Another set of weapons, another set of disappointments

[Purple Effects.2503]

1 hour ago, vardeleanu.8972 said:

Sounds like cope to make the spear seem like it was needed

I can agree with ur initial post, rev and warrior spears need immediate rethinking, however I’m sorry but I don’t think all the weapons coming are immediately bad either. 

it’s not cope, not everything has to be some brand new concept the class couldn’t access prior, it leads to a situation where u have loads of builds with only 1 weapon option lol

[Batalix.2873]

On 6/24/2024 at 7:06 AM, vardeleanu.8972 said:

First of all, 1200 range at most on every spear. It's funny how ranger can keep stealing things like ambushes and stealth attacks from other classes but the 1500 range is so vehemently gatekept to the light green class. It's especially infuriating how they kept mentioning it during the elementalist part, as if it was some kind of reward that we finally get a "good" ranged weapon, as if it's not their fault staff is absolute cold garbage, ,hammer and pistol are placeholder weapons that literally nobody asked for, and conjures were buried in the backyard when nobody was looking. After having 3 expansions to develop a proper elementalist weapon, I'd expect more then single target 1200 range auto attack when ranger can get 1500 range piercing attacks. The fire auto attack doesn't even have burning, kitten. Not even going to touch on how it's supposed to be a dps weapon but the shortest cooldown fire field is 20 seconds, how are we supposed to keep up Persisting Flames with that ? I really expected more. The work of the art team was insane, but the work of the skill design team was the usual .

Next, warrior : the class whose ENTIRE THING is strength. That's warriors identity, they literally have nothing else than being a strong and somewhat tanky meat shield for other classes, doing big non-magical damage, and being a weapon master that brings the best non-magical aspect out of any weapon. That's their fantasy.

So doesn't it make sense that the class that whose identity is being strong weapon master should throw the spear further than, I don't know, ANYONE ELSE ? In fact, warrior spear is such a letdown that I think it speaks for itself more than anything I can say here, and it's definitely not the fault of the art team, who has once again shown that they are always getting better and it's only a matter of actually paying them to make new animations for once. It's the fault of the skill design team playing favorites again. 

Since this post started with talking about ranger gatekeeping range, let's return to that for a second : no ranged stealth attack for theif ? really ?

Ranger gets 4 options of stealth attacks, and thief gets only 1 for 2 auto attacks. Amazing. Which one of those was the assassin class anyway ? I know it's a primary melee weapon, but it just feels lazy that the normal attack has 2 forms and the stealth doesn't. Even if the ranged stealth attack would have been weaker, something that hits only once for 1/3 the conditions and damage of the melee stealth attack, it's still would have been better than getting nothing because my stealth ran out while running after my target. 

While on the topic of thief spear auto attack, I'll also mention the only complaint I have with the art for the new set of spears : Why do theifs spin their spears in melee range ? It's a spear, and we're a quick agile assassin class, just poke your target with the kitten thing. The spin worked on staff because dardevil led itself to the monk type fighter, but having a theif SPIN a spear doesn't fit thematically, is impractical (how doesn't the spear break ?  impracticality might be a recurring theme for theif with tactical strike and pistol whip, but those came out 12 years ago) and overall makes no sense. Pls replace it with a quick jab animation from the spear from one of the other classes, or the warrior sword 3 animation at least.

Also, why is revenant spear so slow ? It's aoe focused, it's a pve weapon anyway, it being so slow just makes it feel bad to use. And revenants already have 2 condition oriented sets, with torment being their choice of condition, so I think this weapon will land nicely right next to engineer shortbow in the "why would I ever use this" drawer.

That's all I had to say, since those are the classes I play and those things stuck out to me, but I can't say I'm looking forward to the weapon beta considering the preview and the history of (lack of) adjustments according to beta feedback.

Downvoted because (1) Spear is a versatile weapon, it shouldn't be 1200 range on all the classes and they did a very good job expressing this, and (2) Rev is totally fine being a slow bruiser, it just needs more benefits/incentives for the speed and range tradeoff. It's in my top three best feeling weapons currently, I like it lots, and it makes a lot of sense with how Rev tends to turn weapons on their ends.

THAT said, I do agree:

1. Ranger having de facto 1500 range is stupid. But I also really like Deadeye being the only class with 1500 range with a mobility tradeoff. So either Ranger longbow should be hardcode limited to 1200 range, or otherwise I think we need to reconsider range generally. Make all longbows and rifles 1500 range, and make Deadeye, I don't know, 2000 range? We know the game can handle it. The idea that Warrior can throw a spear or Ranger can shoot a longbow as far as a sniper is silly, I won't be making more exceptions for Warrior just because Ranger has it.

2. Ranger spear having that much stealth is also silly to me, but I take it more as an invitation for the other professions' spears to move into other jobs' territory. So I'm less peeved that Ranger got a stealth weapon, and more that most of the other spears don't really bend their profession rules enough. Necro is the most offensive; it is just another chill power weapon when the COOL thing would be to give spear some burning and maybe some poison on top of the chill; it clearly got the short end of the stick in comparison to Thief and Revenant. Thief at least got the most modular kit to date AND a block, which is a bit out of its wheelhouse. I think Ranger, Thief, and Revenant (and mayyybe Ele's symbols) do the best job stealing from other parts of the design pie.

3. Yes, at least one class should be poking the enemy with the spear with an autoattack. Thief is far and away the best candidate for that animation.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:57 PM, Magmi.6723 said:

why? Because you can only throw a spear once, lol. That’s just factual I’m afraid. The likelihood the spear was popular was because its melee offensive ability, ease of building and having ranged capability, and without the requirement of ammunition could be carried along side swords when it had been expended.  

People using throwing spears usually carried more than one. I think legionnaires typically carried three pilae. Peltasts would usually carry a bunch in their shield hand. Very definitely a case of only having a few they could throw before having to charge or fall back, though: but that's probably all they're realistically going to be able to throw anyway because of having to get closer than you would have to with a bow. Both unit types generally worked on the basis of being able to operate as skirmishers against heavier infantry, while being better equipped for a melee fight than archers, slingers, and the like tended to be.

On 6/27/2024 at 11:28 PM, Magmi.6723 said:

Dunno Mesmer spear gives the class access to cleave, which it hasn’t had much of anything at all in regards to, 

otherwise eh, I don’t think stand alone weapons should be aimed to cover something the professions needed, Soto tried this and it really didn’t work out well for them. I just don’t think a singular weapon has enough cogs to turn to make functional if the current existing builds can’t support it, unless smaller alike this, such as giving a melee class more ranged options. 

I think considering the needs of the profession as a whole is important when making weapons for the health of the profession. A weapon that doesn't fit in with what the profession wants to do isn't going to work well, and the profession as a whole suffers when there's an option it really needs that it doesn't really have.

In fact, I'd argue that the biggest failures with the SotO weapons are the ones that ignored what the profession was actually lacking. Elementalist pistol? Sceptre was working perfectly fine for ranged condi DPS. Engineer shortbow? Engineer support players were happy with what they had. Guardian pistol? They filled the hole of a ranged condi weapon, then gave it a mechanic to force it to go into melee, and loaded so much damage onto it that it pushed the weapons that were supposed to be the melee condi weapons out. Necromancer swords? A power offhand was needed, a ranged power mainhand wasn't on anyone's wishlist with axe already doing fairly well. Revenant sceptre? Rev supports were happy using mace to blast fields until that got nerfed to make room for sceptre, people wanted a ranged option. Thief axe? Thief already had suitable ranged weapons - I guess axe has more cleave than most, but not enough to really consider it an AoE weapon, so it was always going to be either better than the existing weapons, or worse.

The weapons that really succeeded were those that filled a hole. Necromancer offhand sword gets used because there wasn't really a good power offhand before. Mesmer was just on the cusp of having a healing build - rifle plus a few trait buffs pushed it over the line, and while the people who just wanted another DPS weapon might not like it, it was revolutionary for the support players. Ranger mace mainhand gives healing rangers an option to swap to from staff, while the offhand is a good power offhand (although that is something of an exception since offhand axe exists, but having two options is good for weaponswaps). Warrior probably needs an elite specialisation to really make for a good healer, but staff at least attempting to provide a tool to close that gap has still made it one of the best warrior weapons for any situation that doesn't call for just maximising DPS.

The weapons that really succeed are those that fill a need or that open up new options. Weapons that do something an existing weapon already does will either powercreep the existing weapon or will be discarded once it turns out that it doesn't.

On 6/28/2024 at 2:06 AM, Magmi.6723 said:

When there’s no ranged vs melee balancing, melee is pointless with all the ranged condi weapons. 

I don't think this is likely to hold indefinitely, though. There's a growing pressure to nerf the near-full ranged condi virtuoso, and if and when that happens, people might well start looking at condition necro as well.

[Purple Effects.2503]

35 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think this is likely to hold indefinitely, though. There's a growing pressure to nerf the near-full ranged condi virtuoso, and if and when that happens, people might well start looking at condition necro as well

Might be pressure to do it, however I find it unlikely to happen, I believe this is done intentionally to push accessibility to content through easier builds.

35 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

think considering the needs of the profession as a whole is important when making weapons for the health of the profession. A weapon that doesn't fit in with what the profession wants to do isn't going to work well, and the profession as a whole suffers when there's an option it really needs that it doesn't really have.

Any weapon can fit in though. It doesn’t need to specifically be something brand new, to realistically hold it.

35 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Mesmer was just on the cusp of having a healing build - rifle plus a few trait buffs pushed it over the line, and while the people who just wanted another DPS weapon might not like it, it was revolutionary for the support players

So it’s a weapon for 2% of the playerbase sure. 

I ain’t arguing that it didn’t work for what it’s susposed to do.

i am arguing the fact, that when a weapon is this niche, the core majority of players go into a expansion with NOTHING new, which is a huuge problem in a game that has set the bar at a level where this is a absolute expectation, 

it feels bad. When you spend money on a game and 0 changes.

If Janthirs weapons followed this same pattern, buying the expansion would be 100% redundant, 

it ain’t selling you a new level cap, it ain’t selling you new gear, this expansion isn’t of any real improvement to you if the weapon is worthless, that in itself is a problem for the game to solve. 

you can’t sell em another meta event, while retaining all the others to be absolutely equal to it. And consider it a selling factor. 

if your gonna ship a new thing to front load the reason to buying a expansion, making it that niche doesn’t work. 

elite specs simply allowed support choices to exist without being strictly bound to support, stand alone weapons however have to gap the fact their the sole choice of said role introduction. 

 

Edited Saturday at 06:01 PM by Magmi.6723

[Purple Effects.2503]

37 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The weapons that really succeed are those that fill a need or that open up new options. Weapons that do something an existing weapon already does will either powercreep the existing weapon or will be discarded once it turns out that it doesn't

I don’t consider weapons used by 2% of the player to be successes though realistically. 

I consider them failures, the objective of changes is the hit the majority, not invest in the niche corners, yes support has to exist, but objectively we are at the point where every role exists for every class. How much further can you really go… 

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Purple Effects.2503 said:

Might be pressure to do it, however I find it unlikely to happen, I believe this is done intentionally to push accessibility to content through easier builds.

We'll see. Generally when enough discontent builds up about a particular build being dominant, something gets done about it sooner or later, even if it sometimes takes a while. Remember firebrand?

14 hours ago, Purple Effects.2503 said:

I don’t consider weapons used by 2% of the player to be successes though realistically. 

I consider them failures, the objective of changes is the hit the majority, not invest in the niche corners, yes support has to exist, but objectively we are at the point where every role exists for every class. How much further can you really go… 

Is this a "98% of the playerbase only plays open world" thing? Sure, healing weapons generally aren't relevant for open world, but if they want anything other than open world to be successful, not every weapon can be judged purely on how suited it is for open world roaming. But they're getting used in competitive and in instanced PvE. I'd consider that more of a success than one more open-world-oriented weapon that either overshadows or is overshadowed by an open-world-oriented weapon that already exists.

Mind you, both warrior staff and ranger maces do function fairly well in open world, it's just mesmer rifle that's a bit too support-focused to be used outside of being the altruist that switches to a full heal build to keep people alive in high-danger meta-events.

[Purple Effects.2503]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Is this a "98% of the playerbase only plays open world" thing? Sure, healing weapons generally aren't relevant for open world, but if they want anything other than open world to be successful, not every weapon can be judged purely on how suited it is for open world roaming. But they're getting used in competitive and in instanced PvE. I'd consider that more of a success than one more open-world-oriented weapon that either overshadows or is overshadowed by an open-world-oriented weapon that already exists

Nothing to do with this, was exactly as I stated,

with a elite specs it is possible through new traits to create Several builds instead of 1. 

look at firebrand, that brought several Support builds to guardian, yet it also brought a condi dps Role. Druid, tempest these have all seen DPs builds while being generally support concepts. 

I ain’t saying support can’t exist, I’m saying support requires MORE effort to prevent being a niche option, support chrono is good because it’s fotm as soon as they decide to juggle up the support roles, it will be a dead weapon, there is nothing else it can possibly do outside of being a meta DPS which will in time disappear. 

Edited Sunday at 10:11 AM by Purple Effects.2503

[draxynnic.3719]

20 minutes ago, Purple Effects.2503 said:

Nothing to do with this, was exactly as I stated,

with a elite specs it is possible through new traits to create Several builds instead of 1. 

look at firebrand, that brought several Support builds to guardian, yet it also brought a condi dps Role. Druid, tempest these have all seen DPs builds while being generally support concepts. 

I ain’t saying support can’t exist, I’m saying support requires MORE effort to prevent being a niche option, support chrono is good because it’s fotm as soon as they decide to juggle up the support roles, it will be a dead weapon, there is nothing else it can possibly do outside of being a meta DPS which will in time disappear. 

While the best heal support might change over time, I sincerely doubt that heal chrono is going to be completely knocked out of the meta any time soon.

[Purple Effects.2503]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

While the best heal support might change over time, I sincerely doubt that heal chrono is going to be completely knocked out of the meta any time soon.

Time length isn’t that relevant to the fact it’s impossible for it to serve any other purpose.

The issue isn’t the support weapon, rifle is success at what it does for chronomancer 

the issue is they had to create a professions stand alone weapon, to be so niche and directed in the first place. 

Mesmers asked for years, for an elite hard spec with bow and support. Mesmers had a support specc originally. 

the issue is the weapons are now having to fix the problems created through them making elite specs too similar to one another 

we now have chronomancer, mirage and virtuoso which are all damage orintated, regardless of the want for a proper instilled support elite specs. 

Tempest, spectre and scourge are all amazing examples of support classes which were dynamic and supported several playstyles. 

they waited years to give Mesmer support with chrono to then Gut it and over 5 years later use a weapon to bandaid the original act. 

virtuoso should have been bard, support should have had a deeper options then being so niche we can only support in one specific way with one specific weapon, while a elite spec could have had traits which allowed several weapons to be used in a supportive way as well as offering a more dynamic skill set, 

Edited Sunday at 01:26 PM by Purple Effects.2503

[draxynnic.3719]

Having issues with elite specialisation design doesn't mean the weapon was a failure. Chrono was never a good healer until rifle, and was pretty much always at least a functional boondps, it just dropped in popularity when it was no longer able to provide both quickness and alacrity while having a monopoly on both. It was doing well as a boondps before rifle, rifle enabled heal chrono to exist as well.

We do need another round of elite specialisations generally, although I strongly disagree with your assessment of the current mesmer elite specialisations, but mesmer rifle absolutely succeeded at what it intended to do. Meanwhile, every elite specialisation being at least somewhat functional as a DPS is a result of the majority of playtime being open world - something as big as an elite specialisation cannot be something that's only viable for raids (which was druid's problem until condi druid was reworked recently). Weapons, however, can and sometimes should be more specialised.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Deleted post.

Edited Monday at 03:28 PM by Gaiawolf.8261

[Gaiawolf.8261]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:57 AM, Purple Effects.2503 said:

why? Because you can only throw a spear once, lol. That’s just factual I’m afraid.

Never heard of a Returning Weapon? Maybe low level characters can only throw it once, but by level 80 you can probably afford a magic spear. If you're still having trouble, I have a grandmaster huntsman that can hook you up with the proper enchantment. 😉

[Purple Effects.2503]

5 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Never heard of a Returning Weapon? Maybe low level characters can only throw it once, but by level 80 you can probably afford a magic spear. If you're still having trouble, I have a grandmaster huntsman that can hook you up with the proper enchantment. 😉

Plot armour Carries us all to the finish line 

[StraightPath.3972]

I did not try every spear out there, but imho Necro needs more time in the oven,
while Warrior needs to be re-done from scratch.

Ironically while I don't main the professions, I found Mesmer and Thief Spears to be fun and much better deals.
I can't speak about weapon's raw power as I'm no expert on these two, but their kits felt much more well thought out
and well-rounded in combat than above two.

Thief is given a choice at every step between raw damage or sustain/mobility/utility and gets a weapon block which is huge for this profession.
Mesmer has some really nice eye candy on their spears and that melee aoe cleave with spear ambush is just so juicy!

[Purple Effects.2503]

1 hour ago, StraightPath.3972 said:

I did not try every spear out there, but imho Necro needs more time in the oven,
while Warrior needs to be re-done from scratch.

Ironically while I don't main the professions, I found Mesmer and Thief Spears to be fun and much better deals.
I can't speak about weapon's raw power as I'm no expert on these two, but their kits felt much more well thought out
and well-rounded in combat than above two.

Thief is given a choice at every step between raw damage or sustain/mobility/utility and gets a weapon block which is huge for this profession.
Mesmer has some really nice eye candy on their spears and that melee aoe cleave with spear ambush is just so juicy!

That’s because the weapons thief and Mesmer got remain in their strengths, while other options didn’t.

Necromancers spear core problem is can a “assassin” style weapon fit the Necromancer class, its kinda statically in the team fighter role due to how necro mechanically works. 

not only this, power necro is in a pretty poor state PvP wise to begin with. That’s not to say spear can’t work. It’s simply a case of more needs to exist to support it. 

Edited 16 hours ago by Purple Effects.2503

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Purple Effects.2503 said:

That’s because the weapons thief and Mesmer got remain in their strengths, while other options didn’t.

Necromancers spear core problem is can a “assassin” style weapon fit the Necromancer class, its kinda statically in the team fighter role due to how necro mechanically works. 

not only this, power necro is in a pretty poor state PvP wise to begin with. That’s not to say spear can’t work. It’s simply a case of more needs to exist to support it. 

I think guardian is also remaining in its strengths, but it's doubling down on close range AoE which is a bit niche.