weapon set. Let's give more leeway for everyone to have their fun by getting out of that must-, or should I say "only-have".

Edited March 6 by Mevelios.4809

[Curunen.8729]

I'm all in favour of moving away from the glorified reload button gameplay - I would prefer more diversity in encouraging weapon swap for different weapons in pve. Changing energy sigils and adventurer relic to pvp versions would be a start. Then allowing some direct endurance refund via other skills and maybe a trait would be nice to mix up the button variety rather than dodge 1 dodge 1 reload dodge 1 etc monotonous nonsense.

Tbh I'd prefer to delete alacrity so deception cooldowns in wvw can be brought back to pve levels, because otherwise there is a massive difference in having cele staff with alacrity and having any other weapon set.

But equally I won't say no to alacrity on all ambushes so that all mirage builds in wvw can have decent cooldowms on utilities - jaunt, IA and blink certainly.

[draxynnic.3719]

I'll repeat what I've been saying since alacmirage was introduced:

Stop trying to make Dune Cloak competition for IH as a damage trait, and make it the alacrity trait.

Alacmirage is no longer locked to a specific weapon, and alacmirage can be balanced versus pure DPS mirage by adjusting the damage from clone ambushes.

[Micah.3789]

3 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

My exact thought about nerfing the Sigil of energy on everyone, for the sake of a single e-spec that is mirage, because "I waste half of that bonus on my way of playing it while waiting for weapon swap CD".

Did you genuinely misunderstand me so terribly or was that a sad attempt at a straw man argument? I detailed a hypothetical situation in which one could attempt to maintain alacrity while using an alternative secondary weapon, and how it would be impossible to maintain alacrity in that case because of Sigil of Energy's functionality. 

I don't personally do that. I use 2x staff, because I have to. That's the point. It's terrible design to require a weapon swap, but then deny the benefits of the weapon swap by requiring it to be the same weapon. 

3 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

In any case, I don't think that sigil is the primary issue about "alac mirage build inflexibility", because should the change be only made to the sigil for whatever compensation again related only to mirage, we'd still be stuck with at least the staff in one weapon set. Let's give more leeway for everyone to have their fun by getting out of that must-, or should I say "only-have".

You should really re-read the original post. I mentioned alacrity on all ambushes as the first and obvious solution. The change to the sigil was offered as an alternative compromise should that be rejected. We really should get both changes for the health of the spec, but even if we only get the sigil change we'd at least be able to take a different secondary weapon without dropping alacrity.

3 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I'm all in favour of moving away from the glorified reload button gameplay - I would prefer more diversity in encouraging weapon swap for different weapons in pve. Changing energy sigils and adventurer relic to pvp versions would be a start. Then allowing some direct endurance refund via other skills and maybe a trait would be nice to mix up the button variety rather than dodge 1 dodge 1 reload dodge 1 etc monotonous nonsense.

Tbh I'd prefer to delete alacrity so deception cooldowns in wvw can be brought back to pve levels, because otherwise there is a massive difference in having cele staff with alacrity and having any other weapon set.

But equally I won't say no to alacrity on all ambushes so that all mirage builds in wvw can have decent cooldowms on utilities - jaunt, IA and blink certainly.

Totally agree on the first bit. Maybe alacrity is just another boon that should get a competitive split. Mirage Mantle staff could easily give something else in WvW.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'll repeat what I've been saying since alacmirage was introduced:

Stop trying to make Dune Cloak competition for IH as a damage trait, and make it the alacrity trait.

Alacmirage is no longer locked to a specific weapon, and alacmirage can be balanced versus pure DPS mirage by adjusting the damage from clone ambushes.

That's a pretty good idea, but then axe would just become the default alacdps weapon since you'd still be able to take Mirrored Axes. Could certainly prevent that with more changes to Mirage Mantle or other weapon balance, but that seems like a lot of work. Doubt the devs would go for it. 

[Micah.3789]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Stop trying to make Dune Cloak competition for IH as a damage trait, and make it the alacrity trait.

Actually, this is brilliant. Consider this:

• Dune Cloak becomes the new Alacrity trait as you suggest. Grants it on any Ambush skill. Alacrity on Mirage Mantle is replaced with.. whatever.
• Desert Distortion replaced with the new effect they're planning to put on Dune Cloak since they're kind of redundant anyway. It could spawn a Mirage Mirror "when you shatter 2 or more clones," combining both traits effectively.

*Edit: Forgot to mention that this could generate more ambushes, which could compensate for my proposed nerf to Sigil of Energy

Edited March 6 by Micah.3789

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Micah.3789 said:

That's a pretty good idea, but then axe would just become the default alacdps weapon since you'd still be able to take Mirrored Axes. Could certainly prevent that with more changes to Mirage Mantle or other weapon balance, but that seems like a lot of work. Doubt the devs would go for it. 

I don't think it's a bad thing if axe is the default weapon for melee condition mesmers. It's what it's designed to do, after all, as long as it doesn't get to the point of being SO strong that axe/X and axe/Y becomes the default. If they're trying to make powermirage something that's more than something you do for fun, that would also be an alternative. 

1 hour ago, Micah.3789 said:

Actually, this is brilliant. Consider this:

• Dune Cloak becomes the new Alacrity trait as you suggest. Grants it on any Ambush skill. Alacrity on Mirage Mantle is replaced with.. whatever.
• Desert Distortion replaced with the new effect they're planning to put on Dune Cloak since they're kind of redundant anyway. It could spawn a Mirage Mirror "when you shatter 2 or more clones," combining both traits effectively.

*Edit: Forgot to mention that this could generate more ambushes, which could compensate for my proposed nerf to Sigil of Energy

I hadn't thought about merging the March 17 Dune Cloak with Desert Distortion, but that's a really good idea too. Would probably help address some of the issues with balancing Mirage in competitive modes, too, since instead of having one button that potentially gives you four seconds of distortion plus three mirrors, it would make it more consistent and more spread out over several shatters.

[bq pd.2148]

9 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Do you have any examples of builds where Sigil of Energy is used in a way that's healthy for design and balance? I can't think of a single example where reducing it to 25 endurance would be unhealthy for the game. There's a reason it's already 25 in PvP.

what is considered healthy for design and balance is pure opinion and you will find for almost anything in the game people that will consider it unhealthy.
yes it is 25 in sPvP, there is also a reason why WvW does not and should not use sPvP balance and arguable too much of sPvP balance has been ported over to WvW already.

in larger scale combat the proper use active defenses reduces the load on the supports and potentially allows for slightly more offensive composition. current meta already heavily favors numbers and reducing active defenses by nerfing energy will further that trend.

9 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

This reads very biased. It sounds like you're suggesting that mirage isn't worth fixing, at least not at the cost of another build.

i would like mirage being fixed i just dont think your suggestion will be able to do that and that means any cost is too much for it.
i would prefer if the ramp up time for condition mirage using staff is reduced and if alacrity was moved off the staff to be usable with any weapon, potentially even power mirage builds.

 

as you already said in you initial post:

10 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

The obvious solution that's already been mentioned elsewhere is to have Mirage Mantle provide alacrity on any Ambush skill, not just chaos vortex. This would be most in line with how other classes provide boons, but it may also require the most balance to compensate.

this requiring a lot of work i dont see as good enough a reason to avoid fixing it properly.
every weapon providing alac would mean that there would need to be a competing DPS choice as a tradeoff, like reworked mirrored axes to provide a DPS increase to any weapon choice.

another problem with mirage mantle right now is also that it gives 25% damage to GS ambush because of which it now does not get buffed to be on par with dagger/sword ambushes on march 19. GS ambush will have a coefficient of 2.55 and the other two 3.0. but it is not like those two weapons dont get anything else from that trait, they just get that damage increase build in for free.

Edited March 6 by bq pd.2148

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

another problem with mirage mantle right now is also that it gives 25% damage to GS ambush because of which it now does not get buffed to be on par with dagger/sword ambushes on march 19. GS ambush will have a coefficient of 2.55 and the other two 3.0. but it is not like those two weapons dont get anything else from that trait, they just get that damage increase build in for free.

Maybe Mirage Mantle on greatsword could produce two more beams? Would be a way to make it stronger without increasing the damage against the golem.

[Micah.3789]

10 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

what is considered healthy for design and balance is pure opinion and you will find for almost anything in the game people that will consider it unhealthy.

People disagreeing doesn't discredit discernable metrics. Gaining 50 endurance on weapon swap is overloaded on classes with dodge synergies, especially mirage. The damage gained is significantly higher than other sigils, in addition to providing active defense, in addition to proccing related traits. Simply put, it breaks the power budget. Maybe mirage, daredevil, and vindicator are the only ones that get the 25 endurance sigil change (maybe elementalist if you count evasive arcana).

10 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

requiring a lot of work i dont see as good enough a reason to avoid fixing it properly.
every weapon providing alac would mean that there would need to be a competing DPS choice as a tradeoff, like reworked mirrored axes to provide a DPS increase to any weapon choice.

I agree, maybe I'm just too quick to compromise. My intention was to provide an alternative considering the devs seem to be rejecting the idea of removing alacrity from staff exclusivity. 

10 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

another problem with mirage mantle right now is also that it gives 25% damage to GS ambush because of which it now does not get buffed to be on par with dagger/sword ambushes on march 19. GS ambush will have a coefficient of 2.55 and the other two 3.0. but it is not like those two weapons dont get anything else from that trait, they just get that damage increase build in for free.

Absolutely true. Doesn't make sense that GS alone should have to trait for damage. Another disparity is that clones do sizeable power damage with Split Surge, but no other Ambush skills. I think that Infinite Horizon should cause all clone ambushes to do some moderate power damage relative to the personal version. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 30%.

[bq pd.2148]

2 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

People disagreeing doesn't discredit discernable metrics. Gaining 50 endurance on weapon swap is overloaded on classes with dodge synergies, especially mirage. The damage gained is significantly higher than other sigils, in addition to providing active defense, in addition to proccing related traits. Simply put, it breaks the power budget. Maybe mirage, daredevil, and vindicator are the only ones that get the 25 endurance sigil change (maybe elementalist if you count evasive arcana).

in larger scale i would say energy is most valuable on necro for its lack of active defenses and movement skills.

while roaming will never be balanced as it lacks the context to balance it in, unlike spvp with its nodes and points that you can balance around, energy on any class aside from mirage needs you to dodge something significant with it to compete with the likes of hydromancy, vision, doom, geomancy, strength. and for defense cleansing is situationally better and certainly has a lower skillfloor to get use out of.
now mirage however wouldnt even lose endurance with your suggestions as you also suggested it to be compensated elsewhere. especially the option with speed of sand would allow for more ambushes spammed without the need to swap weapon which i would say is stronger than current energy sigil. so you would nerf everyone else using energy sigil but not the mirage who in my opinion is profiting the most from it in roaming (well maybe tied with deadeye)

i do however feel like this is slowly getting lost too much in details about the suggestion and no longer on topic of alacrity mirages build inflexibility. on the main point i think we agree that a untying alac from staff would be the favorable option.

maybe not only alac but also the might/fury need to be moved off staff together to boost staff condi application and so you can apply all 3 with any weapon to the group if playing boon support.